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Ask YC: Cars?
31 points by icey on Dec 26, 2008 | hide | past | favorite | 160 comments
I know that most of the "Asks" that we get here are business and tech related; but I get the feeling that hackers tend to be car people as well (I know I am).

Anyways, I'm in the market for a new car. I had an embarrassing situation recently where I picked someone up from the airport in my 2-seater and couldn't fit their luggage in my (tiny) trunk.

So, I thought I'd solicit the hacker opinion - What do you guys drive? Do you like it? Is it fun?

I'd like to keep it under 50k, used is fine too, if it's something you'd recommend. If you know something that's definitely worth it, but more than 50k; I guess I'd like to hear about that too - I just have a hard time buying a car that costs more than the house I grew up in.

I live in a car town, so bicycles aren't an option!




If you have to ask YC for an idea of what car you want to buy, don't spend $50k for a car. Buy a decent used car for $6 to $10k, or a new car for $15 to $20k (I bought a Honda Fit; it's nice), bank the rest of the money, and wait.

I won't say you shouldn't blow $50k on a car -- I have friends who drive autocross and are really into cars -- but if you don't already have a short list of performance cars that you lust for you should just drive a compact Honda or Toyota for a while and be done with it.

What's wrong with the two-seater, again? Can't you just rent or borrow a car when you have to pick people up at the airport? You can rent a lot of cars for $50k. ;)


I would personally recommend a Honda Fit (Jazz in other parts of the world). Incredibly reliable, very good fuel economy, it's pretty cheap and has loads of storage space.

It's also been rated in the top 5 for several years in Top Gear's Car Survey, (I can't seem to find the other years).

http://www.topgear.com/content/carsurvey/2006/features/01/1....

http://www.honda.co.za/main.aspx?ID=128


My advice is to buy a used Volvo. I'm currently driving a 20 year old Volvo wagon and have to say there are not many cars that could be in such good shape for the age and miles, and same is true for my last Volvo. With a car that old I'm spending more on maintenance than I would like but I reckon any Volvo up to 10 years old with a good service history is probably going to be the best deal around.


This may end up being the answer, to be honest. I am very into cars; but my tastes lean strongly towards the impractical (hence the two-seater).


Impractical, eh? My racing friend has a trailer that he tows behind his Honda S2000. Get one of those and your luggage problems will be over, in a gloriously impractical fashion.

Incidentally, the Miata and the S2000 seem to be pretty fun cars, although I'm too tall for one and too cheap for the other. When I lived in CA I owned a 1986 Toyota MR2; that was lots of fun too, and with a gloriously quirky mid-80s dated look. Bought it for like $6k, and it ran flawlessly, perhaps because it was a Toyota, but more likely because it had been cared for by an obsessive car person for a decade and a half. I salute that guy.

Gratify your tastes! To hell with mere practicality! Give a cabbie $100 and have him to go pick up your friend at the airport! ;)


Why two-seaters ? For $50k you can buy a fscking big SUV :-). I myself am a happy owner of 3-doors Mitsubishi Pajero (Montero) 3.2 turbo diesel with climat, GPS navigation, TV/DVD and rear-veiw camera. It fits everything in it pretty well, including my huge fridge I once tranported to repair-store :). And it's very moderate on fuel consumption as any other diesel made in japan.


Many car enthusiasts like cars with quick acceleration and responsive handling. Since A=F/M, that tends to mean cars that weigh less than average. Cars with fewer seats and less, well... car tend to weigh less.


I've had the Fit for over a year now and I worship it. It's as if Honda put the smartest engineers on some of the more 'mundane' things you find in a car. For example, the back seat design is brilliant. They fold all the way down for an entire flat space in the back, or flip up for putting in tall objects, like a bicycle.


I drive a toyota tacoma. The Taliban and African warlords use them as lightweight tanks. They literally never die. My lifestyle takes me off road and in deep snow frequently and I would never get anything else. I've just kicked it's ass for 100k miles and I've done nothing but scheduled maintenance. If you need more than a car get a tacoma. If you don't, they are a complete pain in the city and you'll drive yourself nuts.

Whatever you do you should buy Japanese. I beat up a subaru wagon for 150k near flawless miles before selling it for a good price. They are great. My friends have also had great luck w/ honda's.


yeah Top Gear did an episode on the Tacoma...they dropped one from a 10 story building, drowned it in an Ocean, lit it on fire and they were able to start it afterwards w/o any new parts.

Here is the episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uc4Ksz3nHM + drop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZDtC9kjVk


"The Taliban use them as lightweight tanks" is possibly the most effective endorsement that we'll never see on TV.


I have a 1995 Tacoma at 135Kmi and a 2003 Corolla at 85Kmi. I'd buy either one again, but the damn things won't break. Recommended heartily.


You should decide on criteria - what is important to you?

When I have realized that over 40,000 people die every year in car accidents in US I have decided to reduce my chances and focus on safety first. This means a lot of air-bags, all-wheel-drive, stabiltiy, traction and abs. Also a powerful engine and agile steering so that I can steer out of trouble and ramp-up quickly when I need to. This has reduced my choice considerably.

Next criteria was larger trunk space, so I figured it will have to be a crossover or a station wagon.

Further, I wanted good reliability (better than what I had from my previous Olds) - my time is too valuable to mess with repairs.

Lastly, I wanted it to look good within my budget (<$40k).

This actually narrowed my choice to two vehicles: Subaru Legacy Turbo and Acura RDX. My girlfriend then broke the tie in favor of the better-looking vehicle (the RDX). So far I am very pleased with all core criteria. The only thing that gives me grief is trunk space - I want it to be bigger still. One (very rare) feauture that I still want is remote start so that I can into a warm car.

If I were to raise my budget by $10k it will begin to include Acura MDX, Infinity FX35 and maybe a couple of others. Another $10k and I would start looking at Porsche Cayenne.


If you are worried about getting in to car accidents, don't get a heavy truck or car with a high point of gravity.

If you drive somewhere where there's snow or ice, proper winter tires will give you more safety than all wheel drive.

