Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
[flagged] Citizenship Privilege Harms Science (nature.com)
29 points by rntn on April 15, 2024 | hide | past | favorite | 76 comments



A decent article until it devolves into skin-colour based racism at the end (the UK is predominantly white, so of course professors are too - and skin colour has nothing do with the national discrimination anyway).

But really more of the world should follow the great example of Nayib Bukele in just offering full citizenship to productive scientists and engineers.

Also surprised it didn't mention when Chinese nationals were banned from the 2nd Kepler Science Conference.


It devolved the minute they used the term "Global South".

What do Singapore, Argentina, Dubai, China, and South Africa have in common? Literally nothing, except the racist implication that paints half of the planet with a single brush. As "third world country" isn't politically correct in 2024 we have to make up new vocabulary which is less descriptive and even more offensive.


Global south and third world are different concepts, and cover a different set of countries. Brazil and Chile, for instance, were first world countries that are members of the global south. Here's a summary of differences between the terms:

Third World countries were countries not aligned with the first world (NATO) or second world (Warsaw Pact). The idea that third world nations were developing nations is a sort of neologism. (There were plenty of first and second world developing nations as well.)

Global South was a term used in the Vietnam war era largely academically, then introduced by the UN in the 2010s to avoid judgement around "developing" nations. (What is a developing nation? We sort of understand the term, but it's not self describing. Developing what, exactly?)

The global south is definitely a phenomena that shows in data, in general, the global south is much less wealthy, less politically stable, and there is less individual freedom. That much is demonstrably true, but the reasons for this are a subject of much debate. You might also debate the merit of using the term.

But if the set of countries exists, what do you name that set? Developing nations? That's probably not quite right, as several members of the set are developed. Third world? Also definitely wrong. Historically confusing to boot. I don't know what else to name that set, and I've settled on global south for no other reason than that's what others seem to use. It's an imperfect name.


There's "developing" and "underdeveloped". Those quite good enough for the article.


Every country is America.


There's quite a bit of overrepresentation of engineers in terrorist groups. Simply being a scientist or engineer doesn't make you a good addition to a country, which are more than just profitable economic zones.


I'd argue the terrorist engineers enjoy their jobs more than the average FAANG SWE.

Upvoted.


What's funny to me is they could have just come out and said 'Hey, we need to reform our visa process for academics' and I would have nodded along and said 'yep, that sounds reasonable', but no they had to wrap it in identity politics which automatically makes the reader more skeptical of their point.

I'm just so used to the word 'privilege' being used in bad faith.


Maybe it’s my low expectations, but I don’t expect a US organization that primarily serves the US to start holding conferences outside the US.

The article mentions the availability of short-term postdoctoral fellowships from three European institutions to the “global south”. But they’re in Europe. Of course they’re biased toward Europe because that’s who they’re serving.

The actual issue seems that for whatever reason incumbent US and European institutions look down on peer institutions in other counties (the part about the gatekeepers). Everything else is a hack around that.


Is there a list or database of countries, ranked by how easy it is to get into from other countries? Something that can be used as a reference when organizing a global conference.

The opposite of the "Henley Passport index", if you will.


https://visalist.io/visa/ranking but you will need to exercise your own judgement, as it doesn't cover conference infrastructure or anything else that might be a challenge in getting to or operating inside a region!


I wonder if someone actually did a long-term study to generate evidence for a causal link that not being able to go to specific conference(s) actually "harmed" science?

On a side note, the same citizenship privilege would also "harm" any other industry market. E.g., there are tons of talented engineers and programmers in "global south" (or insert a more PC term for the under-developed countries) who face years of waiting time to get their work-visa. In extreme cases, there are some companies who do not have a proper visa-support team so they prefer not to hire people such countries.

It shouldn't surpise anyone that being born in the wrong part of the world plays a monumental role in terms of the oppprtunities to which one is exposed.


> I wonder if someone actually did a long-term study to generate evidence for a causal link that not being able to go to specific conference(s) actually "harmed" science?

Back up a step. Is there any evidence that specific conferences help science?


