The first wave of BYD cars in Europe are not competitive yet. The price difference is small, they are less efficient and they have other issues (space optimization, driving comfort, etc)
But in only one year they already started to fix all this. They are getting cheaper, correcting mistakes and opening factories in the EU.
Old makers announce a car and need 2-3 years or more to have it in the market. The Chinese brands seem to need less than a year. There will be blood.
IDK in the rest of Europe, but in Spain there's a growing resentment against euro auto makers as there's a perceived unfair price increase with lots of quality issues and bad customer-facing practices.
Also, everyone is aware they are lobbying the EU for keeping competitors out.
IMO they are building reputational damage and it will last. People is going through hardship and what they see is companies trying to squeeze them and taking advantage.
Every new YT reviewing a car has at least ~5 most upvoted comments complaining about this issues, over and over again, and this has been going for a while.
As I commented somewhere else, Chinese EV makers are state enterprises that dump their production at a loss on the European market.
Cars have become expensive, but their baseline in safety requirements (and luxury) has increased a lot too. This is true for all cars, European or not. Cheap Asian brands have also become more expensive or went away as they cannot meet safety regulations.
We dump a lot of subsidies on our factories too. But in the end it doesn't matter, because most people remember that a few years ago you were able to buy chap cars <10k. That mean that modal incomes could afford to have a car.
Now 10k is the price of a second-hand car with lots of potential issues. It got to a point that there are companies that offer pericial services with a guy who goes to review the car with an ODB reader and everything. That wasn't happening here.
But it isn't only the cheap market. Premium brands are pushing a lot of BS and people is taking notice.
You can't squeeze people indefinitely without no repercussion. It's just impossible.
The last car I bought for 10k€ (not less than, in fact it was probably closer to 11) was a Chevrolet Spark in 2011. I remember that for 9k€ you could buy a Hyundai that didn't even have electric windows, but everything else was above 10k€.
Last year, with subsidies I replaced it with an electric Dacia Spring for 16k€. It is much better than the old one (slightly larger, obviously more silent, less TCO since I charge it at home) and yes, it was subsidized by the state, but a similar ICE car could be bought new for the same price and it would also be better than the 2011 car. It sums up to +25% in 12 years for a better product, which is not a lot.
> dump their production at a loss on the European market.
How much money are they losing? How can they afford to do that? How long can they keep that up?
China’s overall BEV exports rose 70 percent in 2023, reaching $34.1 billion.
The European Union (EU) is the largest recipient of Chinese BEV exports, accounting for nearly 40 percent of them. Other European countries (Albania, European Free Trade Association members, North Macedonia, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom) held a 15 percent share of Chinese shipments in the same year.
How much depends on bookkeeping, but for the NIO it was $35000 __per car__ last year. So that gives you an idea of the investment involved.
How long can they afford that: China has a big trade surplus, high youth unemployment, low domestic demand and no accountable leadership. So: very long.
This is a bit of a non sequitur, but ok, VW in China is built by the Chinese SAIC. The 16K price was a temporary sale price.
In Europe this model of VW is imho over priced indeed, and price sensitive people should buy Korean/Japanese cars anyways.
Aside, what most people seem to miss is that the model mentioned in the article is not for sale in Europe and likely will not be (rumours because it does not meet safety criteria). Its bigger brother is, but that one is also a lot more expensive.
The Chinese model cannot be sold in the EU because VW blocked parallel import.
It very much meets safety criteria it indeed does not have the middle airbag but it’s not a requirement for the EU or the US.
The normal pricing is still less than half of the EU price and it’s not that VW just gave it to SIAC and called it a day.
It’s a JV which VW has a 50% share in so again are they loosing $35K per car or not?
SIAC is a massive automaker so they are a far better example of what kind of profit margins you can expect.
The same goes for Volvo which produces the EX30 in China and the current EX30’s available to buy in the EU and the rest of the world are made in China since Volvo won’t start production in Europe until late 2025.
The reality is that there aren’t many EVs currently in Europe that are both functional and affordable in fact there are non.
The ID.3 is probably the minimal family car you can have and I would argue that if you have kids the ID.4 or 5 are probably the minimum you would comfortably get by with.
Korean and Japanese EVs aren’t much better either as the Kia EV6 or the Hyundai Ioniq 5/6 are quite expensive as well.
> The reality is that there aren’t many EVs currently in Europe that are both functional and affordable in fact there are non.
True. I don't understand what we argue about.
- Cars in Europe have become more expensive, regardless if it is a Kia or a VW.
- The Chinese state distort the markets.
