Toasts are bad UX for an app which is used in a casual context, yes. The odds that an untrained user missed them and becomes confused are quite high.
But there is nothing wrong with a toast in a pro app. The pro user will get used to where feedback comes from on the screen and find it is second nature to notice the toast.
In practice, there are very few UX principles that generalize across every interface.
I will say as someone with a limited visual field, toasts are very frustrating as they're almost always out of my field of view. Please keep indicators/notifications close to the thing that caused it.
Saving, when instant, does not need to notify the user. Not every action needs to notify the user.
As seen in the article, do we need a notification following a click to every checkbox? In most cases, the user should assume that the action is completed the moment it's taken. If not, you can add an inline loader and show a regular, maybe modal error if it happens.
"Save" actions, with the exceptions of large data, does not need further UI. Particularly the circle should be seen as a marker of the current state, not as a way to tell whether your action has completed successfully, so you shouldn't view it as a "10x more subtle notification"
Do you have a video or screenshot of this? I don't daily drive a mac so I'm having trouble recalling (I also am not sure what you mean by saving a document, in which context?). But regardless, I don't think a toast would serve me better there, that doesn't mean that ux doesn't suck either :)
The pro will train himself to whatever good or bad thing you'll throw at him. The point is not about identifying generalization that works everywhere, it's just to have enough care for making the good choices at the right places.
Just because somebody will put up with it doesn't make it a good choice. That rationalization has been used to justify a lot of awful decisions and awful software.
I actually think the opposite. Toasts in my professional tools are even more objectionable to me. They're never where I'm concentrating, and by the time I realize one is happening and look at it, it's either already gone or is saying something trivial.
The end result is usually that I've been distracted for no reason.
Classic. People that are bad at UX design using the “pro app” catch-all to justify all sorts of bad decisions.
I spend all day in “pro apps”. I am also visually impaired. The inappropriateness of toasts has nothing to do with my familiarity with the app. I may, eventually, learn that a particular UI is using toasts to indicate something. That doesn’t suddenly make it okay. They’re still a massive pain in the ass for me. They’re still a massive pain in the ass for a lot of people. They’re still a poorly thought out holdover from the days of 640x480 displays, and with a modern resolution they’re even less appropriate.
You have also used a catch-all, but yours was personal and rude. The rest of your point is useful…just please remember that there are real people typing words into this app.
To respond to your point,
(1) is it a PITA because it’s hard to see something in the periphery or for some other reason?
(2) Is there an example of a web app that you’ve noticed provides feedback very well?
(3) would you consider a toast acceptable when the UX designer doesn’t consider the information critical? As in…the user can safely assume their action was accomplished but a little feedback is a nice sugar.
> bad at UX design using the “pro app” catch-all to justify all sorts of bad decisions
No, pro apps actually have completely different UX requirements.
In a pro app, the UX requirement is to be able to perform actions QUICKLY and RELIABLY, meaning it works the same way every time with a minimal number of steps.
This leads to "cluttered" interfaces with lots of information, because this way actions can be performed quickly AND results/data are always in the same place so it's reliable. Take an IDE with multiple panels with output going in/out. Quick to see what you need to, everything is sectioned off so you know right where to look, and everything is one or two clicks away.
However, casual apps have almost opposite requirements! They need to be non-intimating and simple. Simple is at odds with quick to use IF the use case is complex. Simple and quick to use can ONLY coexist in a scenario that is simple in it of itself, i.e. not a pro app but a simple app.
But there is nothing wrong with a toast in a pro app. The pro user will get used to where feedback comes from on the screen and find it is second nature to notice the toast.
In practice, there are very few UX principles that generalize across every interface.