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Paul Graham on Conversations with Tyler (conversationswithtyler.com)
168 points by superposeur on Aug 10, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 112 comments



Why is there not more ambition in the developed world? Say we wanted to boost ambition by 2X. What’s the actual constraint? What stands in the way?

Here's a guess: where it once was possible to be a one person wunderkind in scientific discovery or business, it no longer is.

Great achievements have become team sports. You need multiple experts in disparate skillsets to achieve a huge business or great discovery.

Anyone smart enough to have that kind of ambition is also probably smart enough to realize that it's a huge undertaking, and huge enough that they can't do it themselves.

It also likely comes with the parallel realization (or fear) that what drives their ambition is maybe not enough to get others to join their team.

I know that holds me back in my ambitions. It's hard to convince others you have the right ideas, and that they are worth working on.


I'm going to have to disagree with the interviewer's question. I do not think there's an absence of ambition at all. I think for a particular segment of society we've actually gotten much better at putting ambitious people to work. In the past, an ambitious person had fewer options and would strike out on their own, which fueled a entrepreneurship. Now there are hundreds (thousands?) of large enterprises that slurp up ambitious individuals and put them in charge of important things.

I've been reading about postwar corporate culture recently and its pretty amazing that orgs would just sit on these amazingly talented people - and knew they were talented - but just didn't care. Not only were some of their most skilled workers not promoted, they weren't even paid more. I think WWI and WWII greatly shaped the attitude of corporate leaders from this period that you just simply hired someone to do their job and made sure they did it well and that was that. Very reminiscent of military ranks. Seniority and loyalty each mattered just as much as skill.


>I think for a particular segment of society we've actually gotten much better at putting ambitious people to work

Yes yes yes!! There's this great essay from Stephen Jay Gould on why we haven't had 0.400 hitters in baseball for so long. His argument was that the overall pool of baseball players got too good so you're not seeing strong outliers anymore! I'd say that this is a phenomenon we see across all kinds of life, not just sports.

From a paper reviewing the evidence of Gould, I can't find the original essay online:

>Gould then supposes that the decline in batting average peak (the .400 hitter, the outlier) is due to decreased variation in the population of hitters. In other words, as the skills of both hitters and pitchers improved, and as the pool of talented players to choose from increased, the variation in talent (the difference between the best to the worst batting averages) should decrease. Therefore, players in Major League Baseball in more recent period are arguably reaching the “wall” of human performance. Gould’s analysis of the data supports this idea, as the standard deviation of league-wide batting averages has decreased steadily since the early 20th century.

https://sabr.org/journal/article/can-stephen-jay-goulds-theo...


On the other hand football has seen two of its best players ever (Messi and Cr. Ronaldo) just break all sorts of records until very recently, with Messi having a decent chance of being named the best football player of all times.


Football (and most other similar sports) offer more chances for creativity and variation than batting in baseball. Hitting a baseball is a very narrow and defined task with limited room for novel development or breakthroughs. Unless there are significant rule changes in baseball we're not going to see any batters revolutionise the act of batting in any meaningful way.

Getting a ball past several defenders and scoring a goal on the other hand can be done in a near infinite number of ways, meaning there is much more room for variation, improvement and evolution.

The closest equivalent I can think of in football is a penalty kick, and I don't think there is any evidence that players are getting significantly better at scoring off penalties.


> Football (and most other similar sports) offer more chances for creativity and variation than batting in baseball.

I agree, with the caveat that football is becoming more and more like baseball and other similar (mostly US) sports which are very heavy on numbers and on stats. The recent Norwegian sensation, Haaland, seems exactly to fit that trend, as he's not particularly super-good at anything but his numbers have just been phenomenal in the last 3-4 years (when he's been fit to play, that is).

We'll see if the future will bring more Kevin De Bruyne-type of players (i.e. a very creative guy) or more Haalands.


Football has intentionally changed to become a more attractive sport.

Mostly by cracking down on violent play and letting forwards use their skills without being injured.


Messi is 35 and Ronaldo is 37. They emerged 20 years ago. The closest talent that the current generation can offer is Mbappe, and he is more one dimensional than either. Can you name someone else under age of 20?

However, watching any random league game from the big five (England, Spain, Italy, Germany, France), the standard is very high. Most players are amazingly fit and skillful, control ball extremely well. Teams play with cohesive plans. A lot of nice team movements. It shows that the standard at the professional level has risen considerably in the last few decades.