I guess we both love cheap transportation. The fact that in this competitive market all brands got more expensive tempers the suspicion that there are wild margins. But I also suspect that we do pay those higher prices regardless because we can.
In China there is a price war, precisely because the state funds a massive scale of EV production. Some Chinese EV manufacturers went bankrupt, but the state brought them back to live. Also, the Joint Venture of VW-Siac receives those subsidies, which helps VW to keep prices low in China. The example you gave was a temporary sale, initially scoped to just 7000 cars, but later increased to 17000. But yes, price difference between EU-China is still big nonetheless for this model.
China is a big market, and all players are working hard to get a foot in the door to establish their brand.
I fear that once a brand is established prices will rise. If you look at the phone market, the OnePlus was once a cheap flag ship killer. Now it is just as expensive.
"at a loss" can be very different depending on :
- is it pure marginal cost ?
- do you include a part of R&D cost ?
- do you factor large capex (factory, stamping press, and silicon fab in related industries )
- how do you compute depreciation ?
When you see the gap between accounting in the West and "accounting" in China, "at a loss" has no meaning at all.
Given that the China is an adversary, accepting their car in the market en masse doesn't sound good from the EU security perspective. If the cars have remote kills switch or something similar, in the event of Chinese-Russian invasion, they could easily disable all transport and prevent people from leaving to safety or cause other troubles.
I view Chinese expansion in that sector as a Trojan horse.
Mind you that maybe the "company" (Chinese "companies" are not the same thing as we know in the West - these are more like government departments) has good intentions, but when the time comes, the party can order them to do whatever they need to be done.
The concern is a bit silly. You realize that while most of us are dying from starvation and radiation piosoning, the car working or not is like not even a concern.
Meanwhile, I rather drive whatever car I like, including Chinese ones. Especially cars witch the government think should not spy on me since they don't feel they control it.
I remember people saying that the concept of full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine was silly.
I think you are underestimating dictators in their 70s with nothing to lose, power of propaganda and the fact that when there is war, there is opportunity to make fortunes.
I'm looking to get a car these days in EU. The government gives out subsidy for electric cars and even without it, there is simply nothing almost as good in Teslas range. EU makers are either too expensive or try to sell you shit for gold
Good. I haven’t owned a car in more than 10 years but I’m in the market for one, and European / US electric vehicles seem like scams to me. Very poor range and luxury pricing for middle class cars. VW Buzz is a good example, almost 60T€ base price, 400 km range (much less on the highway) and things that should be standard in 2024 need to be purchased as expensive extras for several thousands of euros.
Even most new gasoline cars seem to be rip offs, the new Skoda Superb is almost 6T € more expensive than the previous model in the base configuration. It’s just rent seeking at this point, and these companies already bring the lobbyists into position to delay the transition to electric vehicles and keep foreign competitors out of the market.
Same here, I'm doing everything by bike since I was a kid, I'll move to a more rural area soon and it'll either be a 5k euros diesel shitbox or a <15k new ev. My house will be fully build for less than what mid tier tesla costs so there is absolutely no way I would spend that much for a cage on wheels
Perhaps cars actually cost closer to what American and European manufacturers sell them for, and the communist state-backed BYD is the rent-seeking scam that’s dumping vehicles below cost in order to achieve not-quite-commercial objectives.
It’s a bit funny though that after the subsidies were reduced all car manufacturers reduced prices of electric vehicles accordingly, hints at the fact that they’re still turning a nice profit with them. Volkswagen quadrupled their earnings in one year, many other car brands had similar increases. It’s not a cost issue.
I don't think so. Most government purchase subsidies are or were phased out in China in 2022.
BYD received massive grants during it's scale-up period, mostly in the form of capital expenditures being fully subsidized or land grants. Very rarely were subsidies/grants awarded for operational expenses though it did happen.
Given the fiscal situation in China it's unlikely BYD will receive as much support in the future but you never know. Green transition is still a massively important political goal in China.
Worth mentioning the scale of support it received is not dissimilar to Tesla which also benefited from very healthy subsidies and tax arrangements with the US jurisdictions it setup in. In fact if you include their $1.3B deal with Nevada (over 20 years though) I think you will find Tesla is in the lead in government money.
BYD is for sure a legitimately remarkable company and to some degree I’m thankful for the competition. But I am highly, highly skeptical (and you should be too) of pretty much any number coming out of China. You should be especially skeptical of a company that can make such valuable contributions to the CCP’s hybrid warfare doctrine.