A -> B is same as ~B -> ~A


Sigh, academic politics. you first lay some unreasonable foundation. such as an extremely stressful environment where you don't know who pays you next paycheck and you have to move away from your friends and family o stay competitive.

then you work up. from that unreasonable environment and assign privilege to those who are able to even be a part of it.

the last thing you'd want for researcher is a calm environment to work...


I suggest Nature change its name into Nurture given the way they have been on a politicised bent for a long time now. Among the damage done by Critical Theory spin-offs like Identity Politics (which is the 'praxis' of Critical Identity Theories) and related attempts at ideological subterfuge the devaluation of the concept of 'science' and the devaluation of the scientific method is probably the most damaging to society. What Nature publishes here is agitprop, not scientific debate. This happens all too frequent and it devalues the publication as well as taints its contents.

Thank ${deity} for open-access network-based journals and other alternative publication venues.


People overusing the term “privilege” harm their cause celebre.


Privilege absolutely exists. And overuse of the term privilege absolutely dilutes the impact of the concept, imo.

But people are going to attach themselves to a term they like, that's just human nature, unfortunately. So I think it's best to just be like, "yeah, this term is going to get bandied about, let's make sure not to get too attached to every instance it is used."


Who comes up with this shit? “The global south?” The folks affected by this are mainly Chinese, which is at the same latitude as the US. All of India likewise is in the northern hemisphere. What’s the term “south” even meant to euphemistically reference? If you mean poor countries just say that.


Regarding the definition, they use the one Wikipedia mentions [1], namely, "the Global North consists of the world's developed countries, whereas the Global South consists of the world's developing countries and least developed countries". So the answer to "who comes up with this" would be "the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development". Both China and India are considered Global South.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_South


> the Global North consists of the world's developed countries, whereas the Global South consists of the world's developing countries and least developed countries"

So China is in the “south” while Taiwan and Singapore are in the “north?” And you’re saying it’s not stupid?


> The terms are not strictly geographical, and are not "an image of the world divided by the equator, separating richer countries from their poorer counterparts." Rather, geography should be more readily understood as economic and migratory, the world understood through the "wider context of globalization or global capitalism."

Sounds like a poorly considered label that is more divisive and confusing than helpful, which should be replaced with something better before it has a chance to do more damage.


Including China in the definition, given that by some measures they are the top economy in the world with very restrictive visas is… illuminating.


For one conference I attend regularly which is generally held in a different country each year, the year it was held in China was I think the only time where almost every attendee needed to get an actual visa and visit a consulate.


The alternative is the Global North (i.e., Western hegemony) admits that China is doing well or at least competitively.


I'm not sure there are any serious people who would contend that. They may be seen as a pariah of sorts due to many of their policies but no one doubts their economic and military prowess.


The terms Global South and North have been around since the 1960s, and they denote the country's socioeconomic position, not geographic location. It's jargon used by organizations working on developmental economics, and as with any jargon it is more precisely defined than "poor country".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_Sout...

While it's jargon, I'd have thought it was a fairly common and well understood jargon. Even if you haven't encountered these terms before, I'm not sure why you find them offensive. Are you opposed to fields of study adopting jargon to aid communication?


> The terms Global South and North have been around since the 1960s, and they denote the country's socioeconomic position, not geographic location. It's jargon used by organizations working on developmental economics, and as with any jargon it is more precisely defined than "poor country".

To me, the jargon term "Global South" seems inferior to in all respects to the much more common term "3rd World." Whatever minor confusion is caused by the latter term's origin in Cold War geopolitics [1], is far less than the obvious prejudice and nonsense baked into the former [2].

[1] 3rd world pretty much means poor now, and no one's going to be tripped up by its original meaning of "non-aligned."

[2] Australia and New Zealand are in the South, Kyrgyzstan and Mongolia are in the North. Is the former populated by poors and latter rich, wealthy and developed?


To you, sure, the term is not as useful. But to the people involved in academia and politics, the jargon is useful.

You can keep using words you prefer, language is adaptable like that. But the jargon used in those circles developed for a reason, which may not be obvious to those outside or who don't follow as closely.

