So two vandals in their 30s were arrested and remain on bail. In the UK, will we ever hear anything more about them? Do they remain anonymous even after they've been charged?
It's surprising to me this is being treated so lightly. A couple weeks ago when a Florida teenager was charged with a felony after doing burnouts on a crosswalk, UK papers seemed pretty happy to publish his face and name the very next morning [1]. I guess different rules when the crime occurs in a different country? Seems funny to me.
The Miami New Times claimed that freedom of information laws in Florida make it easier for journalists to acquire information about arrests from the police than in other states and that this is responsible for a large number of news articles
Names are normally released when someone is prosecuted, unless they are a minor. It doesn't always seem to happen at the charging stage, which is purely a police decision, but once it reaches a court, it is public.
'The judge said in his ruling that he had examined “raw underlying intelligence material” before deciding there was not a “real and immediate risk” to NX121 or his family if his identity was made public.
Lucraft said the three-month delay in naming the officer would allow for “the imposition of any additional mitigating measures to be put in place.”'
> I guess different rules when the crime occurs in a different country?
Yes, that's how laws work?
If the police in Florida release the names of people mere charged with a crime, but the police in the UK don't - in case, you know, they have the wrong person - then the reporting will be different?
Yes, that's certainly how laws work - what a very astute answer, Karellan.
What I'm observing is that the spirit of the law, as it's being enforced here, is what's amusing. Is a suspect's identity deserving of state mandated protection? Only if they're British, I guess.
It seams you are assuming that the law in UK forbids publishing a suspects identity.
But maybe the law is written in a way that publishing someone’s identity is fine if it’s been made available by Police (in whatever country), in that case there are no double standards at play, just different situations.
Mind you, I have zero knowledge of the actual laws at play here.
I’m sure there’s a good reason, but couldn’t they root directly from the scion? Or is there something particular about the sycamore that resists that type of propagation?
My experience with sycamores on the mid atlantic US they are really tough trees. They sprout in a crushed stone parking area near my house, i can dig them up and replant them with high success rate.
There are many hypothetical crimes that don’t happen because there’s some base level of societal trust. Think of the archetypal rural community where no one locks their doors at night. The UK, like many countries, is backsliding into a low trust society where previously unthinkable criminal acts are happening, requiring a re-thinking of its guarantees of security.
It was a nice tree, but preserving genetic material from famous trees is just silly. I don't think anybody would be able to pick out a clone of the Sycamore Gap tree out from an identity parade of other sycamore saplings, because it's just a sycamore, and likewise Isaac Newton's apple tree is just an apple tree, of the Flower of Kent variety - preserving this one makes more sense, because it's not a popular variety, being "mealy, and sub-acid, and of generally poor quality by today's standards". But the 2,500 year old yew is just a yew, and is very far from being the oldest in the country, and its descendants and clones, of course, aren't old at all, so they kind of lack the whole point of the original tree.
There's a sort of superstition like sympathetic magic going on here, where the powers of objects literally rub off on things they come into contact with. It's culturally very weird, but so is the idea of "a famous tree" in the first place. Maybe turning its DNA into a celebrity as well makes a sort of crazy sense.
I agree objectively there is nothing special about the tree or its clones/seedlings, or the other trees mentioned. However, I disagree it’s a silly sympathetic magic. It’s symbolism to help people deal with negative events and maintain a symbolic link. Realistically huge amounts of humanity are only symbolic links. Objectively who cares if someone is buried here, or this bit of metal is the crown of the royal family? But from a symbolic point of view they are important.
If grafting/seedings weren’t available, they would have just planted another tree, but using the same DNA or the offspring has greater meaning and helps reinforce the narrative.
Yeah, although this stuff varies from culture to culture. Here's Douglas Adams visiting a 14th century temple in Kyoto:
>I was told it hadn’t weathered well at all, and had in fact been burned to the ground twice in this century.
>“So it isn’t the original building?” I had asked my Japanese guide. “But yes, of course it is,” he insisted, rather surprised at my question.
>“But it’s been burned down?”
>“Yes.”
>“Twice.”
>“Many times.”
>“And rebuilt.”
>“Of course. It is an important and historic building.”
>“With completely new materials.”
>“But of course. It was burned down.”
>“So how can it be the same building?”
>“It is always the same building.”
>I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself.
>I couldn’t feel entirely comfortable with this view, because it fought against my basic Western assumptions, but I did see the point.
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The Ise Jingu grand shrine in Mie Prefecture, Japan, is rebuilt every 20 years as part of a tradition that has been practiced for around 1,300 years, with some records indicating it could be up to 2,000 years old. This practice is known as Shikinen Sengū, which involves the complete dismantling and reconstruction of the shrine's wooden structures.