BYD can degrade the US manufacturing base; degrade consumer sentiment (as seen above); put millions of mobile sensors on US/EU roads; etc. It is absolute naivety to think that’s a company that will ever need to truly stand on its own two feet.
Or perhaps it's less expensive to make cars in China than in America, just like it's less expensive to make T-shirts and microwave ovens there. As Chinese manufacturing has moved up the value chain I've been hearing for 20 years that "Chinese $PRODUCT is just cheaper because of subsidies/dumping, and they'll hike prices once they dominate the market." But I've never seen the Chinese manufacturers actually raise prices above the old European/American prices even after they come to dominate different market segments. They can make a sustained profit even at low prices.
Chinese cars are already on European (Portugal) streets. The automaker war is lost imo. Once they are in the south of the EU (low purchasing power market) it will just spread from there.
I got rides in a couple of makers in a taxi. To be honest as a passenger the experience was good. Better than some French brands.
Buyers need to factor in the chance that their car becomes worthless when China starts a war to conquest Taiwan, as that might prompt for accelerated decoupling and sanctions, leaving owners of Chinese cars on a dead end.
Reminder that Chinese EV Manufacturers are in the end state enterprises operating at a loss, so this is not sustainable long term. As internal consumption is very weak in China, all that production needs to be exported or you are looking at the notorious EV graveyards.
This practice is a sure way to suffocate European car makers, so you can totally expect tariffs somewhere in the future.
China won’t start a war in Taiwan. Look what they are doing in Hong Kong. China is patient. They will slowly bring Taiwan back into the fold without killing the golden goose.
I would think the ppl in the region are not stupid enough to make their homeland a weapon testing ground like many other places … we all know the ongoing Ukraine situation…
China is ruled by an autocrat who only listens to his yes men.
This is a very suboptimal solution, to say the least. Every year this will become worse and worse as the autocrat gets more and more addicted to his own copium.
This is how it always happened in the past everywhere in the world, this is what is already happening there.
> Buyers need to factor in the chance that their car becomes worthless when China starts a war to conquest Taiwan, as that might prompt for accelerated decoupling and sanctions, leaving owners of Chinese cars on a dead end.
Worthless how? Cars aren't phones yet. You still own them even if you can't contact the manufacturer any more.
As of a few days ago, i read some chinese car company was looking into producing their cars in one of the Stellantis plants in northern italy. It is quite ironic that european automakers first moved production in 3rd world countries to minimize the cost of production, and now some of the new automakers in similar countries come here to look for plants where to assembly their cars
I'd love to see them pull this off in the USA. The cheapest new EV is what, still the Bolt EV at ~$30K? Ridiculous. We need something to provide downward pressure on prices. If they could actually sell it for $10K in the USA, it would be cheaper than even the cheapest gas cars. DO IT!
What I would love to buy is something between a street legal golf cart and a Nissan Leaf. I only need about 50 miles range and to protect me from the elements. I have a bicycle for some tasks, an ICE vehicle for longer hauls, but would love something to fill in the need for in town errands.
The Aptera looks interesting for that sort of space. You might be able to option it with the lowest battery if you don't care about range and with the largest solar panel option and perhaps never/rarely even need to plug it in. Of course, they have to actually make it to serial production first, but it's a really neat concept if you value efficiency in your transportation.
So... a 12 year old Leaf? The old ones suffered severe range degradation and tend to be cheap second hand as a result, but should probably still do 50 miles.
Poltics won't allow it unfortunately. If BYD was to sell vehicles in the US the backlash from established auto companies and the China hawks would drown out any reasonable conversation.
Already happened. BYD floated the idea of building cars in Mexico for import into the US, which would be duty free under USMCA. Trump said he'd slap a 100% tariff on Chinese built in Mexico cars if he's elected.
Most automakers seem to want to be banks renting out way too expensive cars for the customers budget. That segmemt is way too crowded with higher rates.
BYD seems very interesting. I would need a small commute EV. Have anyome tried this model?
An ultimate economy box like this is great. But I would like to take it one step further and have them parked here and there for use with an app or something.
I tried using it in Stockholm, but it wouldn't let me because I am no longer a resident there. Still, the idea is great I think especially with cheap boxes like this.
No-one's suggesting buying cars should be _banned_. But, clearly, many people don't need or want (or in many cases have room for) a full-time car; these sort of services are useful for that case.
But in only one year they already started to fix all this. They are getting cheaper, correcting mistakes and opening factories in the EU.
Old makers announce a car and need 2-3 years or more to have it in the market. The Chinese brands seem to need less than a year. There will be blood.