And yes, Cold War geopolitics and confusion around non aligned were a factor in the evolution of the language here. First world implies something about the relationship with the U.S. even to this day. The Cold War wasn't that long ago, and the political alliances haven't drifted that much since then. An old first world country like Chile might also be developing.


> To you, sure, the term is not as useful. But to the people involved in academia and politics, the jargon is useful.

In what way exactly is "Global South" more useful than "3rd World" to "people involved in academia and politics"?

Sometimes jargon is necessary, but sometimes it's just fashion.

Also, in no way is jargon fixed. If I recall correctly, hundreds of bird species are slated to be officially renamed for political reasons. And just look at how many jargon terms there have been "in academia and politics" for Americans descended from Africans: negro, black, African-American, Black, etc. I see no good reason why a foolish term like "Global South" can't be abolished as well, for reasons of clarity.


I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it's not the same as "developing" or "third world". It's a set of countries with a unique set of characteristics that happen to mostly fall into the south. If you've got a better name, I'm sure folks would love to hear one.


My dad works in international development. Our thanksgivings were 95% USAID people and the like. I never ran across the term until recently. Your link confirms that it’s not technical jargon, but rather a political activist euphemism that’s crossed over only recently:

> Carl Oglesby used the term "global south" in 1969, writing in Catholic journal Commonweal in a special issue on the Vietnam War. Oglesby argued that centuries of northern "dominance over the global south […] [has] converged […] to produce an intolerable social order.” … It appeared in fewer than two dozen publications in 2004, but in hundreds of publications by 2013.

> Are you opposed to fields of study adopting jargon to aid communication?

“LDC” is jargon, established for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_developed_countries. It’s precise and connotes the thing it’s talking about: economic development. “Global south” is an activist trick to take a neutral economic label and inject the notion of political struggle between geographic areas.


Precisely this and China nor India are considered "poor".

The thing is, there are already pathways in place for "exceptional talent" visas that make entry simple of you are getting sponsored for a visa.

A lot of theese academics are coming from dubious institutions and most likely have dubious credentials. I don't have qualms having these hoops in place to qualify who is coming through the border.

But this whole system is a joke when it's easier to get a semi legal status by illegally crossing than by entering legally. That's a different discussion.

I'll take the downd00ts for an otherwise good discussion on this topic.


I for one happen to think that current immigration laws are fine and must necessarily be strict to account for fraud and scams. While it would be nice to have everyone attend any conference they want in person with zero oversight, it is not essential for scientific progress. This article is unnecessarily divisive and whiney, and infused with politics.


Cool, now do security clearances, i.e. the real citizenship now.


The unfortunate irony is that if you enter a country illegally you'll get easier access to some form of a legality status than if you enter a country legally which you then have to jump through hoops of bureaucracy to make happen.

I'll take the downd00ts for an otherwise good discussion on this topic.


Abolish the borders. Anyone who can pass a criminal background check gets in, no more questions asked. Immigration is our #1 competitive advantage in the US, as the entire rest of the industrialized world slips into a demographic abyss.


Immigration isn’t a competitive advantage; it’s a symptom not a cause. America was already the richest country in the world per capita in the early days of the republic. That wealth attracted immigration, not the other way around.

Immigrants bring their “deep culture” with them to their new countries: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-culture-transplant-review-i.... Even generations later, Americans originating from different parts of Europe depict the same differences in basic cultural attitudes like social trust as their counterparts in Europe. (E.g. German Americans are much more trusting than Italian Americans, as are Germans versus Italians in Europe.) Eliminating the border would be a great way to turn the US into Mexico.


[flagged]


>nothing in this country for the past two centuries was actually built by the white European protestants

A good example of the Motte and Bailey technique: the only way this statement is even approximately true is if "actually built" is interpreted narrowly to mean unskilled physical labor in the sun, but the writer hopes the reader will unconsciously become sympathetic to a broad interpretation of "actually built" to mean something like "wealth creation" even though most wealth creation over the last 200 years was the result of inventing things, explaining those inventions to others and organizing labor (through professional corporate managers, finance and government policy) which of course in the US was done mostly by white protestants.


> For all of their fussing, practically nothing in this country for the past two centuries was actually built by the white European protestants who claim "ownership" of America.