The downside of course is that it makes games more mechanical and less emotional, and it's harder to tell one team from another.

> Messi having a decent chance of being named the best football player of all times.

There is no such thing. Being considered by many, yes.


Erling Haaland is younger than Mbappe.


It may seem like football hasn't changed but just think of the overall improvements in training, fitness, nutrition, sports medicine... Nevermind changes to the way matches are officiated and even in some cases the rules have changed. And the pitches! Imagine some players from the past playing on today's laser-levelled pitches where the length of the grass is mm perfect (and specified in the manager's contract!) instead of puddles and patches of bare dirt.


I would put Ronaldo above Messi purely because he's demonstrated elite status in a variety of scenarios compared to Messi who spent most of his career at a team that was built around feeding him (and once he left, he has not performed anywhere near as well.)


And so did Tennis with the top 3 (Federer, Nadal, Djokovic) dominating the sport over 15 years


> Now there are hundreds (thousands?) of large enterprises that slurp up ambitious individuals and put them in charge of important things.

This is based on hearsay, but there's a fairly common sentiment surrounding certain big tech companies that they'll often hire highly skilled engineers to work on fairly mundane problems in order to restrict the available talent pool. Sometimes large companies will acqui-hire full teams just to avoid having to compete with them. Which is to say: I'm not sure that the allocation of talent is in an optimal configuration. But I'm also unsure how this hypothesis could be adequately falsified or measured.


"Now there are hundreds (thousands?) of large enterprises that slurp up ambitious individuals and put them in charge of important things."

I'm not sure I agree with that...

They slurp up ambitious people, put them in charge of something, work hard to convince them it's important, layer endless amounts of bureaucracy on top and around them, and pay them just enough to make sure they don't leave - I think this may be more accurate...


That's tech monopolies (FAANG etc.), which have more money than sense. In the normal businesses, there's hardly any busywork, because the relatively low margins don't allow for it.


I agree with you, ambition isn't the limiting factor. YC has so many applications, I wonder how they review all of them.


Might there not just be a semantic issue here? Unless I'm mistaken you seem to be equating ambition with doing very well at something, such as successfully climbing a corporate ladder. And that's an absolutely reasonable ambition that's also more attainable than ever, as you mentioned. But I think Paul Graham was speaking of ambition in terms of revolutionary or world-changing type stuff.

For instance in a parallel world Elon Musk ends up going to work at Boeing and perhaps even gradually works his way up to becoming their chief engineer. But in this world it's unlikely he would have even been able to create fully reusable rockets. That was not only an expensive and extremely high risk venture, but one which many key people, such as Tory Bruno (CEO of ULA - a Boeing/Lockeed partnership), were aggressively dismissive and even mocking of, until SpaceX proved it. Let alone all his other ventures like Tesla or big picture goals like creating human colonies on Mars.


If I may riff off your comment: I want to work hard with kind, smart people on hard problems and then go home to my awesome family, not make shitty people wealthy.

Is Paul smart? Or his he smart and he got lucky, and he’s trying to launder that luck into status? I hear lots of “people don’t want to work anymore” from a whole lot of lucky wealthy (“right place right time”) folks, for example. Asking in a first principals sort of way.

“Behind every great fortune lies a great crime." - Honore de Balzac


Balzac probably isn't wrong. You need at least one ruthless motherfucker on the team if you want to get dirty, shitty wealthy. Somebody has to be focused on the money; otherwise, nobody is.

I'd also postulate that a complete ignorance of money probably isn't ultimately productive to your goals. You can't work on your business without distractions if you're getting evicted, for example. (This is assuming you're not generationally wealthy.)


“If I’ve learned one thing in this life, it’s that when it’s millions of dollars at stake: you keep your head down, your nose clean, and work twice as hard as the other guy. But when it’s billions of dollars?

The only thing that matters is never, ever saying no.”

Cue Gimme Shelter by The Rolling Stones


pg had too much success too quickly for it to be chance (IMHO).

Leaving Viaweb aside (Yahoo was buying all kinds of stuff back then so it’s hard to know how cool-headed finance would have valued it) he clearly saw and exploited a massive opportunity around technology investment. And it’s worth bearing in mind that he drove several of the first few monster batches through an overall market meltdown that had a lot of VCs saying it was the end of the world.

There was a definite luck factor called the iPhone: someone was going to build an army of businesses on the back of a platform revolution like that, but he got there first and executed.

