Hence the emphasis here and in other comments about finding ways to use cars less. I diverted an entire vehicle from the dump rather than buying new and requiring additional CO2 emissions in that production process. It suits my lifestyle well. I could have bought a used EV but this car was free to me (after cost of spare parts) and I learned a lot about how to work on cars getting it up and running again. Plus sometimes I'll need to tow stuff.
Regarding payoff: My research says 5-8 years on average (12k miles per year) after accounting for production and emissions (generation for EV, gas for ICE), so I'm curious to know where you get your data.
> 300 or 500k miles is more than possible with today's EVs.
I'd like to see empirical studies on this but I suspect the sample size of EVs with that kind of mileage is too small at this point.
It's well known that EV batteries degrade faster than expected, aside from early year Prius hybrid and later Leaf batteries which seem to be holding up well for some reason. So even if the car lasts, you may have replaced the battery multiple times already.
None of this even accounts for microplastic production from tire and road wear, which goes as the fourth power of the vehicle mass. EVs obviously on the losing side of that vs bicycles, ebikes, even small ICEs.
> Regarding payoff: My research says 5-8 years on average (12k miles per year) after accounting for production and emissions (generation for EV, gas for ICE), so I'm curious to know where you get your data.
> It's well known that EV batteries degrade faster than expected, aside from early year Prius hybrid and later Leaf batteries which seem to be holding up well for some reason. So even if the car lasts, you may have replaced the battery multiple times already.
Well known by who? Leaf batteries degraded fast because they had no active cooling mechanism. That changed in 2016, which is why later Leaf batteries have held up well. Any EV car you buy today that was manufactured in the last 7 years has active cooling. Leaf was one of the last to adopt it.
Anecdotally, I drive a 2018 model 3 with 120k miles on it. The battery has degraded by 5% (310 miles to 296).
> None of this even accounts for microplastic production from tire and road wear, which goes as the fourth power of the vehicle mass. EVs obviously on the losing side of that vs bicycles, ebikes, even small ICEs.
Agree. But I'm not sure that microplastic production is something to really be concerned with. Unless we are talking about transitioning to more public transport, it's a secondary issue vs CO2 production.
Very interesting!! Especially Fig. 5. Thanks for the link.
Summary:
* ICE vs battery crossover at 18k-24k miles (1.5-2.0 years avg usage) and Hybrid vs battery crossover approx 36k-48k miles (3-4 years avg usage). Reducing car usage obviously extends those timelines.
* ICE with 12k-18k miles is equal to battery with 0 miles, Hybrid with 18k-24k miles is equal to battery with 0 miles.
Temperature and energy generation sources affect the calculations quite a bit by region regarding engine and battery efficiency and cleanliness of generation sources.
It's also important to be aware that this is a snapshot in time. (2022 to be precise). What was true then won't be tomorrow due to an evolving battery landscape and grid energy mix.
We don't for example, see a lot of batteries made from recycled material today because the demand for batteries vastly outstrips the amount of recyclable material we have. That won't be true until both the market starts to saturate with batteries and the current crop of batteries starts to hit EOL (probably 10 maybe even 20 years).
Hence the emphasis here and in other comments about finding ways to use cars less. I diverted an entire vehicle from the dump rather than buying new and requiring additional CO2 emissions in that production process. It suits my lifestyle well. I could have bought a used EV but this car was free to me (after cost of spare parts) and I learned a lot about how to work on cars getting it up and running again. Plus sometimes I'll need to tow stuff.
Regarding payoff: My research says 5-8 years on average (12k miles per year) after accounting for production and emissions (generation for EV, gas for ICE), so I'm curious to know where you get your data.
> 300 or 500k miles is more than possible with today's EVs.
I'd like to see empirical studies on this but I suspect the sample size of EVs with that kind of mileage is too small at this point.
It's well known that EV batteries degrade faster than expected, aside from early year Prius hybrid and later Leaf batteries which seem to be holding up well for some reason. So even if the car lasts, you may have replaced the battery multiple times already.
None of this even accounts for microplastic production from tire and road wear, which goes as the fourth power of the vehicle mass. EVs obviously on the losing side of that vs bicycles, ebikes, even small ICEs.