They built the legal, political, and cultural structure that enabled America to flourish.

Wonder why Africans didn’t build many Washingtons back in their home countries..

P.S: I’m African (Nigerian)


> For all of their fussing, practically nothing in this country for the past two centuries was actually built by the white European protestants who claim "ownership" of America.

FFS, that's asinine and obviously incorrect. The counter-examples are obvious: look at all the areas in America where (especially historically) the population is pretty much 100% "white European protestants." Would you expect to find everyone there living outside, exposed to the elements, with no cities or towns anywhere?

How did you come to believe what you wrote? You should check your learning pipeline for bugs.


practically nothing in this country for the past two centuries was actually built by the white European protestants

Gonna strongly disagree with you there. Look, many people don't like it, but the truth is that many of those myths you just proffered are only half true. Many Chinese participated in building railroads, but so did many, many white protestants. And guess who designed the rail roads and surveyed the routes. Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but the entire system was kicked off through the labor of blacks who built the rail system in the east long before many of either the Chinese or the poor white protestants even got here. And did most of the dirty work to extend it west so that the Chinese you're talking about could connect it.

Canals, again, were definitely designed and organized by white protestants. And, also again, blacks did the majority of the early work there too. Why? Because everyone else, from the native americans we tried, to the Irish, tended to die from malarial disease doing that work. Horrible as it sounds to say, it's more accurate to say that many Irish, um, "made sure blacks were working hard to build the canals". But to write white protestants out of that story? When they literally conceived and designed the whole thing? Nonsense.

And on and on. I mean really? Italians built New York? Where do you think the harbor came from that the Italian immigrants sailed into? The infrastructure fairy? Where do you think the engineers who conceived those bridges, harbors, ports, Ellis Island, etc etc came from? Out of the butt of a rainbow colored skittles pooping unicorn? It was white protestants. (I'll make you even madder, most of them were male.) Oh, by the way, guess who the protestants had doing the work in the caissons? It wasn't Italians. Slavery was horrible. Especially for blacks. But it got $#!t done.

You can believe your origin myths if you like, but please, don't try to make your space in America by attempting to write other people out of theirs.


“Slaves built the US” is a silly idea.

I hate how you get racial with your comment, but since you want to go there: literally 90% or more of America from the 1700s through the 1900s was physically built by on the backs of Protestant white labor.

Your view seems to be narrowed to a few isolated railroads or tunnels built by the Chinese or Irish near the coasts. You’re forgetting the development of the entire vast interior of the United States.

Hundreds of thousands of miles of roads carved and built from nothing. Fields cleared and plowed. Irrigation and drainage ditches. Towns and cities along with their infrastructure built up out of the dirt, essentially none of it done with slaves or indentured labor.


> You’re forgetting the development of the entire vast interior of the United States

The Midwest really gets screwed in this retconning of US history. They didn’t have slavery like the south; they didn’t have banks that profited from the slave capital like the northeast. Half of them came over as indentured servants themselves, and then tons of them died fighting in a war that didn’t have anything to do with them because they were morally outraged by slavery. Now they’re lumped in with all the other “white people.”


> that wealth (in the form of raw resources) was completely useless and dormant without the labor to exploit it

Arguably, the bulk of the "raw resources" which have accumulated to US business interests came from eg Latin America, from which Europe and later America pulled rubber, silver, beef, copper, chocolate and a thousand others. Neither have we stopped; where do you think Nestlé's palm kernel oil comes from? Not the raw resources within our borders.

I recommend everyone read "No Wall They Can Build" and "Open Veins of Latin America".


Would Turkey, Ukraine, Iran, Israel and China, be receptive to the proposal of abolishing borders? I’m a bit doubtful given the active hostilities going on on some regions…


A criminal background check is more investigation than is currently done. That’s usually only done for multi-year visas.


[flagged]


This attitude displays a fundamental lack of understanding of human society. People from different cultures are different. Not because of race, but because of cultural socialization, which persists for generations even in a new host country. In a democracy, those cultural differences will be reflected in the government and society of the new country. There are perfectly good reasons why the people in new country wouldn’t want to live with those changes.

