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You misunderstand how personality rights work.

Called it in the other thread and calling it in this one, there is no wrongdoing on OpenAI's side.

Looking/sounding like somebody else (even if its famous) is not prosecutable. Scarlet Johansson has nothing in this case, whether people like it or not. That's the reality.




> whether people like it or not. That's the reality.

That is exactly it - people do not like how OpenAI is acting. Whether or not there is legal action to be had is an interesting tangent, but not the actual point - OpenAI's actions are ticking people off. Just because something is legal does not mean it is the right thing to do.


Nobody said looking/sounding like someone else is "prosecutable", and this willfully obtuse reading is getting annoying.

Many people here, including you, seem to be under the impression that a person who sounds like a celebrity can, because they are not that celebrity, do whatever they want with their voice regardless of whether or not they seem to be passing off as or profiting from the persona of that celebrity. This is not the case.

When others point this out many people, again including you, then go "so you're saying the fact that someone sounds like a celebrity means they can't do anything with their voice - how absurd!", and that isn't the case either, and nobody is saying it.

This binary view is what I'm calling obtuse. The intent matters, and that is not clear-cut. There are some things here that seem to point to intent on OpenAI's part to replicate Her. There are other things that seem to point away from this. If this comes to a court case, a judge or jury will have to weigh these things up. It's not straightforward, and there are people far more knowledeable in these matters than me saying that she could have a strong case here.

People have now said this an absurd number of times and yet you seem to be insisting on this binary view that completely ignores intent. This is why I am calling it willfully obtuse.

If the above are misrepresentations of your argument then please clarify, but both seemed pretty clear from your posts. If instead you take the view that what matters here is whether there was intent to profit from Scarlett Johannson's public persona then we don't disagree. I have no opinions on whether they had intent or not, but I think it very much looks like they did, and whether they did would be a question for a court (alongside many others, such as whether it really does sound like her) if she were to sue, not that there is any indication she will.

Edit: And I should say IANAL of course, and these legal questions are complex and dependent on jurisdiction. California has both a statutory right and a common law one. Both, I think, require intent, but only the common law one would apply in this case as the statutory one explicity only applies to use of the person's actual voice. (That seems a bit outdated in today's deepfake ridden world, but given the common law right protected Midler from the use of an impersonator perhaps that is considered sufficient.)

https://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-right-publicity-...


> You misunderstand how personality rights work .. Called it in the other thread

One of the great things about HN is you get all kinds of experts from every field imaginable.

> is not prosecutable

Yikes.


Who said it was ‘prosecutable’?


Scarlet Johansson is threatening legal action against OpenAI for this.

Are you not aware of this?


> Scarlet Johansson is threatening legal action against OpenAI for this

Scarlet Johansson cannot prosecute anyone. She can sue them, in civil court, for civil damages. Prosecution is done in connection with crimes. Nobody is alleging any crimes here.


prosecute: to officially accuse someone of committing an illegal act, and to bring a case against that person in a court of law

Source: Cambridge's dictionary (but any other would work as well)


> From Cambridge's (or any other) dictionary

Where did you get this? I'm seeing "to officially accuse someone of committing a crime" [1]. Criminality is esssential to the term. (EDIT: Found it. Cambridge Academic Content dictionary. It seems to be a simplified text [2]. I'm surprised they summarised the legal definition that way versus going for the colloquial one.)

You have to go back to the 18th century to find the term used to refer to initiating any legal action [3][4].

[1] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/prosecut...

[2] https://www.cambridge.org/us/cambridgeenglish/catalog/dictio...

[3] https://verejnazaloba.cz/en/more-about-public-prosecution/hi...

[4] https://www.etymonline.com/word/prosecute


Scroll down on that site, literally. Words have more that one meaning.

Here's what I get from MacOS's dictionary: institute legal proceedings against (a person or organization).

I can also be pedantic and insist that, even under the strict interpretation you are vouching for ...

>Looking/sounding like somebody else (even if its famous) is not prosecutable.

... is a correct argument.


If this is really your hill to die on, go for it. Using “prosecute” to refer to civil litigation is not standard English in any dialect circa 1850.


Easy peasy, yes/no answer.

From your understanding, is looking/sounding like somebody else (even if its famous) prosecutable or not?


> is looking/sounding like somebody else (even if its famous) prosecutable or not?

No. And if a lawmaker claimed they would like it to be, and then claimed they meant civilly litigible, they’d be labelled dishonest. (Even if it was an honest mistake.)


>Looking/sounding like somebody else (even if its famous) is not prosecutable.

Great, then we agree. :^)


Yeah, I agree too. It's not prosecutable... But it is sue-able.

So, to return to your original point: Did you have one?


I think it’s still common informal usage to prosecute a (moral) case. Maybe more common in the UK where you can bring a literal private prosecution.

Although I think what lawyers say these days is that it’s not colorable.


> it’s still common informal usage to prosecute a (moral) case

Sure, those are other definitions [1], e.g. to prosecute an argument. Within a legal context, however, it is black and white.

> in the UK where you can bring a literal private prosecution

For crimes. One wouldn't say one is prosecuting a defendant for e.g. libel. (Some states have private prosecution [2].)

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prosecute

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution#United_Sta...


The third definition listed on your Merriam-Webster link seems to be what's applicable here, and very clearly describes the term as applicable to any legal action.

This is consistent with my understanding of the term as a native English speaker, having experienced the term "prosecute" being used in reference to both criminal and civil cases in all forms of discourse, verbal and written, formal and informal, for decades, and only first encountering the claim that it shouldn't be used for civil cases here in this thread, today.


> very clearly describes the term as applicable to any legal action…only first encountering the claim that it shouldn't be used for civil cases here in this thread, today

Partly why I used that citation. It’s one of the few (adult) dictionaries that acknowledges as much.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say the Webster 3b usage is incorrect—it’s in some dictionaries and was historically unambiguously correct. But it’s non-standard to a high degree, to the extent that Black’s Law Dictionary only contains the criminal variant. (I’ll leave it open whether publicly referring to someone who has only been sued as someone who has been prosecuted, when intended as an attack, qualifies as defamation.)

More to the point of clear communication, I’d put it in a similar category as claiming one’s usage of terrific or silly was intended in its historic sense [1]. (Though I’ll admit my use of “nice” falls in that category.)

All that said, I’m very willing to entertain there being a dialect, probably in America, where the historic use is still common.

[1] https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/84307/7-words-mean-oppos...


I'd regard what you're calling "historical" as being the actual standard usage in conventional speech -- again, I've never encountered the notion that "prosecute" doesn't apply to civil litigation until today, and I've been speaking English for decades, and have had many discussions involving legal cases, conversed with lawyers, signed contracts, etc. throughout my life.

The fact that you're referring to an intra-disciplinary dictionary to make the opposite argument implies that the narrower definition is jargon, and not an accurate representation of the common meaning of the term.


I didn’t know that about the states. Thanks.


Why would that make it more common in the UK? Being able to bring a private prosecution strengthens the distinction, a regular citizen can both sue someone for a civil offense and prosecute someone for a criminal offense. It makes it more clearly nonsense to refer to suing someone for slandering you as "prosecuting" them because you can bring prosecutions and that is not one!


Like I said, a moral case. There are also things like “trial of the facts”


Go away with the “well, actually”.

It’s a civil dispute.


The term "prosecution" applies to civil cases as well as criminal ones.


> Scarlet Johansson is threatening legal action against OpenAI for this.

Not true. SJ's statement seeks info and does not threaten legal action.


All we need is discovery. They’ll settle before that because we all know they are swimming in dirt.




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