The purpose of this tradition is not only to preserve the original architect's design against the eroding effects of time but also to maintain a strong sense of divine prestige and to pass building techniques from one generation to the next. The rebuilding process is a significant national event, symbolizing the eternal nature of sanctuaries and the importance of cultural continuity. It is a testament to the enduring value of traditional Japanese artisan skills and the cyclical renewal of sacred spaces. The entire reconstruction process takes approximately 17 years.
The wood from the dismantled shrine buildings is recycled and used to construct new Torii gates at the shrine's entrance. Additionally, this wood is distributed for use in other shrines across Japan.
```
> The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building.
For that same reason, I'd prefer it if efforts could be made to fully restore Western ruins, such as the Parthenon, Constantine's Basilica or the Fourm of Trajan. Provided we have an accurate understanding of how the original appeared, and restoring it won't damage the other parts of the ruin or its surroundings. Surely it will do more for long term preservation.
Our own ancients had the same idea - if the civilisation was flourishing, they'd rebuild ruins after earthquakes or war.
(Also this is analogous to OOP - classes are like ideas, instances are their realisation)
Large parts of the walls of Babylon were reconstructed by Saddam Hussein's Ba'athist government. I can never decide what I think about this. I think they also did a ziggurat and reconstructed it wrong, which is annoying. OTOH it's all nice to look at. It's also kind of misleading though because people don't realise it's reconstructions and possibly inaccurate. (And there are bricks here and there with messages on about how Saddam is the second coming of Nebuchadnezzar, but that's a detail.)
Thank you for sharing that was interesting. I’m surprised he says it is against western assumptions, but perhaps western assumptions has changed over time and adopted these views more.
Every "Granny Smith" you've ever eaten is fruit from a cloned tree, cloned from the original Granny Smith tree which grew in the 19th century in New South Wales in Australia. This is because the fruit produced by apple trees change with each generation. If you want _that_ apple fruit, you need to clone it (via grafting).
I can therefore see why - if you believe that Newton was inspired by a falling apple - why you'd want that specific fruit to be available and therefore you'd graft a cutting and clone. If you didn't, that apple's taste, look and texture would be lost forever.
Yeah, I thought there was something special about apple trees, but I couldn't remember what. Apparently they're "extreme heterozygotes", which means their evolved tactic is to really roll the dice hard with each generation, and so they don't "breed true".
AFAIK all fruit trees and shrubs that are grown for economic reasons (cultivars) are going to be clones grafted onto some related but beneficial (disease resistance, vigor, etc.) rootstock.
The cloning and grafting is purely for consistency of the fruit!
> preserving genetic material from famous trees is just silly
Giving the correct message sometimes is important
The species has at least two cultivars cloned by its own merits. Acer pseudoplatanus brillantissimum would be a wonderful replacement, but propagating exactly the same individual is a very satisfying rebellious act against the morons.
By this logic, most things we do because of sentimentality and feeling, which many consider to be exactly those things that make us human, are “just silly”.
Every culture has its rituals, traditions, and indeed quirks. The preservation of history in each culture seems to be universally consistent.
What I find interesting is that often this is respected when observing other cultures from the outside, but when it comes to our own culture, or a very familiar one, it can often be dismissed or taken for granted.
I suppose some might find it silly, but when it comes to culture and identity I think this stuff is quite symbolic of what is considered important and much more positive and thoughtful than what you might assume from current affairs and politics. A few hundred years later and this will simply be part of the fabric of the long history of the island.
No one is stopping you from discarding all those sentimental things in your own life.
A bit presumptuous to lecture others on it.
Maybe cloning the exact tree is silly, but replacing it is absolutely not. This was a valuable tourist site, and just like anything of value, you replace it when lost.
You would replace your shoes or car keys if you lost them, right?
I'm not sure. Speaking as an extremely silly person, I'm liable to go barefoot, or do anything. But I think we should all be self-aware about these matters if possible. Like I said at the start, it was a nice tree, I like trees.
I think it was mainly a nice tree because it was nicely framed, though, and in a movie with Kevin Costner and that awful Bryan Adams song in it. The subsequent snowballing of sentimentality around the significance of the material traces of the memory of the tree in the significant movie is ... it all has a wild memetic life of its own. I don't suppose it's harmful, but it's a strange outgrowth. The main point I'm making here is not so much "stop being silly" as "oh, look at that".
It's surprising to me this is being treated so lightly. A couple weeks ago when a Florida teenager was charged with a felony after doing burnouts on a crosswalk, UK papers seemed pretty happy to publish his face and name the very next morning [1]. I guess different rules when the crime occurs in a different country? Seems funny to me.
[1]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13080377/Florida-te...