Now the public good component is a more complicated story, I honestly don’t know if replacing one club of secret-handshaking insiders who routinely fail up with a different one is a net win, and I certainly don’t buy the argument that you can measure it by market cap, but at least the new club doesn’t care who your parents are I guess? I think it’s probably a win vs. an admittedly abysmal bar.


I’ve thought about this comment a lot since you wrote it. I’m reminded of Bill Gross, “the bond king,” who founded PIMCO. Skilled, wanting to win at all costs, but who built a strategy primarily for a declining interest rate macro (“structural alpha”) that slowly became less effective near the end of his career, requiring creative maneuvers to successfully compete against competitors.

I’m not ignoring the varying degrees of skill, education, and intelligence. I’m emphasizing the luck required for all that to be effective.

Great comment, appreciate the history lesson and teachable moment.


I’m flattered that you got value from my comment, I think it’s just stuff people my age ended up watching: I think I joined HN in like 2007/2008 and that’s when pg’s essays were still considered radical and no YC company had IPO’d for zillions yet.

It was a very cool time!


> “Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."

This quote reflects a very European attitude towards wealth to me. I believe PG specifically talks about possible origins of this idea.


An Orleanist interpretation of this aphorism is as credible as Louise-Phillip's claim to the French throne. Vautrin derives this statement from a near endless litany of examples. I would strongly recommend reading Balzac to get to the origins of all this.


You can share all the true examples you want. But 19th century France and 20th century America have completely different economic models. So we can't understand that purely by studying French literature.


A truly horrible take, and sadly pessimistic.

Balzac's pronouncement assumes the world is zero-sum; ie that wealth must be stolen from others. While that may have been true of many fortunes for many centuries on earth, it is not true now. The essence of Silicon Valley is the positive-sum game. Paul's at the heart of it.

Paul has done a lot of good for a lot of people, including the founders who went through YC, which is why people pay attention to his opinions.

Giving $10k out to each founding team in the first year of YC wasn't laundering luck into status. (I doubt he cares about status.) It was changing how tech investing worked in order to liberate more tech people to recombine with each other in order to work on hard problems.


> Balzac's pronouncement assumes the world is zero-sum; ie that wealth must be stolen from others

Not stolen, but it really pays to be super-ruthless towards your competition and everyone around you really. Just look at Microsoft's history.


Some people succeed that way. Others succeed with a lot of creativity and hard work.

They may eventually face competition, and then sure, you have to compete.

To say every great fortune stems from a great crime is self-limiting at best, at worst the germ of socialism.


There aren't many great fortunes, they usually require dominating an industry (say, come to be one of top 5 vendors out of industry that initially had 10,000 competitors), and I think it's pretty unrealistic to believe you could dominate an industry without getting your hands dirty. There may be exceptions like Warren Buffet, but I think the dark path is much more common.


This is simply untrue. The number of great fortunes itself has vastly increased in tech's positive-sum economy. The increase in the number of multi-millionaires, and the growth of that class, has been deeply impacted by tech. And it's not just founders. Lots of execs and senior software engineers now possess fortunes that past ages would have considered great, even in real vs nominal dollars.

Not all industries are winner take all. And many industries remain to be invented by founders.

This fortune == crime is part of a scarcity mindset, and it's a shame that limits people.


Another dimension is access to money and financial knowledge, which I find strangely missing from the context.

Assuming you have to pay for schooling, that along with the disproportionately increasing cost of rent and property factors into people being less ambitious due to the necessity of settling for a job that pays enough to support oneself. I'm curious how Paul Graham did it, given that he has multiple higher education degrees in philosophy, attended art school in Italy, and what capital he could rely on from his parents.

It would be disappointing if they both come from money yet miss this point, given the emphasis of progressive politics on socioeconomic or cultural privilege. Of course one doesn't have to agree with it, but shouldn't it at least be discussed?


You have seen his essay addressing that? "What I Worked On", http://paulgraham.com/worked.html


Thanks for linking that; seems like it's a bit of both:

on one hand he notes that "computers were expensive in those days and it took me years of nagging before I convinced my father to buy one, a TRS-80, in about 1980", but later during his adult years "wanted to go back to RISD, but I was now broke and RISD was very expensive, so I decided to get a job for a year and then return to RISD the next fall."


I doubt an undergrad chooses not to go into science today because they see it being too collaborative. They don’t because they realize they can become a finance bro and make a metric ton more.