Electronics can only mitigate the bad characteristics of an SUV, electronics can not break the laws of physics. A lighter car can brake more quickly. A proper car can turn faster without loosing traction or turning over. Accelerate faster, drive faster in general, drive further and use less gas than an SUV.

Of the vehicles mentioned, the Subaru sounds like the safest car. A Volvo V70 is an another wagon that's safe. If you are not going off road, why not get a station wagon instead of an SUV?

Another good safety feature is driver education. Knowing how to handle the car at the limits.


Rather than theorize about "trucks" or "high center of gravity" you should look at actual vehicles and their test results.

RDX, MDX and Legacy have the same safety ratings. Stopping distance difference is within 6%. Acuras are a lot closer to a performance sedan than to an F150 in terms of handling.


That it doesn't handle as awful like an pickup truck doesn't say much.

There is just no getting around mass. If the car weighs more and has the weight higher up, that is bad for handling.

A Subaru Impreza WRX STi is faster than a Porsche Cayenne GTS around the Nordschleife, even though the Cayenne has a lot more power. A Cayenne gets beaten by hatch backs, sedans and station wagons on a track. It just doesn't stand a chance with all that mass.


Smaller size alone makes avoiding an accident easier. There are simply more spaces lacking things to hit in to which the car will fit.

If you're a good driver, balanced handling beats electronic stability control. If you're average, by all means, get the computer safety-net to take over.


For one ting RDX is actually shorter than Legacy.

For another your claim about smaller size being safer is just a guess, which I can counter with another guess "larger size makes your easier to see and so less likey to get hit".


I was speaking generally - on paper, the RDX compares well to the Legacy in terms of handling, size, braking and acceleration. I haven't driven one, so I can't comment on its driving dynamics, though I suspect the Legacy would be easier to control under extreme conditions, as reviews I've read claim it's more neutral.

As for size, I'll stand by my claim. If it's a guess, it's an educated one. To provide an extreme example, imagine several scenarios where you've had to swerve to avoid a road hazard in your car. Now imagine that your car was the size of a bus, but with the same handling. Could you still have avoided the hazard?


You're tunneling on one particular example of a potential accident. Instead, you should look at overall probability of getting in trouble across all possible scenarious, not just one particular case. Smaller vehicle might be twice as likely to avoid a hazard, but it may have 4 times the chance of being overrun by a truck, so it may still come out as a net loser in the end.

Imagine all the cases when you did not get into an accident because other drivers knew to stay away from you.


Fifty thousand dollars is an extravagant amount to spend on basic transportation. You could later end up wishing you had that cash in hand.

You can get a decent, reliable, functional used Corolla or similar for $5,000 to $8,000. If you are confident enough in your mechanical skills at assessing the cheaper cars, you can go less than $3,000. If you are in the middle of starting up a business and don't have the time and need the reliability and trunk space, just buy a used Corolla or Chevy Prizm ( the Prizm is a Corolla with the price reduced due to the GM hood emblem ) and spend the rest of your money on things that matter.

I currently drive a 1988 VW Jetta with more than 200,000 miles, and my other cars have included a Volvo that I finally killed with 333,000 on the odometer. I have enough mechanical knowledge to fix minor things, and I drive slowly gingerly, so I am pretty good at beating the last 100,000 miles out of a car that the previous owner was about to take to the junkyard.

Don't be like me, it probably isn't worth it in the long run. Buy a reliable car less than 7 years old with less than 100,000 miles on it if possible, and spend around $5,000. Don't spend anywhere close to $50,000 on a motor vehicle for basic transportation -- the only things that would justify that would be sports cars, RVs, and possibly specialized work vehicles.


I have the Mazdaspeed 3. It's basically a souped up version of the Mazda 3. It's less expensive than many of the other cars mentioned (which I also looked at) but is far and away the most fun car I've ever driven. Can do a sub 6 sec 0-60, is a hatchback so doesn't catch the eye of the police (side benefit is that it will fit your friends' bags), and gas milage is good.

Never thought I'd drive a hatch, but this thing is a beast without looking super pretentious.


I have a Mazda 6 sport and love it to bits. Driven the Mazda 3 before and it was ok, but if you want the full effect I'd get the 6.

Whatever car you choose though, don't get an automatic. Please!


Mazda 6s here, love it as well


I'll second the MS3 - it is a very fun car to drive and has amazing handling for the price. Like kcy said, since it's a hatchback you'll have plenty of space.

Comparable cars include the Volkswagen GTI, Subaru WRX, Audi A3 - Lined up against those, the MS3 is slightly quicker and is less aggressive looking (IMHO).


Hmmm, this is an interesting one that I really hadn't thought about. My wife, brother, sister, and my carpool partner all drive Mazda 3s and LOVE them.

I may be checking this one out. Thanks!


Glad you'll be checking out the Mazdas! I would just mention to make sure to check out the Mazdaspeed line. Despite the similar sounding names, the Mazdaspeed 3 is far superior to the Mazda 3.


I don't know if anyone reads the follow-ups to these, but I went out and test drove a MS3 yesterday, and I ended up buying one this morning!

Thanks again for the tip to check it out, I hadn't really thought about it; and it was the perfect solution to my problem - Still fast enough to be fun, but I can also put things in it if I need to pick someone up from the airport or go buy a chair or something.

I'll be out driving!


Ha! That's great! So glad to hear you found the right car for the job. Go Hacker News!


I was very impressed with the MPS3 (Mazdaspeed in the US). I was expecting it to be like the SP23 line - sporty looking, but the same internals. Blew me away. It is FWD though - not sure if that's going to be a concern.

Surprised no-one has mentioned the BMW 135i Haven't driven one, but everyone I've talked to has been pretty impressed.


135i not mentioned because OP wants more room.. not something the 135i can offer. But it is a spectacular car. You know it has 6 piston brakes? Not even the new M3 has 6-piston brakes. And with an ECU tweak it can do 380hp.


If you are getting a Mazda 3 of any sort in a climate where you might be driving through snow, _please_ purchase some good all-weather/snow tires.

The three Mazda3's I've sat in or driven have all had extremely poor winter handling. Better tires solved the problem in at least one case.


you should be buying a dedicated set of winter wheels/tires anyways. It really not that much money, all things considered. You'll recoup the cost the second you avoid sliding into a tree or rear-ending the car ahead of you.