For example, my parents come from Bangladesh, which was disarmed by the British. They cannot understand—for deeply cultural reasons—why anyone would need a gun. My wife’s parents, meanwhile, come from a frontier tradition, where you need guns to protect yourself from mountain lions or in places far from the reach of the law. Insofar as everyone votes their culture, why shouldn’t the people who are already here be able to say “we don’t have anything against your culture, but we prefer ours, and we don’t want you coming her and changing our society?”


> Not because of race, but because of cultural socialization, which persists for generations even in a new host country

Citation needed. Especially for the "generations". From your own example, you seem pretty well-integrated into mainstream American culture only one generation down.

My personal thesis is that some countries are really good at absorbing and integrating immigrants, and they see the benefits. America is exceptional at it, possibly the best in the world.


> Citation needed.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01651... ("Under this model, immigrants do not fully assimilate; rather, they transmit certain old-country values and behaviors to their descendants in the new country. Empirical support for culture transplant varies depending on the particular trait in question. Social trust, for example, shows strong evidence of transplant over different time periods and in many different countries.... the results suggest that a 'transplant' does occur in the U.S., as a strong relationship exists between individual savings and ancestral savings rates. The relationship is robust to a variety of specifications. In a midrange estimate, a 1 percentage-point increase in ancestral-country savings rates is associated with a 1 percent increase in retirement savings among second-generation immigrants.")

> From your own example, you seem pretty well-integrated into mainstream American culture only one generation down.

Only superficially, despite coming from a very westernized family in a former british colony. There's an enormous gap in "deep culture" between me and my wife's family and my wife and her family (who came here before the American revolution from Britain). You think you're well-assimilated until your kid wants to "express themselves" and you realize you abhor how Americans raise their kids, interact with their families, view the world, etc.


That study is solely about savings behaviors and only to the second generation. I don't have access to the paper so I couldn't see their methodology. I also have so many questions (not expecting you to answer, just stuff that popped up in my mind). Is there a proposed mechanism of action? Has the effect gotten stronger over time as communications have improved and immigrants can better keep in touch with their homeland? Or is it coincidental, and more a function of changing economic conditions? Did 4th or 5th generation Americans also start saving more in the same period? What about immigrants from countries where the savings rate reduced?

You were generalizing about a range of cultural behaviors, and for several generations.

> You think you're well-assimilated until your kid wants to "express themselves" and you realize you abhor how Americans raise their kids

There is no single "American method" for raising kids, even among populations that have lived here for many generations. Compare rural Utah to the Bay Area or to suburban Dallas and you'll likely find stark differences.


> That study is solely about savings behaviors and only to the second generation

The article discusses other traits that are passed on, such as social trust (which is specifically discussed in what I quoted). Here’s a book on it: https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=35594


The study you linked references other studies that suggest social trust was passed on in other countries. The study itself only focuses on savings in the US.


> America is exceptional at it, possibly the best in the world.

Is the US actually better at absorbing immigrants than Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand? I’m unconvinced.


For citation, I recommend a book by Garret Jones, “The Culture Transplant: How Migrants Make the Economies They Move To a Lot Like the Ones They Left”

https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Transplant-Migrants-Make-Econ...


Hilarious that the person you're replying to had their smug reddit "CITATION NEEDED" gotcha-attempt, and when you and rayiner provided some, I see nothing but downvotes. I can hear the reeee'ing from here.


You should watch Gangs of New York. It highlights how the original white anglo saxon Protestant population of americans had the same fears as you mentioned with catholic italian and irishmen coming in and changing the culture of the country.

It turns out, everyones kids assimilate into american culture just fine. Today you can’t tell whether a kid came from an anglo or irish or italian background. In some parts of the US that is already true for latinos, who are now the dominant population in many american cities, and whose youth population engaged with the same things as any other american youth population today.


> It highlights how the original white anglo saxon Protestant population of americans had the same fears as you mentioned with catholic italian and irishmen coming in and changing the culture of the country.

But they did change it, into something completely different. America was supposed to be like what you might still see in some small New England towns, with decentralized power and an actively engaged, self-governing citizenry. If you were someone in 1920 who thought WASP culture was a good thing, your fears were completely validated. That country doesn't exist anymore.


