> I've asked out wait staff at restaurants, bar tenders, even co-workers with some success based on little more than them being nice or attractive
These people generally aren’t being nice to you because they reciprocate, they’re being nice because it’s their job. Asking them out while they’re working is awkward for everyone involved. Worse, it can make them feel pressured to let you down gently or give you the false impression that they’re interested if only they weren’t currently in a relationship.
> all women have to do is ignore or deny the advance, how is that "dealing with bullshit"?
Most men are decent, but plenty of men are aggressive, scary, or make women very uncomfortable.
If you ask someone out respectfully, of course that's fine. If you're not taking no for an answer, being hostile, or making someone feel very uncomfortable/unsafe, then you're not doing the right thing.
Actually, even the polite men are being creepy. Hitting on someone you barely know, in a business environment, is just creepy cringe.
Yeah, sure, you're being a "gentleman" by backing down when she inevitably rejects such an inappropriate advance, but after the hundredth insta-suitor, it gets old and even stressful and anxiety inducing.
I totally understand, but I don't really know the answer. Men who are more aggressive (in an appropriate or inappropriate manner) tend to be more successful.
So, as a man, your options are to:
1. Ask fewer women out so that you are more respectful. This likely means you'll have less success dating.
2. Ask more women out, even in environments that might be uncomfortable, e.g. a server, co-worker, etc. They're going to have more success dating.
Again, I totally understand this sucks for women, but men don't have great options here either.
The answer is to learn to read the signals people give off when they're interested. The "more aggressive" men just aren't reading the signals. So they ask and get shot down. And they get a lower quality of relationship in the rare cases of success since they're merely playing the odds.
Get to know someone before asking them out. Find out what they're like. Know what you're like, and what kinds of people you're compatible with. Your 20s and in some cases even 30s are your opportunity to learn.
It depends on context really. Which as someone on the spectrum (childhood diagnosis, not adult) has always presented its challenges and its why I personally have erred on the side of caution. I would not personally approach a woman for instance in an instance in which she is engaged in her employment activities and im interacting as a customer/vendor/partner whatever. However it's not unfeasible that it is my feelings on the matter that are abnormal so perhaps i've been going about it all wrong.
I'd simply never want to make somebody feel uncomfortable because I choose a time that is not appropriate for such interactions. And for me, that pretty much means that unless we are sharing personal time together outside of such a relationship, then I don't engage in such activities.
Thanks for responding. I can certainly relate to feeling pressure not to upset other people, and even think that it's a healthy impulse to have, up to a point. (Certainly it's unhealthy to never feel it.) I don't think your feelings are abnormal -- to me they seem very much in agreement with current norms, in the US at least. But I would like you to think about whether the current socially decided notion of "what's appropriate" is as balanced and as good for everyone as it could be.
Social norms like this can and do change over time, and it's my opinion that this (specifically, that asking people out in a work environment is always or nearly always inappropriate) is one that should -- because I think there's an alternative set of norms that leaves essentially everyone better off. Specifically I think that if it was understood by everyone that a person asking another person out (in any context, including at work) is responsible for dealing with rejection like an adult and not continuing to pester the person, then (absent any power difference that might imply a quid pro quo situation), there would be no reason to forbid it. Most people would still hesitate to do it (asking someone out can result in rejection, rejection is embarrassing), but the kind of scenario described by Martinussen in https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=akoboldfrying#389248..., where an employee fears for their job if they don't pander to an entitled customer, won't occur.
> But I would like you to think about whether the current socially decided notion of "what's appropriate" is as balanced and as good for everyone as it could be.
I never do well with these really I think because I often have both extreme, yet very conflicting positions on almost everything. But sure.
> I think that if it was understood by everyone that a person asking another person out (in any context, including at work) is responsible for dealing with rejection like an adult and not continuing to pester the person, then (absent any power difference that might imply a quid pro quo situation), there would be no reason to forbid it.
I would say in an ideal world, realistically, yes. Despite the suggestion my post my have originally given. It was probably too flippant, for which I apologise honestly.
The next time I'm in an internet argument that seems to be escalating, I hope I will remember these last couple of comments of yours, and be as willing to reconsider my own position as you have been.
As a former male server I experienced women hitting on me in ways that I thought only men did and it didn't feel great at all. I'm sure there will be guys out there saying that's a good problem to have, but it really isn't. Especially if you have a wife already.
To describe it succinctly I and many others are a captive audience in these agreements to labor/income. I'm not necessarily attracted to you just because you are in my vicinity.
Well you can argue against procreation of human race if you want but long-term this only means no procreation of your culture and not of the human race as a whole. Other cultures, more eager to spread will take it's place eventually.
I didn’t argue against it in general, just for the case of people who pester service staff in pursuit of sexual gratification. I don’t think that’s a cultural issue, so much as one of individual boorishness.
Seeing "boorishness" and "pursuit of sexual gratification" as inherently bad things is indeed a cultural phenomenon. There are cultures that explicitly reward one or both of these.
The problem is the combination of the two, although the former is discouraged most everywhere. Being a pest is not a matter of culture, but an individual choice.
I'll +1 this, in spite of the overwhelming negative reception. Sometimes the vibe is right. Usually, people just want to get on with their lives and not be propositioned; but sometimes the chemistry is there -- and what is a person to do?
> I think you are being sarcastic, at least I hope so, otherwise, unless you are 100% abstinent, how do you expect couples to form and human to procreate? If you really are this uninformed, the way it works 99% of the time, men ask out women they are attracted to, sometimes a woman just being nice to a man is enough for him to see an "opening" and ask her out.
>I've asked out wait staff at restaurants, bar tenders, even co-workers with some success based on little more than them being nice or attractive, this is how our species reproduces, if its "bullshit" for anyone its men getting the short end of the stick, all women have to do is ignore or deny the advance, how is that "dealing with bullshit"?
You make a good point. You have personally asked out women based off them being nice or attractive, therefore it cannot be a source of irritation. It cannot have been unpleasant if kylebenzel does it