A lot of science seems highly collaborative yes but that’s not because of a lack of choice. It’s honestly a cop out way of doing it. See the competition between the massive effort of the human genome project and Venter going rounds around them with a small team and in the end they announced together they sequenced the human genome to save face.


> I doubt an undergrad chooses not to go into science today because they see it being too collaborative. They don’t because they realize they can become a finance bro and make a metric ton more.

It is also years of PhD and postdocs where you work a lot for a little money while having super large chance to be forced out despite your efforts. And having to move every few years where you get the job, which makes families more complicated.

Plus, competition for those slots is still high. It is not like there would be unfilled PhD or postdocs positions. There is more interests then available slots, leading to all kind of abuse.


They go into finance because everyone since the Boomers has faced a nightmare of a job market in academia and science. Why spend 5+ years for a 15% chance at a middle class job when the alternative of doing anything else is so much easier?

Kids don’t come out of college wanting to be corporate or finance bros. That happens after the world grinds them down.


"Great achievements have become team sports. You need multiple experts in disparate skillsets to achieve a huge business or great discovery."

Whether this is true or not depends somewhat on definitions, but I am going to take the counter-argument.

This is just not the case, you won't be able to evidence it that it is, and it might be this assumption that is holding you back.

In our age, momentum is towards large org-charts, and it is not clear that any greatness comes from it. The foundation of unix came from two people. Craigslist has 50 employees. Pre-acquisition, Twitter had 7000. Facebook has nearly ten times that. There is astonishing talent at the big silicon valley firms yet they reliably fall short of greatness. If lots of well-trained minds was the gateway to greatness, those firms would already have it.

Yet the original concept of twitter was great, and it was such a simple thing. If any of us went back in time to 1995, we'd build a first cut of Twitter in a weekend. But it went undiscovered until all those years later.

In this thread, Walter Bright is taking a hammering on votes for his comment. Yet here is someone who is known to have built complete toolchains for C and C++, also a java-to-native compiler, and his own language that is well-regarded, written variety of articles for journals, built applications. Here is someone who can do great things working alone. (He has also held various dayjobs building other stuff.)

"what drives their ambition is maybe not enough to get others to join their team ... holds me back"

Is it possible that your faith in the team sports model is itself what's holding you back? What could you achieve if you role-play that as being false, and consider how you would organise in light of that? What if you stopped spending energy trying to convert the unworthy, and instead put that energy to be broader yourself. You could still work with people with compatible ideas. Your profile says you are a fpga engineer. The building blocks you work with are some of the most flexible humans have had access to. There will be undiscovered twitters in your space.


Totally agree. “No great discoveries can be done by one man anymore,” seems like demoralization propaganda and it’s impossible to prove regardless.


An extension of that, we are still doing ego worshipping and attributing the success to single individuals. Both in academia (PIs get the fame, money and recognition even when they didn't initiate or even believed in the idea) or in business (CEOs or founders get pretty much the same treatment). And I wonder if that's not impending on the success of the teams.


I think in line with your point, if we did increase ambition 2x, are there enough people in a position to action their ambitions? I think there is plenty of ambition, but many people, probably the majority, are focused on making ends meet and the daily grind.

I think the 4 day work week is a great step toward enabling people to be ambitious and innovative, in whatever field drives them.


I don’t think it’s true in pure science. Like, building a team to solve the Riemann hypothesis would actually be counter productive.

In experimental science, the number of coauthors of a paper has increased, but probably not the number of active coauthors.

Even business is born out of small startups, later expanded into larger teams.


You may be interested in Terry Tao’s polymath collaborations.

https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2018/01/24/polymath-proposal-...

> As for upper bounds, de Bruijn showed back in 1950 that {\Lambda \leq 1/2}. The only progress since then has been the work of Ki, Kim and Lee in 2009, who improved this slightly to {\Lambda < 1/2}. The primary proposed aim of this Polymath project is to obtain further explicit improvements to the upper bound of {\Lambda}. Of course, if we could lower the upper bound all the way to zero, this would solve the Riemann hypothesis, but I do not view this as a realistic outcome of this project

To your point, there was some excitement and progress in the beginning, but it remains an unusual approach to mathematics.


Why is there not more ambition in the developed world?

Maybe there is just as much ambition as there ever was. Maybe people have just shifted their goals. Maybe they have different drives. Instead of aspiring to be the next Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg, maybe people have realised that this is not really what they want in life. Instead of having a strong desire for financial and business success, maybe people in the developed world have started to shift their focus to other things like friendship, family, enjoying life, and learning to be satisfied with less. Maybe in this new world we live in to be ambitious means something else. I don’t know.