I live in one of those New England towns where everyone piles into the gym at the high school to argue about whether we really need a new fire engine. It’s not clear to me who you think lives here, but from what I can see it’s mostly Irish, Italian, Polish, and Indian. To meet someone whose four grandparents were born here is rare. Something like 30% of the population of Massachusetts was born in another country. Whatever else happened in history to make it this way, it sure wasn’t keeping out immigrants.


If you sort the states by percentage of British ancestry, it’s pretty much a list of places that are “the way the American republic was designed to be”: Utah, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Oregon.


I suppose it's a matter of opinion. I would not have guessed that your list of US states governed “to spec” would include Idaho and Montana (weaker municipalities? Not sure), but not Massachusetts or Rhode Island (New England towns).

I'd only reiterate that if the question is whether there can be high-trust societies with a lot of local self-governance, that also have a lot of immigration, then Massachusetts proves that the answer is yes.


Rhode Island is just a couple of spots below Montana on the list of places with the highest British ancestry. Massachusetts is a good example of how mass immigration can make a place very different: https://www.grunge.com/1199030/chilling-details-about-the-bo...


> People from different cultures are different. Not because of race, but because of cultural socialization, which persists for generations even in a new host country. In a democracy, those cultural differences will be reflected in the government and society of the new country.

Yes, this is indeed the precise excuse given for every single wave of immigration in US history for hundreds of years. Yet somehow we're still here, leading the world economically, politically, and culturally, watching as the frightened closed societies of Europe and Asia circle their wagons and fade into oblivion.


> People from different cultures are different. Not because of race, but because of cultural socialization, which persists for generations even in a new host country.

You've said that your wife's family has been in this country since before the American Revolution. So your kids aren't exclusively products of your (recent-immigrant) family's culture.

> In a democracy, those cultural differences will be reflected in the government and society of the new country.

That's how evolution works: Through the combined effects of variation — especially through mixing of genetic- and cultural traits via sexual reproduction — plus selection for that which provides an advantage in the relevant environment. (It's part of the Great Project of building a universe.)

> There are perfectly good reasons why the people in new country wouldn’t want to live with those changes.

Different people dislike a wide variety of changes. (We love novelty, we hate change.) Robert A. Heinlein said, "Never argue with the weather"; in the modern world, population migration falls into that category.

Footnote: I'm re-reading David Halberstam's book The Best and the Brightest, about the origins of American involvement in the Vietnam War — which was a subject of not a little personal interest to me and my generation back then. It's saddening to read again how U.S. policymakers' insistence on unrealistic premises — rejecting knowledgeable advice from experienced Asia hands — led to delusions that we could interfere in a colonial war on the cheap. Modern global migration presents similar opportunities for policy f*k-ups.


> If you imagine that y'all's kids are exclusively products of your immigrant family's "deep culture," then your wife and her family would doubtless like a word.

The super-majority of every group still marries within their group, so our case is unusual. (My wife still has 7/8 British ancestry.) Our kids are a negotiated mix: Bangladeshi dad morality and career expectations, Oregonian mom austerity and disciplinary techniques. Regardless, my point is that they’re far from Oregonian. Folks in Eugene, OR probably wouldn’t want my daughter running the town.

> In a democracy, those cultural differences will be reflected in the government and society of the new country. That's how evolution works — variation, plus selection for that which works, especially through mixing of genetic- and cultural traits via sexual reproduction. (It's part of the Great Project of building a universe.)

I would characterize what’s happening to America as more like entropy. Or maybe “worse is better.” Regardless, I view society as democratic project, not a free market or evolutionary one. People get to design the kind of society they want to live in. And they should realize that who they invite to join that society has a big effect on that.


> The super-majority of every group still marries within their group ....

That certainly might be the case for the first couple of generations. But it's a movie, not a snapshot. My own kids have ancestry from six different countries (that we know of), including emigration from two countries within just the last 100 years or so and from two other countries in the 50 years before that. The neighbor kid (who's now verging on middle age) is ethnically the product of a very-mixed marriage, and he himself married a girl from yet another immigrant group — they just had a baby whose ancestry is, I think, from six different countries as well.