Buy an used 2008 -- I'm seeing loads of people dumping their new cars -- Honda or Toyota econobox and use the rest of that money for something else more important.


Another point: if your theoretical limit is ~$50K, don't spend that much on the car itself. Multiply it by maybe 2/3 or 3/4 and spend that amount; then buy yourself the best tires, brakes, and suspension parts (optional) that you can afford without going over what you wanted to spend.


buying used is usually a very good option. the car will lose the most value in its first year. buying used tends to mean someone else is taking that hit for you.


Have to be careful you're not getting a lemon though. If you don't know the seller personally, take it to a mechanic you trust and have them fully inspect the car. Probably a good idea even if you do know the seller.

That's the reason I'm about to get a new car - I'm moving across the country, I don't know any of the possible sellers or any of the area mechanics or dealerships, and I really don't want to deal with all the car maintenance stuff on top of all the other stuff that comes with living in a new area. Otherwise I'd buy used. And I run cars into the ground - I expect to get 10-15 years usage out of this one.


There are dealer-certified used cars, too, available from new-car dealerships. The best are the demo cars that they drive up to around 5,000, then sell. It's much cheaper than new, and you still can be confident it's not a lemon (possibly more so than with a new car).


Buy used. $50k used car is a better deal and a better car than $50k new car. Car is an asset, and its total cost of ownership has less to do with its price than where it is in its depreciation curve. $50k new car means $10-15k depreciation in the first year. You can buy just about anything used for less TCO.

Another thing to consider is having 2 cars. By buying a second car that depreciates less (it's cheaper, older, etc.) you actually save money. And with 2 cars you can go no-compromise on both ends of the spectrum.

Recommendations: E39 M5, E60 M5, C5 Z06, 996 911 GT3 or TT, Ferrari F550. Second car: Honda Odyssey, Honda Accord


The "first cars" you've listed are (from experience, in some cases) expensive to maintain; the M's will also suck anywhere it gets cold, as will (heh) the Ferrari.


Expensive to maintain -- agreed except on the Vette. And you'd want winter tires in a cold place. But for all of them, the difference is less than depreciation on a new $50k car. Ferrari is different of course, but $25k of depreciation (new car for 3 years) may cover even that.

The point is not that GT3 is a frugal choice, but that buying a new car is an extravagance, and for the same cost you could be driving a vastly better car.


You really ought to have winter tires on any car. People tend to think rear wheel drive cars need it more because it looks more dramatic when you loose control, but understeering head-first in to a guard rail is just as bad for you as spinning out.

Even four wheel drive won't do much for you if you enter a corner too fast, assuming you don't have a rally driver's skill set. Control requires traction. Traction comes from tires. Get appropriate tires for your driving conditions.


You don't want a rear-wheel drive car in a place where the roads get icey.


You don't want front-wheel drive, either. I drove a Taurus in New Hampshire for a couple of years, and it was downright unstable on snow. Geting out of a driveway turned into an adventure too often. A four-wheel drive car is wonderful in a place with some semblance of real winters. Subaru and Audi make great non-truck style cars with four-wheel drive.


My parents (and later, me) have driven Sentras, Civics and Accords in suburban Boston with no major problems. We get about 3 times as much snow/slush/wintry-mix as the city itself, close to New Hampshire levels. If you're experienced driving in snow, it's not really a problem.

4WD is, of course, nicer. But I don't want people to think they have to have a 4WD vehicle if they live in a snowy place.


BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Saab, Volvo, Chrysler/Dodge and Mazda also offer 4wd on various real cars - mostly performance models.


Like Zak said, the drive wheels don't have much to do with actual driving dynamics. That's all tires and differentials.

Four wheel drive is great for a lot of reasons, but in the winter it's only real benefit is acceleration - getting you unstuck or up hills. You're not less likely to crash while moving in an S4 as compared to an M3.


Well, I drive pretty regularly in an RWD M3, an AWD A6, and a FWD Volvo S40, and I'll tell you the M3 isn't my first choice on ice. Yes, tires are important. You still want AWD.


I'm in a similar boat, and as far as I can tell, ability > tires > drive wheels. It isn't that they aren't important, but people tend to place faaaaaaar too high a value on drive layout for winter driving.

Now, on the track, it makes a BIG difference. In the snow, however, your goal is safety... not competitive times.


What do you drive? Honda Fit. Do you like it? We don't think about it, so that's great. Is it fun? It's a car.

Had a super nice, super expensive, super luxury sedan before it.. I didn't like the attention and hassle.

Space-wise, heck, I like to touch my wife. Seriously, it's got plenty of space for me (6'4") and my family (4). I moved a large-ish desk in it last week, and airport runs go smoothly. It'd only be small if we got fat.


Pretty big gearhead here. My most important requirements:

price < $20,000, weight < 3500 lbs, go > 200 hp / torque, rear or four wheel drive, fully independent suspension, limited slip differential, manual transmission available, four seats

The reasonable contenders:

2000-2004 Audi S4 (even though it's too heavy)

96-99 BMW M3

1999-2004 BMW 3-series (non M)

2002-2005 Lexus IS300

2005-2006 Saab 9-2X (WRX in disguise)

2002-2005 Subaru Impreza WRX

2004 Volkswagen Golf R32

2005-2006 Volvo S40 T5-AWD

Out of all of those, the old M3 is my personal favorite... followed closely by the IS300. For the price range, I can't recommend anything not on this list. My personal experience is relatively frequent hobbyist track racing & autocross, lots of test driving, and loads of greasemonkeying.


Worth noting that late model M3s hold their value particularly well.


A 99 'M3 (I own 1 now, and have owned 3) is not a late-model M3, and it hasn't held its value well.


Try a luggage rack.


This reminds me of the whole, "NASA spent $100k developing a pen for space and the Russians used pencils" story.


Which story, in addition to being apocryphal, was also debunked.


http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/s/spacepen.htm


At the heart of each joke is a grain of truth.


And russia now uses the space pen - as it has advantages over pencil (namely - the led doesn't break and float around)


A car is a simple utility. Find something cheap and reliable that you wouldn't feel bad about smashing up. I have a '99 Accord with nearly 100k miles on it that has never had an issue, despite being banged up pretty good.


I'm not a car person, but I'm a luxury person, and I have an Rx350. I've had it for 2 years, moved cross country twice in it, and I still love it more every time I drive. The attention to every little detail is astounding. What makes you love it are the little things you wouldn't even think matter that much like the backup camera (I laughed at this and let me tell you, I couldn't live without it now), rain sensing wipers, automatic lights that turn on and off themselves and turn with you as you steer, ample cupholders including one by a vent so you can keep your drink warm in the winter, ability to save seat positions and revert to them with one button push, homelink garage door built in, variable temperature seat warmer, phenomenal traction control (I drove 9 hours home in a blizzard once, laughing at all of the cheaper cars swerving uncontrollably off the road), the suspension that makes railroad tracks nearly unnoticeable, seats so comfortable I'm trying to figure out how to get one for my office. I could go on and on.

And their GPS is unbeatable. Now when I rent a car, I get those Garmins and just end up pissed at how unusable they are. I test drove an Accura and the GPS crashed on me.

Despite being an SUV, it's fast enough that anything faster would just get me into trouble. I laugh at douchebags who have racing spoilers on their Civic, since me in my soccer mom car could smoke them off the line.

And you'll be able to fit luggage for 4 with ease. Buy that car, you won't regret it. The total cost of ownership is surprisingly low for the sticker price given Lexus's value retention and craftsmanship. I'm pretty sure mine was just under $50k fully loaded.


You need to provide some context about what you like/want/need in a car.

Do you want horsepower, handling, interior luxury, technological doodads, room for a family, three dogs, do you drive in the snow, do you race, is gas milage a big deal, what kind of styling are you into, do you like doing your own maintenance, do you want to mod it, how reliable does it need to be, etc...

I moved from a modified '99 Mitsubishi Eclipse to a '00 Audi S4 (which I LOVE). My criteria were:

I didn't want to spend of $20k, I wanted something over 300hp (used a chip to achieve this), I wanted it to handle/perform very well but to be more comfy/quiet/solid than the Eclipse, I didn't care about gas milage, I wanted something that had understated looks and didn't draw cop-eyes or look like a penis-surrogate, I wanted something with a strong modification community and vendors, I wanted something with bigger back seats than the Eclipse, I need all-wheel drive for snow, I wanted something I could track a few times a year.

The S4 is perfect for me (my next move will be to a 2009-2010 S4, S6 or RS4).


I never had much interest in cars. I want something safe and practical that will get me around. I'm about 6'3", and quite literally have a difficult time fitting comfortably into many modern sedan-like cars. (They seem to be getting smaller.) I occasionally need to transport some large-ish audio equipment around, so space is a plus.

To wit, I ended up with a Honda CR-V. It's roomy enough that I don't feel cramped, can hold most everything I need to carry on a semi-regular basis without being huge, and the top-of-the-line model costs around $25k (or, it did, when I got mine). Seems to have excellent safety ratings.

I've been very happy with it, but I'm sure car fans might fine my choice on the boring side...


Audi A4 with Quattro.


Audi is the understated luxury car.

The only visual difference between the A4 and the S4 (sports model, 2x in price) is a pair of chrome plated side mirrors. If this sort of understatement is your thing, you will love Audi. If you like your bling to be obvious, get the BMW. If you don't care either way, get Benz :-)

icey, given your price range, I would at least test drive an S4. It is a really good car, esp. if you like the actual process of driving.


Really? Everything I read about Audis when I was researching cars told me that:

A) they weren't very reliable. Not a huge deal with a good warranty, but an unreliable car is inconvenient as hell.

B) they have a high cost of repairs.

I think Audio and VW are good examples of marketing driven car brands.

If you want a reliably luxury car, a Lexus seems to be at the top.

Of course, the idea of buying a $50k car seems just plain ridiculous in this (or any) economy.


My dad drives a 4 year old Audi A6 and my friend drives an 8 year old A4; the A6 has had more maintenance issues than my (finicky) M3, but the A4 probably gets less than $200 of love a year and still runs fine.

If you drop $50k on a car, you don't get to complain how hard your startup is to fund. On the other hand, everything I hear says that now is a good time to buy silly cars, given the market.


I've had my 2003 A6 for 2 years now and haven't had anything go wrong that doesn't typically go wrong on a car that old (water pump, a couple of ignition coils, etc). My dealer charges somewhere around $90 or $100 per hour for labor, which is in line with any luxury car brand.


VWs are a good option for those with a more limited budget. They are fun to drive, hold their value, and some of the higher-end models (e.g., the Passat) offer similar drive trains and handling for much less. I've got a 4motion Passat wagon (4motion is exactly the same AWD system as Quattro) which cost several thousand dollars less than a (smaller cargo volume) A4 Avant. It's not quite as nicely appointed, but has all of the luxuries that one really needs. The VW Rabbit (and GTI, if you have a larger budget) is also a great vehicle. The GTI is far superior to the A3 (hatchback version of the A4) in everything but price.


I think this is the best option for most people. Audis are like Macs, they retain their value really well.


Unless they're intel macs.. then they get sold for the same price as the old G4s.


My experience with very nice cars is, it's fun to have a really nice car for the first 6-9 months. After that, you're still paying attention to cars --- you just dropped a shitload of money on one --- but you no longer have the best car for the money, because cars keep getting better. The year after I bought my car, they ported the euro manifold to the US model and boosted it by like 100hp. I never felt that kind of irritated when I was driving a Nissan Sentra.

There are probably better things in life to get hung up on than how awesome your car is going to be for a few months. Like, your retirement.


I've got a Honda Accord, and really love it.


Honda Civic here. Works for me.

Though one day I'd like something with a little more power ;)


The newer-model Civics (post-2003) seem really underpowered to me. I had first a 92 and then a 99, and they would literally jump out of an intersection, tires squealing. They had way too much power for the weight. The 03 Civic my parents just bought and the 04 my sister has seem downright sluggish on the highway. I dunno if it's because the car got a lot heavier, or if it's because of the automatic transmission (the older ones were stick-shifts, newer ones are not).


My all-time favorite car was a 95 Civic Sedan. It was an awesome car; and never had a single problem for the 75,000 miles I drove it (I bought it used and it came with 30,000 miles). I liked it so much I kept it and still drove it while I had my BMW. I might actually still be driving that car today except for the fact that I turned it upside-down :(.

When I broke my old Civic (in 01), I went to go get a new one but they didn't feel the same at all.


a good option. can't really go wrong with a popular honda or toyota model- reliable and extremely easy to find a place for repairs.


Well you have a number of choices...you really didn't tell us what you like.

I'm guessing Luxury/Performance, so I'd recommend the following: For a little bit more than 50K you can get a bare bones M3 Sedan or a C63 AMG.

But if you want to save money, you can look at a 335i, and then after you buy it, spend about 1K on ECU mods. Straight-line performance you'll be a little bit quicker than an M3.

But you really need to tell us what you want you like, since pretty much the only thing you said it that it needs to have 4 seats and be under 50K.


Is this forum really so wealthy that a casual recommendation for a $50k car seems normal to most of you? Or is this just posturing? Serious question.


There's probably enough people on the forum for whom that's a reasonable number that it's worth asking about it here. And honestly, even if you can't afford it, lots of people (techy guys in particular) tend to know a TON about nice cars which are out of their current price ranges. I can tell you all about the R8, and Bugattis, etc... but I sure can't afford one (and even if I could I probably wouldn't spend that much money on a car).

I've never bought a new car and never spent over $20k. That said, I've had some pretty serious success with my latest company, and my next car will probably be in the 50-75k range.


Your latest company appears to be one of the larger Java web consultancies in the market; maybe the 50-75k would be better spent starting your own shop. The 50-75k car --- isn't that how they get ya? ;)


I think you must be confusing me with someone else or something. I do some consulting through ClearLogic consulting which is a very small consulting company, but I was actually referring to Spark::red, a company I founded with a couple of other guys. It's a niche managed hosting provider and is definitely my "own shop" :)


Was looking at your profile box; you should update it. =)


50k is simply a lot of money for a car. Normal people don't spend 50k for a car. 50k has you outside the entry level for both Audi and BMW. But get a bunch of professional geeks talking about cars, and you're going to bias towards the 40-60k range of "aspirational" cars.


well its not like he is asking whether he should buy an F430 Scuderia or a 911 GT3-RS.

50K is really not that much for a car, all things considered. Most college grads end up with a 30K car after college anyways, even when they start with 40K salary.

So 50K for someone who is running a startup, which is beyond noodle profitable(I doubt someone would be buying something as big as a new car, if they weren't) seems pretty normal.


car payments and insurance on a $50k car is approximately half of post-tax income at a $40k salary.

and people wonder why the economy is shit?


A rule of thumb I've used is that your vehicle shouldn't cost more than 1/2 years salary. Just as a method of keeping things in proportion.

A $50K car on a $40K salary is basically a recipe for fail, based on some of icey's previous comments, I'm going to guess he's a tad above the $40K salary range.


While I appreciate everyone's concern for my financial well-being, I promise buying a car won't put me in the welfare line.

I said this elsewhere in the thread, but it's grown much larger than I'd expected - I don't expect to spend 50k on a car, but it at least provided some limitations - I mean, with an unlimited budget I'd go buy an Aston Martin Vanquish and use that for my daily driver.

Maybe there are people who aren't me who are interested in similar things. I didn't feel like over-limiting the question; I honestly didn't have the intention of making this a "Dear lazyweb, buy me a car plz ok?" sort of thread. I was genuinely interested in what sort of daily drivers hackers prefer.

For whatever it's worth, there have been some very interesting answers that have had me spending time at Edmunds looking up cars that I hadn't thought about checking out before.


I think the question skirted the bounds of HN - but I think you're just ok. For those complaining - this is likely (I haven't seen the stats) predominately male audience full of people who generally like gadgets/electronics/engineering/technology. There's going to be a lot of car-guy overlap into that.

I'm currently driving a Toyota Celica (and definately enjoy it) - although since toyota withdrew them a couple of years ago - your only choice is 2nd hand now.

And for my recommendations: 135i Mazdaspeed 3


Figure that the people with the $50k cars are making at least $70k -- not unreasonable at all for developers or successful freelancers.


Damn, that is insane. I lucked out and made $110k my first year out of college and rewarded myself with an almost brand-new Camry that had a couple of scratches for $12k. Now I'm kicking myself after finding out about the Chevy Prizm through this thread.

I can't believe someone who was making $70k (~45k after taxes/social-security) would trade in more than a year of 8 hour days 5 days a week in some shithole development job just to be able to commute in style (though perhaps he just wants to engage in parking-lot dick waving for some girl at the office; fine, I can believe it).


I got a new Elantra. I'm happy with it.


Seriously! Basic financial management needs to be taught in public schools... I'm blown away by some of the comments in this thread.


yeah, this does confuse me, also. but then again, i don't work in a major metropolitan area (yet). i suppose its priorities. i could afford a $50k car, but i'd be sacrificing so much other stuff that it just isn't worth it to me.


Realistically, I don't think I'll be spending nearly 50k; one of the other reasons for looking now instead of later is that there are some seriously amazing prices on cars lately. A lot of cars that list around the 50k neighborhood can be found very slightly used (12k miles or less) for a deep discount.

I'm not rolling around like Daddy Warbucks, but I have been fortunate enough to sell fragments of previous startups for enough that I don't feel like I need to pinch every penny. Unfortunately I spend enough time on the road (around 15 to 20 hours a week) that this is one place where I will spend a few extra dollars.


I personally don't like cars very much and use them only for getting from place to place. Bicycles are way better on so many levels: exercise, a sense of freedom, a beautifully efficient machine, something fun to do to get away from the computer, a quick means of getting from place to place over limited distances.

But I'm not a fanatic and cars are useful, so: whatever is functional and won't break down. Toyotas are pretty good that way, or at least those I've owned are.


To be clear, I absolutely wish I could ride a bike everywhere; sitting around in traffic just isn't fun and driving never feels as interactive as biking. But the fact of the matter is that everything around here is measured in miles away from where I'm at so bicycling isn't really an option for me unfortunately.


Sure, that's understandable, but you could also make some adjustments:

* Live in a more bike friendly place. Admittedly, that might be a pretty major change though.

* Wherever you live, structure things so that at least one or two things can be done by bike. I.e. live near enough so that you can at least go to work or somewhere else 'important' by bike. Maybe not every day, maybe not in all seasons, but it's a start.

Speaking for myself though, I think cycling is the perfect hacker sport, and wouldn't live anywhere where I couldn't ride my bike in terms of transportation and for fun:-)

Incidentally, where do you live? You're one of the many who have zero information in their profiles:-(


Another option is to get city carshare, zipcar, or any other car sharing service. I'm in SF, and I'm thinking about doing that myself -- I get to use a car when I want to, and it'll be less money than if I owned a car (which incurs insurance, maintenance, gas costs etc).

I ride my bike to work, so the only activity my car get is moving from one side of the street to the other.


Sorry, I'm in metro Phoenix, AZ.

I carpool to work right now, and we have a light rail system that starts service tomorrow. I'm planning to start taking it to work to shave off 17 miles or so of my commute, but the nearest rail station is still 5 miles away.

I would say I drive by myself maybe 5% of the time I go anywhere; I almost always group errands together to minimize commute; but with all of that I still log over 200 miles a week.

Moving isn't an option for me right now, I'm in the middle of an enormous project that I'm very interested in seeing to completion.


If you're on a road bike going 12 miles an hour, 5 miles is a fantastic 25-minute cardio workout.


Right now, a lot of car companies are getting reamed by the economy (obviously), stemming a lot from doling out leases and then seeing the values of the cars tanking with the economy, causing them to take large losses. As a result, it is difficult at some companies to get approved with favorable interest rates, whether you're buying or leasing, especially with the Big 3.

I'd start with seeing what kind of car you're compatible with by taking a look at http://www.carzen.com.

I recently bought a Volkswagen Jetta Wolfsburg Edition (same 2.0 turbocharged engine as the GTI and GLI but about $2500 less). Volkswagens retain their resale value (right up there with Mini), so they didn't lose much and are taking advantage of that by giving very favorable rates. Trust me, you can get a more expensive VW for less than other cars, just from the dramatic difference in interest rates. And their service is amazingly better than most other dealerships as well. Two of my roommates have since also gotten VW's.

I'm definitely a car person and autocross regularly. I've taken my Jetta to a track day at a race track we have nearby, and I'm completely satisfied with this thing.


Given your price range and the fact you own a two seater, it seems you're looking for something sporty. I'd suggest:

Infiniti G35 or G37. The former can easily be gotten completely loaded for under $35k (and possibly out the door if you pay cash and go for an unsold 2008 model). The latter can be a little pricier, but not by much.

I've got a 2007 G35 Coupe. Fully-loaded (except for four wheel steering), stickshift. Intense amount of fun to drive.

Prior to that I've had a 2006 G35 Sedan (was rear-ended on US-101 and the car was totaled; which is why I couldn't wait for the G37 to come out, I needed something I could drive soon).

Simply put, this is the most fun with four seats (and the lack of insurance premium due to being a "sports car") you'll have for under $40,000. Rear-wheel drive (AWD available on the sedan), real stickshift available (unlike on the IS350), sporty suspension, limited slip differential (the BMW 335 - which is $10,000 more expensive doesn't include that).

The big downside is fuel mileage (if I stay in fifth and sixth as possible as possible I can get a little over 26mpg, which is still dismal). This is slightly better in the newer models, but still - if you're looking for a fuel efficient car this isn't it. It also requires 91 octane (older models could take 89 and below if with an automatic, but that's not recommended).

Other downside is small trunk space on the 2007 coupe (the sedan is much better; not sure about the 2008 g37 coupe).

Also buy used, unless you're looking to build credit - which may not be the best time for it. When I got my first G35 (the sedan), I a) could get a certified deposit for a rate that is higher than what I am paying for the car b) was less than a year out of college, with no credit history.


I'm in a market for a new/additional car also, in a similar price range.

Right now I'm leaning towards a 2-3ish year old Jaguar XJR (going price: low-mid 30's) and then putting about 8K into the drivetrain to just build the piss out of it.

I love the look of the XJR's inside and out, and I've always loved something about the thought of building a luxury "sleeper" sedan.


I'm a fan of the small sedans - the Lexus IS, Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes C Class and Infiniti G37. They range from $32,000-$65,000, depending on the various options.

They're all great cars, and with the exception of the Lexus, they've all been redesigned within the last two years. The BMW leads the pack in performance, the Infiniti in bang for your buck, the Lexus for comfort and reliability, the Audi for features, and the Mercedes for (interior) technology and design. Naturally, opinions may vary on these issues.

They're all reasonably fuel efficient, reliable, safe, and fast. Test drive them all. It's fun.

Spec out the car you want, then call all the dealers within a few hundred miles. Take the best quote to the salesman who you test drove with and give them the option to match it.

Tada! Great new car.

Edit: Forgot the Cadillac CTS. I've heard good things, but I'd be a little caution about buying from a company about to go bankrupt. Sorry American auto industry.


i have a 2000 infiniti Q45 anniversary edition - insurance group coilovers, peak performance multilink, work euroline N in 19x9.5 ET8 19x10 ET-11. it's almost 6" lower than stock, and i'm running -7* camber. most car guys think i'm crazy for doing it, and i'm inclined to agree but it looks so cool! too bad it's so impractical: i got stuck on the driveway at in-n-out a few days ago, and i can't carry more than about 500lb in the car with me at any time (that includes passengers), otherwise i'll rub. the entire trip. or worse, pop the bead on the tires. oh well.

i'm thinking of selling it though and building a porsche 964, rauh-welt style:

http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/...

forgive me though, i just enjoy blathering on aimlessly about cars :)


the new Infiniti G35 sedan hands down, great value. Or if you want the coupe, I've driven a G37 coupe before and it is top notch as well.

I would recommend the BMW 335i but honestly it's too much for what you get, although the turbo 3L engine is beautiful and won an award recently for best engine of 2008 or some such.


the audi a4 2.0T is also pribably a good one to look at. I've driven the A3 with the same engine and it's pretty good. You look down and realize you are going 80+ without even thinking about it. The new design is pretty hot too. If you want something more sporty check out the s5 2 door sedan, although that probably tops out at 60k fully configured.


I had a 2001 330i and liked it quite a bit, but it did feel like it was a bit pricey in comparison to a comparable Lexus or Infiniti. It was a fun car though, and the newer ones are definitely on my short list.

I've also driven a couple of G35s that some friends have had and they also seem quite fun. The coupe gives me some pause though; I drive a 350z right now and iirc they are roughly the same with regards to trunk space. Although, I guess I'm not sure if the G37 has that irritating crossbar in the trunk that the Z has.


the infiniti is definitely a fast car, and fun to drive, but the interior to me feels so much cheaper than the comprable Lexus (IS series) or BMW. At least the G35. I haven't been in the new G37.


Hmmm, definitely agree about the interior feeling cheaper than a Lexus but I'm not sure I agree about a BMW (3-series). Even the M3 feels wayyy too plastic for my tastes.


The G37 shares the problem, the interior is indistinguishable from a Nissan.


I think 50k for a car is a bit ridiculous unless you're pulling in $150k+. For more modest salaries, a nice stylish car with some extras can be found with the VW Jetta, Saab 93, and Volvo S4. I drive a 93 and love it. It has, in my opinion, much better style than most American and Asian cars but is still cheaper than a German car. During GM employee price, I think the 93 started around 20k. I haven't looked at car prices during the auto market downfall, so I'm not sure where there at now.

The problem with any European car is upkeep. I can do my own brakes and other minor repairs, so I'm not so worried. If you don't have money to spare for repairs later on down the road, buy a Toyota or Honda. Parts and labor on European cars are a lot more than on more mass-produced cars.


I drive a 2004 Nissan Maxima SE and love it - a very versatile vehicle. Plenty of room in the trunk for luggage/groceries, great family car (I have a wife and kid) but it will also get up and go when it needs to (it's classified as a sports car by many insurance companies).

Remarkably, insurance isn't that bad - 25 y/o male and a 23 y/o female, full coverage, about $70 per month.

Gas mileage is great, I get about 28 mpg and it only costs $40 or so to fill the tank.

The only downfall I have is the tires - expensive to replace due to the sports car quality of the vehicle. You can't go with the cheap tire - they aren't as rigid. High torque on take-off and highway speeds will make cheaper tires flare out giving you poor handling.


The poster's profile suggests that he lives in Phoeniz, AZ, so snow isn't an issue unless he skiis. Heat, however, is.

For pure transportation, it's hard to beat the old model Scion xB. It's cheap, reliable, good on gas (I average 35 highway and city unless I drive 80), and has insane amounts of space. If you want more 50% power, get the newer model. (It's geared higher so you don't lose a lot of gas mileage.)

Yes, the old xB is fun to drive.

You can get the newer one new for well under $20. The older one used should be around $10k or maybe less.

So if you insist on spending $50k, you'll have $30-40k left to spend on a toy, your biz, a down-payment, etc.


I hear that the best fuel-efficient/hybrids will be released in late 09 and early 10. And further there is a good chance that Obama will offer incentives to buy a fuel efficient car. Waiting 6-9 months may be worthwhile.

If you can't wait, then I suggest a Prius (have not driven it myself - but its hard to get away from the positive buzz about this car).

If you'd like to give Detroit a hand - check out the ConsumerReports list of best American cars of 2008 - http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/03/american-top-p...


I hear that the best fuel-efficient/hybrids

So will they finally become cost-effective? All the data I've seen, and run personally, on the common hybrid make the TCO no cheaper than just buying an average car of similar size.

The only incentive I can see for current-tech hybrids is the eco-angle.


Well, the Prius is also just a nice car for gadget-lovers. Keyless entry, start-button ignition, big LCD dashboard, Bluetooth, GPS...


A WRX wagon and a Miata. You can get one of each for right around $50k - less if you buy used.

I have an old Miata. It sips gas, makes wonderful noises and is the second-best handling car I've ever driven. The best was a Formula V (that's an open-wheel race car made out of old VW parts - it's like a big go-kart with suspension and a transmission).

My roommates have a WRX. It's quick, handles pretty well and has plenty of room for luggage.

I also hear wonderful things about the Mazda RX-8. It's not so easy on gas, but it's supposed to handle like an oversized Miata. It can hold four real adults, and at least some of their stuff.


The RX-8 handles beautifully and is a lot of fun on the track... but it's woefully underpowered and very difficult to modify.

Very unfortunate, as it's such a great platform.


I'm a VW/Audi fan. So I'm going to recommend the GTI/Passat or an A3/A4.

For style/space I'd recommend the A3 (though the GTI isn't bad) or the Passat. I got a chance to drive my uncle's new passat (with hacked/tuned computer - squeezes like 65 more horses out of it) and thoroughly enjoyed it. Plenty of room inside the car which is important for me, I'm 6'7 and had no headroom/legroom problems. The GTI is pretty awesome as well.

All fall in your price range, pending options. But if you're going to be test driving some, check out the A3, Passat and GTI.


I highly - highly - recommend the Cadillac CTS. You'd probably pay a tad more than $50K for the CTS-V, which does 0-60 in sub-5.0, but that's a great option if you're a torque freak (like me).

Small enough to parallel park, and the thing has a fantastic note when you go 10-60 up an on-ramp to the interstate. Caddy's new "Cut and Sew" interiors beat the pants off of the Japanese and are warmer than the interiors of the Germans. And the pop-up navigation impresses everyone. It won 2008 MT COY not for nothing.


I really like cars but I'd find it hard to justify spending more than $35k on a new one unless it was a Porsche Carrera 4 or something like that. My winter ride is an Xterra which I love; the summer car is a 350Z which may have the same luggage problem you ran into :-)

I have seriously considered selling the Z and buying a Maxima -- need more room. I've owned three absolutely trouble free Nissans and I'd happily buy a used one that had been well cared for.


I'm currently driving a 350Z, so yes; same problem ;)


I drive an 08 Volkswagen GTI, and I've been thrilled with it. It's a nearly perfect blend of performance, style, practicality, efficiency, etc. Has been a Car & Driver 10Best for the past few years. They got all the little things right on this car, and I've never had anything so fun on a daily basis. Also very inexpensive compared to many cars people are mentioning here.


My '97 Chrysler Concorde just rolled over 100K a couple of days ago, and despite its 3.8L V6 it's still getting 27mpg highway. I'll second what someone said: It's just transportation. I get my fun outside of my car.

And give it a rest, cyclists. I am a HUGE leisure cyclist, but for many of us (me and OP, for example), replacing our car with a bike is simply impossible.


Audi A6: Classy, roomy and high performance. It is more a car for your image.

Audi A4 Turbo: Sporty, fast and reliable. If it is more than 4 year old I would recommend 5 spd. At least you won't have to deal with tranny issues.

Volvo S60: Sporty but not as reliable as the A4.

Mini Cooper.

If your paper is long enough and you want to impress look for an X5 or a Range Rover (girls digg these) or an american muscle car.


I absolutely love my Audi A6. I've had it for just over two years and am as happy with it now as they day I bought it. I highly recommend them. Get one fully loaded that's a year old to keep it in your price range. The A8 is an amazing car as well if you want to spend a bit more on it.


Honda Element. Waterproof seats & bottom--hose it down if you want. Seats completely fold up (like a van) or down (like a bed). Has a bunch of useful add-ons like a tent, trailer hitch, etc. Good mileage (v4). Etc, etc...check it out.


Be careful - if you hose out early model Elements, you'll short out the engine computer (which isn't in a sealed container even though the floor looks hoseable).


Before leaving to go YC SFP 2008, I was working at Volkswagen, so I have a slight bias towards VWs and Audis. They're fun cars. I might be able to still get some discounts, so PM me if you want, and I'll see if I can help you out.


I was just wondering what the Hacker Opinion on hair conditioners is? And maybe shoe polish? A lot of hackers seem to wear shoes, so Inquiring Minds Want To Know!

Uhm, can we please not have these threads here?


Not equivalent. As a "car guy" myself, I would be very surprised if there wasn't a strong correlation between hackers and gearheads. These are people who see a complex system, viewed simply as a utilitarian tool by most of society, and take it upon themselves to learn how it works. Some do this to be able to use it more efficiently, while others try to maximize or extend its performance. Sound familiar?

Oh, and +1 for the MazdaSpeed3; it's a great little car.


I ride bicycles.

It was interesting to me that I fell into a cycling social scene that was primarily composed of tech types.

They share the same characteristics. A deceptively "simple" system with many variables and infinite hackability.


Lots of cycles at our startup as well


Ah, yes, "Six Degrees of Hacker News"

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=242293


I drive a Pontiac Vibe which is really just a rebadged Toyota Matrix. I get ~30 mpg and have actually hauled a futon in it while moving. Lots of cargo space when the back seats are laid flat.


You should get one of these http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/car/8426/ when you decide.


why the impulse? do you often have to pick someone up?

after 3 years, the depreciation rate levels off for used cars so try 2005- cars

i have renault clio but don't use it often (once every quarter) ... not because i love the car, but because my basic transportation need is better covered with motorcycle (it's super crowded here with cars)

admittedly, clio was chosen because of the F1 double crown of renault+alonzo shrug ... maybe that's a flawed logic


No cars, public transport, unless local housing density can't sustain it (50 dwellings/hectare needed to support sufficient bus network)


lexus is250 awd

You can pick one up for around $36k before tax. I have a rack for it and it's great in snow and for taking the mountain bike out. It has the best interior of any car that costs anywhere close to it IMHO. Definitely recommend it if you want something nice and are into outdoor stuff too.


Save yourself $20k and get an IS300 (previous version) instead. It's a much better car.


I pondered the IS350 (but went for a G35 instead, see comment). I tend to agree: IS300 is a high-end sport compact sedan, IS350 is an entry-level luxury car.

(Out of those two I'd go for the IS 300, but in general I'd go for the G35 again ;-)).


better is a really subjective term here, they aren't really the same car. (e.g. the IS300 is ugly and fast, the IS250 AWD is luxury and more useful than the rear wheel drive IS300)


Subaru STi (Hatch) or Mitsubishi Evo X (Sedan).

I went with the hatch for the extra space. Cheap (30k), Fun, and Fast.


Most hackers tend to be male, but I am afraid you can't ask what razor to buy on this forum!


Because hackers have beards, or because it's off-topic?


King of Shaves Azor gets my vote :-)


The community can be very helpful. Just last week they helped me pick out an ass hair trimmer. Thanks Hacker News!


check http://searchautoreviews.com/ before you plunk down that 50k. And never buy the first generation of any model... at least wait for the 2nd one.


I like the Honda Fit. Lots of really nice touches on that one.


i got an 07 nissan altima, and i like it. its just an all-around solid vehicle, so far. good value for the money spent, on my part.


I hear that Lambourghini's are pretty good but I'm 35 years old and I've never had a drivers license so I might not be the best person to ask.


Lotus Elise or Mitsubishi Evo X?


The Elise is great but it has practically no storage - probably not viable as a day-to-day driver.


2003 acura 3.2tl type-s w/ nav


Hold out for the TOYOTA FTHS


e46 m3


I bought an 08 Nissan 350z Touring ed. and I LOVE IT! For winter and getting groceries I drive an old beater, 1994 Toyota Tercel. If I didn't have the Tercel, I'd probably rent a car or something if I needed to pick up friends, or buy furnature.

As for snow driving I find the 3 most important elements are as follows.

-Driving ability -Balance/Center of gravity of the vehicle -Tires

I had a Nissan NX2000 that did wonderful in the snow. Thats 200hp in the snow. I never got stuck or slid off the road. When I sold the NX, I took the wheels (and tires) off of it, and put them onto the Toyota Tercel and the thing does HORRIBLE in the snow. I believe this is because it is not as well balanced as a Nissan NX (sports car).


taxi.

Compare all costs, and you'll land there...




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