I had a similar thought reading this, and I looked up ambition to check myself. ‘The desire to achieve fame, rank or power.’ You raise a good question: does power lie in solely material gain? Of course not, more and more people understand that controlling one’s own attention and time _is_ the material gain we seek. The equation is changing (has been for years, accelerated by the pandemic), not just in ‘the developed world’.

Aside: Still waking up and chewing on why the developed world is called out specifically as a thing in this question. Where does the developed world end and the undeveloped world begin?


Even simple things are hard to do in developed countries. Building a house now requires experts.

From what I've seen developing countries don't have that luxury and they accept everything might kill you. Though driving a car is much more dangerous.


Non-experts build their own houses even in developed countries. For example there is a subcommunity of folks helping each other to build DIY houses out of straw bale https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/ideas/67k-straw-bale-self-bui...

Self-sufficiency and other "simple" things are possible in developed countries, they are just intrinsically hard and this is probably a good limiting factor because basically lots of things (eg foraging) don't generally scale if a lot of people want to do them.


Cool, thanks!


I think there's an ongoing bias for many of us. During our lifetimes things have changed so rapidly, and generally positively, that we kind of assume that this is the normal direction of things. And so when things slow down we look for some profound meaning to it. In reality, we have all been fortunate enough to live through a really weird time in history.

One of my favorite quotes: "The more important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the possibility of their ever being supplanted in consequence of new discoveries is exceedingly remote. ... Our future discoveries must be looked for in the sixth place of decimals." - Albert Michelson, 1894

That quote is from from Albert Michelson of the famous Michelson-Morley experiment. [1] For some really brief background, before Einstein it was believed that light had to have a medium to travel through in space. Light was seen as a wave, and waves can't propagate in a vacuum. That medium was called the luminiferous (light) aether. Morley set out to experimentally prove the existence of this medium by showing that the speed of light measured from 2 perpendicular directions would be different, given that the trajectory of the aether, and thus the speed of propagation, would be different.

Yet he kept measuring near the exact same value for light. He was so convinced in the correctness of the luminiferous aether (which had dominated scientific thought for centuries, and was imminently logical) that he doubted his own results and would continue to repeat similar experiments for decades. Hence, the context of his quote. But then of course Einstein was soon enough to be on his way and discover relativity, which would not only completely invalidate the aether but completely revolutionize science. And then quantum mechanics was also right on the way.

The point of all of this is that Albert Michelson was convinced science had effectively come to an end in terms of major discoveries, let alone revolutions, let alone those driven by one off thinkers, in much the same way you do. And there's no real reason to think anything has really changed. Science has historically always had long lulls, as well as societies driven to the point of assuming as absolutely true ideas which are ultimately proven to be fundamentally and completely wrong, and whose assumption of truth was actually one of the reasons progress lulled.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_exper...


> Great achievements have become team sports. You need multiple experts in disparate skillsets to achieve a huge business or great discovery.

The best way to get great people to work with you is to build things that people care about. That's something you can do alone, and it's never been more accessible than it is today.


There's also the problem of housing and that living in or very close to big cities (which you need to do in order for your "ambitions" to be noticed) has become expensive as hell.

Which is to say that almost no-one has time for shitty "ambition" that would make some multi-millionaires (angel investors and the like) into multi-multi-millionaires or even into billionaires, people have to live and to pay rent and to purchase very expensive avocados (because that's the only thing that they eat, of course).

But maybe the trust-fund kids who don't have to worry about all of these things will be able to find enough ambition among themselves in order to move things forward.


"The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads"


I literally did exactly this for the five best years of my life in my late 30s, early 40s. It was absolutely soul-destroying.


> What’s the actual constraint? What stands in the way?

Consider the tsunami of hate and ridicule and "you didn't build that" directed at Elon Musk for having the temerity to think he could build rockets and having the gall to be highly successful at it.

Oh, and also build a competitive electric car company and school all the established car makers.


Some interesting points:

- he's mentioned learning gliding but I didn't know it was to cure his fear of flying (given how international he is, I would never have thought of that as an issue) - I didn't know pg collected old master paintings (although I did know they've become relatively cheap) - his optimism about fixing SF by simply removing a few bad apples from the supervisors is quite surprising to me, although I suppose he'd know way more about that topic than I do - lol at the Robert Morris anecdote. Well, he wasn't wrong, exactly... - the comments on fame ring true to me - this does seem oddly short to me, and like Cowen could've interrupted less (especially in the ambition section where Cowen diverts pg onto the shuffling-networks topic and pg never gets to finish). Maybe there was some scheduling constraint so Cowen was rushing through his usual list? I notice many of the usual tactics like overrated/underrated are absent.


I had not realized that PG and his family moved to England.

I also recently moved from California to England, so would be fascinated to learn more about the genesis of PG's move. (As an aside: I sometimes hear my kids late at night trying to convince their friends back in California to ask their parents to move here. Anecdotally it does feel like many families are considering it. Of course I have an availability bias here.)

Does anyone know of any essays or interviews where PG discusses his decision to emigrate?


PG is British. Born in England. So not sure emigrate is the right term. He must have had a strong connection with family back in UK his whole life.

He's also American, so moving between US and UK must feel pretty fluid.


> PG is British. Born in England.

Yeah, he simply went back to where he was born to raise a family.

The salmon move.


you say he's paying double taxes both in US and UK ?


Very broadly and simply speaking you can write-off UK taxes against the US tax bill and vice versa. There's much more nuance than that though.


>In the summer of 2016 we moved to England. We wanted our kids to see what it was like living in another country, and since I was a British citizen by birth, that seemed the obvious choice. We only meant to stay for a year, but we liked it so much that we still live there.

http://paulgraham.com/worked.html


> When I talk to people who are in their teens or early 20s about starting a start-up, I tell them, “Instead of sitting around thinking of start-up ideas, you should be working with other people on projects. Then, you’ll get a start-up idea out of it that you probably never would have thought of, and you’ll get a co-founder too.” I wish people would do more of that. You can get co-founders — just work with people on projects.

Great quote about how to indirectly find co-founders.


This feels far too short and rushed. Maybe with some longer form podcasts we have (fortunately) become used to full-length conversations. I would have loved 4 hours of this with more back and forth.


Cowen’s interviews are always like this. Contrary to the name, he is not actually good at having conversations and seems to just have a list of specific questions he wants to ask. It comes off as very stilted and you can usually tell that the guests are little whiplashed.


Oh, that's what I like about that show the most. He gets the guests uncomfortably outside the zone of a normal interview, both with the specificity of the questions as well as the pacing. I'm sure it's at least partly on purpose. I agree that it feels a little like a thesis defense, but I like it when you can hear the guest (someone who is usually at the top of their field and used to answering softball questions) thinking "christ, what am I supposed to say to that?"


But you don’t get good responses. Instead it’s just, “I hadn’t thought of that” or “That’s a good question but I’d need to think about it awhile.”

The idea that an expert should be able to give a fully-formed answer to a novel question on the spot is not a good one. Thinking takes time, which Cowen doesn’t give his guests. Subsequently most of his interviews are notable for their anecdotes or trivia, not for insightful responses.


TC’s questions are far from random, but designed to be just adjacent to things the guest has commented on previously, or which he suspects they have may have given thought. If a guest gives a long discursive answer, he lets them go on or asks follow ups. Otherwise, he keeps moving forward to the next question, like drilling for oil. PG is never discursive in his answers, so this results in a rapid fire question-answer that nonetheless I found interesting.

PG kept saying how hard the questions were, but I wish he’d instead been more willing to just concentrate and go with the flow as the results would have been even more interesting.


I guess that style appeals to some people, but I don’t think it’s conducive for good conversations. A better conversationalist knows how to pull out a thread and keep the conversation going without immediately jumping to an unrelated topic. A real-life conversation like this would be just as jarring.


As an economist Cowen knows that the more conversational market for podcasts is already saturated, and decides not to pursue it. I personally prefer that the questions Cowen makes show that he knows rather well who he is interviewing and why. Someone like Lex Fridman is in comparison less prepared. The downside with Lex's style is that some interviewees are so used to do a performance talk on their work that it's like listening to a broken record -- those who know nothing about the person get to hear a shallow introduction, whereas those who know the person learn nothing new compared to the papers, books, or other youtube videos.

Like, if you have been on a podcast yourself you might prefer Fridman kind of discussion in which you can quite freely lead hence get your agenda across. It is quite clear many visit Fridman because they know they will get to sell their ideas.


TC says he is well-prepared for interviews, that he has read this book and listened to that interview of the current guest, but then asks questions that are way out of the interviewee's circle of competence, interests, or knowledge.

"Do you prefer this conductor or this other one?". And the guest has never listened to either of them. Similar questions are asked at every interview, and sometimes several times during the same interviews. To me, it sounds more pretentious than prepared.


I disagree, when he is interviewing really intelligent people it often works out quite well.


Most of his guests are quite intelligent. His style generally works well with people who have expertise in something or are just generally deep thinkers. He also picks interesting guests that people are generally aware of (sometimes). The mainstream guests are the by far the worst interviews, the PG one being a great example.


He has very specific questions and theses he wants to get through with each person. You’ll certainly love it or hate it.

I enjoy that he often ventures outside of the common questions you would expect. Usually if you’ve heard someone on one podcast, you’ve heard them on all of them


I don't mind the atypical questions, I just dislike that he jumps from one to the next without really digging into them. Maybe it's just a time limitation.


There was (there is, but now he is older and much less popular) a famous Italian TV host, Giovanni Minoli, who had the same style of interviewing (you can find some of his interviews from the 1980s and 1990s on youtube; they are in Italian, but you can use a youtube translation tool). He was quick to speak, did not let the interviewee finish, and used to jump from one topic to another suddenly and unexpectedly. The same style as TC's, but Minoli and his team were way more prepared.


I’m not sure why that is. He has dig into some answers in the past but maybe he had pre-thought out responses or something


As a non-native speaker, I don't understand the exact meaning of being whiplashed in this comment. Online translators only point to the direct translation of someone being hit with a whip.

In here, does whiplashed mean something like being utterly surprised?


Dictionary.com has:

2. an abrupt snapping motion or change of direction resembling the lash of a whip.

6. to affect adversely, as by a sudden change: new taxes whiplashing corporate earnings.

Which is pretty accurate. Have you ever been on a roller coaster or similar ride at a theme park and been suddenly jerked in the opposite direction? That's basically what whiplash is.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/whiplash


Kind of: "move suddenly and forcefully, like a whip being cracked". So in this case is that the guests are taken aback, surprised, put off by the sudden changes in the conversation.

Also, obligatory clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEdRnBR_Y48


More likely should he do a podcast with Lex Fridman, no?


Tyler Cowen is a much better interviewer than Lex Fridman imo

Cowen is not very flexible and clearly just is running through a list of questions, but I would take that over Fridman’s relatively shallow and boring questions like “what is love” any day


I'm probably in the minority here but I don't really care a lot for Fridman's podcasts unless maybe it's a guest I'm really really interested in hearing. For a 1:1 conversation/interview, I personally find 1 hr. is about the limit--and when I had a podcast, I usually kept it to more like 30 minutes.


Minority, but not alone.

What annoys me most about Fridman is that he manages to snag a number of truly excellent guests ... and then produces truly mediocre interviews of them.

That and ... a three-hour ramble is simply too long. Either edit it down or break it up, or both.


I don't know if it's possible to build an audience as large as Fridman’s without superficial treatment of wide ranging topics.

(I appreciate his efforts but I don't consider him a geek of any discipline or field, limiting his depth overall.)


Isn’t he a MIT professor? That seems like an awfully high bar


He is not a professor, and you would be surprised how little being an MIT affiliate means


Lex is Rogans little brother who’s into Dostoyevsky and existentialism and computers instead of comedy, MMA and psychedelics


Also, teenager-level philosophy.


Why do we have not so many great individual players anymore but great teams? Is our rate of progress and build slowing down? Can the brilliance of an individual overshadow big tech?

Why did we have the best quarter in growth for public companies and why is it taking longer private companies to go public?

More than ambition the rules of the game and the frontier has now changed. I don't think ambitious people don't exist - they just realize this is better realized by being within a larger ecosystem and having influence rather than building everything around oneself.

Would we say Hinton was ambitious? Did he have sufficient impact?


"Why do we have not so many great individual players anymore but great teams? "

IMO this hasn't changed as much as it seems from the outside. The brilliant individual leaders of the past owed most of their success to their team members, and most high-functioning teams today, if you study how they work internally, do actually have a key leader who is aligning everyone around a shared vision. What's changed is that it's no longer seen as a positive to boost the profile of the leader too far the rest of the team.


Ambitions are mostly defined by external stimuli, that is what does a society value? Value not in terms of the actual praise, but what are the things they keep talking about.

If we look at it from a narrow definition of tech, we realize there aren't many ambitious individual players. The premise becomes hard to justify if we were to include so many teenagers on insta/tiktok/twitch getting a lot of following and making content individually (where in the past it take a full crew to make such stuff) and newer creators wanting to join that club.

I think many people are still ambitious. Just that (for quite a few people) their ambition is no longer to work 10 years to build an everlasting company, or do original research to get themselves a nobel, but just to gain the fame and following that comes with social media. In an abstract sense, for a select set, the end goal of ambition was the adulation and fame you got after doing your thing well. Of course, there is another set where ambition is to build a lasting thing and they continue to work towards that. Just that former set outnumbers the latter easily, and it's never easier for that set to achieve their goal.


It's a good interview and Tyler like pretty much always has an absurd breadth of knowledge on the topics he asks about but I wish he could just drop some of the economics jargon at times, even Paul seemed to be confused by it lol.

COWEN: Why and how did so many things here end up undercapitalized? The water utilities, the NHS — it seems to be a consistent pattern. That could make us more pessimistic because the flow numbers don’t reflect the fact that capital maintenance is even worse than we had thought.

GRAHAM: I don’t know. You’re an economist. I don’t know what the term capital maintenance means.

I mean come on instead of "what exactly, in the smallest number of dimensions, are you better at than the other people?", you can just ask, "what are your core strengths"


Paul Graham has the rare but admirable habit of saying "I don't know" when he doesn't know something.


Man, I really hate platform specific podcasts that require a special player or account. Spotify in general seems to be “bad” about taking an open podcast out out through an rss feed that was playable anywhere and making it exclusive.

It’s a tale as old as time, but it’s the inconvenience of upsetting an ingrained personal habit (open podcast player, look for new episodes) and having to add an extra step (open Spotify, look for new episodes).

This is good for Spotify but bad for users. I want to organize my information and optimize my behavior. Not do dumb, unnecessary steps because it makes Spotify more money.


Is this discontent coming from the embedded player on the linked page? Because yes, that's a Spotify player, but in case you missed it: there are three links at the top of the page, for Google, Apple and Spotify. And if it's an old school RSS feed you want, here you go: https://cowenconvos.libsyn.com/rss


Thank you. Yes, I played around with the widget looking for the feed link and couldn’t find it. I should have searched around the page to see the other links. So this isn’t exclusive and I assumed using a bad embedded player was the result of being forced to use it, rather than some other reason.


Joe Rogan has entirely lost me because of this friction. I was only an occasional listener before but after trying one episode in Spotify I just gave up. The attempt to switch between video and audio only when locking and unlocking my phone, and the subsequent skip in audio, ruined it for me.


Indeed, same with me. I don’t think I’m a “super fan” enough to follow him and others to platforms.

I understand people switching and as much as I’d like to think that I would refuse $100M to switch my HN comments to a different, parallel, crappier internet; I suspect I would fail that test and take the $100M.


I think this is the real tragedy at the moment- it makes sense for content producers to switch to the highest bidder, and it makes sense for platforms like spotify to offer exclusive contracts. The end result is we all act rational and it still winds up worse for users- I don't really know what it would take for the incentives to change for the better?


Just read the transcript.


Is there any way I could download this episode's spotify url as an mp3? https://open.spotify.com/episode/6QQr6eO9qgQTwdo7UbdiXq

I tried a couple of sites online (spotiydown, spotifymate), which both failed.

yt-dlp fails. spotdl fails.


Not the Spotify version (if it's different in some way) but it is syndicated here: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/cowenconvos/CWT-189-PaulGr...


open the interview site (parent, not spotify) in browser with dev mode open

click network bar, look for media file that's currently streaming

should be about 45mb mp3 file: right click, copy as curl

then paste it into a terminal, append " -O" then press enter


PG on the problem with fame: “‘The world sucks because of tech, and tech sucks because of Paul Graham.’” lol


I'm interested in the Dark Ages thing. If we instantiated PG as an AI and asked it to give its best guess, as to why (human) creation went dark, what would it speculate?


No acknowledgment by them how easy it's been to push on open doors (QE and ZIRP).


[flagged]


You really need to stop doing this.


His boys? MOC? What are you talking about?


Michael O. Church. The guy who basically everyone hates after spending 20 minutes with him.


Please don't respond by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


Look, I like mchurch, but I think griping about rumors here is uncalled for. If you've got any actual details, spill them.


Is it really a rumor when a party to the drama is the one bringing it up?




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