> I would characterize what’s happening to America as more like entropy.

Entropy presupposes no external input of energy or information, doesn't it? Immigration can provide both.

> Regardless, I view society as democratic project, not a free market or evolutionary one. People get to design the kind of society they want to live in.

To a very-limited extent that's true. But quaere whether an even better metaphor would be a rugby scrum: Even within a hypothetical ethnic monoculture, "people" aren't a monolith (as in the famous Apple "1984" commercial); they don't have the same tastes, drives, or capabilities, and they do tend to push to get what they want, both alone and with others who are of like mind — or who are coerced to help, or at least to acquiesce.


> That certainly might be the case for the first couple of generations.

But in that couple of generations, they’ve already massively changed the country, e.g., with Italian immigration to the US in the 20th century. Mass immigration completely changed northern Virginia where I grew up. Maybe 100 years from now those people will mix and form a new amalgam. But the place I liked doesn’t exist anymore, and the place it is now I don’t like so much—just as a matter of cultural preference. Why isn’t that a perfectly reasonable basis for opposing immigration?

> Entropy presupposes no external input of energy or information, doesn't it? Immigration can provide both.

If the energy input is used to organize rather than disorganize, sure. But immigration is like applying heat to an ice sculpture. Taking something organized and subjecting it to random forces.


> But the place I liked doesn’t exist anymore, and the place it is now I don’t like so much—just as a matter of cultural preference. Why isn’t that a perfectly reasonable basis for opposing immigration?

Each of us certainly has our cultural preferences. Your own preference — in essence, your value-weighting of the various factors in play – is by no means irrational. But we can question whether you've realistically assessed the likely cost and effort required to restrict global migration in today's world. (That's why in a previous comment I cited Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest about the well-intentioned but, ultimately, catastrophically-naïve policy decisions that got the U.S. into Vietnam in the 1960s.)

If King Canute were alive today, he'd likely smile knowingly at our conundrum; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Canute_and_the_tide. "The episode is frequently alluded to in contexts where the futility of 'trying to stop the tide' of an inexorable event is pointed out, but usually misrepresenting Canute as believing he had supernatural powers, when Huntingdon's story in fact relates the opposite."


Post WWII, imo, there is a view by the "public service" class that being anti-immigration, in the West only, is morally akin to Nazism. I don't feel like the US's immigration policy, official and unofficial, is really democratic. Especially over the last few years. It feels like it was crafted by judges, lawyers, and people with a vested interest in more immigration to achieve a certain outcome and that plan has worked tremendously well for them. I am not sure what the future will bring from this. It's probably unprecedented in history.


> Abolish the borders.

> Anyone who can pass a criminal background check gets in

"In" to what? You have to have borders for there to be anything to get in to.


It is pretty ironic that americans can grow up broke in west virginia and freely chase economic prospects around the continental US with little trouble. But be born in mexico and now you have this entire byzantine process to do the same thing just because of where the hospital was located in. It is pretty stupid. People are fungible. Arguments for borders are arguments for irrational xenophobia when you distill them, since they never seem to use these same arguments to contain poor americans in poor states.


> People are fungible.

People are anything but.


People are brainpower and labor. They are fungible. Its politics and religion that tries to make you think this person with a brain and two hands is fundamentally different than this other person with a brain and two hands.


That's the Kang and Kodos Theory of Humans.

Actual humans have ideas, values, beliefs, religions, obligations, loyalties, desires, etc...

And they also differ a lot in brainpower and ability (and desire) to work!


Sure, theres a distribution for everytbing. But on the whole I dont believe these distributions are much different. If anything its the born american in the coddled middle class suburban upbringing thats likely to slack off and not ever have learned what hard work actually means. They are playing roblox and pushing the average age to start driving back by the year, while a kid their age half the world away might be laying brick 12 hours a day knowing if they don’t they don’t eat that night.


Ah, education, scarcity of resources, and common culture (at least respect for democracy and our history) mean nothing.




Join us for AI Startup School this June 16-17 in San Francisco!

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: