Axis cameras are high end and expensive, but they will, in my experience, do anything an IP camera could reasonably be expected to do, and they will do it well. They are European in origin and are available from various retail outlets to ship this week.

Geovision cameras are low end and not expensive. They are Taiwanese in origin and are pretty easy to find.

I have personally configured a wide range of cameras from both of these manufacturers and I have never needed an app or internet connectivity. It's been a few years since I looked at Geovision's product lineup though, my information is not 100% current. I don't have any specific camera recommendations. If I were setting up a home NVR today, I would buy Geovision cameras and put them on an isolated network.

Both of these manufacturers are nominally ONVIF compliant (ONVIF compliance is a mixed bag and can't be fully trusted from any manufacturer IMO) and have readily accessible RTSP streams

My Geovision experience is also not current either. I've got three Customers using their cameras in isolated VLANs w/o Internet access. Both hardware and software reliability have been very good. Some of the outdoor units are coming up on 7 years old and still working fine. I think, in total, there are around 300 (mostly indoor) cameras in all their systems combined.

I work at a site w/ >100 Axis cameras, also w/o Internet access. They're phenomenal devices-- built like tanks-- but very expensive. I particularly like that you get root on the cameras (which are running Linux). There are third-party applications that can run directly on the cameras.

But they're expensive. They do have cheaper models nowadays, though. In addition to explosion-proof ones: https://www.axis.com/en-us/products/explosion-protected-came...

I was given a tour of an industrial facility where conditions required explosion-proof equipment. The tour guide made a point of calling out the explosion-proof motors in one of the rooms.

One of the other tour group members asked the question "Why would it matter if these motors survived an explosion?"

I visualized the facility exploding in a fiery blaze and a motor, fully intact, tracing a high parabola into the sky and landing, unscathed, in the front yard of a house.

The tour guide had to awkwardly answer: "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."

Especially for cameras in potentially hazardous or critical areas, being able to capture details of their final moments could be important (obviously great to have cameras which [also] don't cause explosions in the first place).

I can also think of many situations in which you would want motors which are rated to survive for some time through an explosion, for example something which is powering a fire sprinkler or ventilation system to give people time to escape. The military has "battle switches" on lots of equipment for this reason, better to remove safeties and destroy the equipment than have the equipment protect itself and stop working in a critical situation, potentially costing a soldier their life.

It was a formative experience for me, too. I try really, really hard to explain terms-of-art to my audience if I'm unsure of their familiarity. "Reading the room" can be difficult sometimes so I try to always preface w/ "Stop me if you know this already...".

I also learned not to be afraid to speak up when terminology isn't familiar to me. I've no doubt that's made me look ill-informed in some situations. I'll always take the judgement of others re: my knowledge vs. acting on a bad assumption later.

There are consequences (sometimes significant ones) from assuming somebody knows what you're talking about. People who act like they understand something when they don't (either because they're afraid to ask, or because they don't know they don't understand) are dangerous.

That bit made me think otherwise.

> I also learned not to be afraid to speak up when terminology isn't familiar to me.

100% agreed. I don't care much if others think I'm stupid. I care about actually being educated and understanding the situation. If someone thinks me asking questions makes me stupid, I'm probably better off with them thinking that and avoiding me for it :)

> That bit made me think otherwise.

I could have phrased that better. It was clearly awkward for the tour guide. I think the guide could have handled it in a less awkward way— maybe with some humor.

I found it amusing by way of the image it created in my mind, but that shouldn’t be taken as me discouraging others asking questions.

Surely that should be "non-explosive".

Otherwise rain-proof and fire-proof could have interesting overloaded definitions...

Wait, what? The implication is that their other cameras regularly cause explosions?

Some electronics use a spark gap as a form of surge protection:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_gap#/media/File:PCB_Spar...

None of that would be acceptable in an environment that requires intrinsically safe equipment.

The electronics also need to be carefully current-limited so there's no chance they overheat and cause an explosion that way too.

Explosion proof / flame proof enclosures don't prevent explosions. Their sole purpose is to contain the explosion and to ensure that the gases escaping from the enclosure do not ignite the surrounding atmosphere. The beauty of a flameproof enclosure is that I can put standard, non-protected electronics into an enclosure and use them in a hazardous area. It's a much more affordable way of deploying electronics into hazardous areas, rather than designing from scratch and certifying.

Non-explosion protected electronics... sure. All you need is an atmosphere of sufficient concentration and a spark with sufficient ignition energy OR a hot surface that is above the atmosphere's auto ignition temperature (think a hot resistor on a PCB). Some chemicals have absurdly low auto ignition temperatures or ignition energies. Engineers must spec equipment for chemicals they expect to encounter within the hazardous area. Engineers also have to factor in how often the flammable atmosphere will be present. All of this is spelled in out IEC60079 for Europe and RoW. US has their own standards.

Another industry term for this is Intrinsically Safe.

[1] https://blog.pruftechnik.com/intrinsically-safe-vs-explosion...

XPQ1785

Starts the washer. When the sequence starts, the camera moves to the configured position to receive the wash spray. When the whole wash sequence is completed, the camera returns to its previous position. This icon is only visible when the washer is connected and configured.

Starts the wiper.*

https://help.axis.com/en-us/axis-xpq1785

https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cris/README

Edit: Official Linux support was removed with 4.17 in 2018

https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/6/3/142

If an independent shop wants 2 cameras you charge them enough to make a profit on the overhead of dealing with them (or point them to a retailer if they want less than a pallet).

If Walmart want 2 cameras to try out you give them (or loan them) to them for free knowing if they like them you'll be shipping them by the pallet for years.

Edit: added missing word.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Communications

Such a rarity nowadays--great to hear.

(not to fear-monger, just something to note)

Would recommend both of them. Notably, I had one exterior camera fail (wouldn’t run off PoE), and the Axis support/RMA process was smooth and fast.

It also, relevantly for this thread, will do standard video transmission w/o any cloud/app components.

Most camera you get that are cheaper are trading off in one or more of these areas to recoup cost.

Otherwise its just a single ethernet line from the camera to your switch, Axis cameras (and any others that support PoE and outdoor installs) have a nice shielded bit that the cable goes into at the camera end so its protected from the elements.

In larger installs it’s a VRF dedicated to the camera subnets and a similar dedicated NIC arrangement on the server.

Nothing should talk to the cameras except the recording server they’re streaming to.

Annoyingly, few TVs have multicast receivers, it's all Chromecast etc, so you need your own computers to decode and display.

You can find older used HD resolution Axis cams fairly inexpensively on eBay. They have a lot of different chassis/lens configurations and a lot model numbers so some research might be required to find the right camera configuration for your desired use case, especially if searching through the used market for models that have been discontinued by Axis.

I think they’re still the industry leader too. The catch is that they are expensive and they’re mainly enterprise solutions

ONVIF cameras, or cameras that support ONVIF are capable of communicating settings and streaming video to recording servers without intermediaries. RTSP or MJPEG are available as media layers ( not the only ones, but ones called out so far in the conversation as desirable for viewing and recording), but the ONVIF configuration makes this easier.

Looking for ONVIF cameras will help you find cameras that might not NEED the app for full functionality use even though, like Reolink, they may offer one. The NVR is the appropriate "glue" for those app functions.

Examples of ONVIF NVRs are not rare, but self-hostable, and free to try or use at some scale are hard to find. These are often the Big Boys. Milestone XProtect, Senstar [ Aimetis] Symphony, but also more DIY options like iSpy, Blueiris, and things in the middle, like Orchid from IPConfigure [1] that you can run on a Raspberry Pi at a small scale, or a Hybrid Cloud setup for enterprise use.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ONVIF [1] - https://www.ipconfigure.com/

The only downside hardware-wise is I don't get any indoor IR night vision with these, which some of the nicer "smart home" account-locked ones do.

It's honestly not too bad to set up if you run [1] and [2] in Docker. I've done disaster recovery scenarios of my home infra where I straight up disconnect the modem's uplink and everything works without any issues.

[1] - https://github.com/bluenviron/mediamtx

[2] - https://github.com/seydx/camera.ui

As a Comcast customer in a region with no competing provider, I really respect and appreciate their proactive stance toward ensuring all their customers frequently have the opportunity to reaffirm this level of confidence in our local networking infrastructures.

I also have a few IR cameras that work ok. The biggest issue is finding decent ir LEDs.

The ones that come with the IR cameras aren't great. I purchased standalone IR LEDs, which are better for reliability and ir illumination.

This was originally done to keep all that traffic off my main LAN, but it has a handy anti-cloud/anti-spyware firewall purpose too. My Chinacams come from an era, though, where all you had to do is uncheck "cloud" in the ridiculous ActiveX required GUI setup, and that was it for them trying to access the internet. Things may have changed; the last of these didn't even let me set a password to get into the GUI before activating through the cloud and that was a few years ago.

Spending extra to get a commercial grade camera is really not that bad if you plan to use the camera for a while.

[1] https://www.onvif.org/conformant-products/

I personally prefer Bosch and Hanwha cameras. Great optics, low light performance and solid firmware. Axis tends to be expensive and low light performance is not as good, for the price. UniFi Protect cameras are decent, but the standalone firmware is rather limited.

I connect these cameras to Frigate[1] locally.

Some example model numbers: Bosch Flexidome IP Starlight 6000 Dome Security Camera - NIN63023A3; Hanwha Techwin XNO-8080R WiseNet X Series Network Bullet Camera 5MP 3.7-9.4mm; AXIS P1468-LE Bullet Camera

I usually find these on eBay.

[1] https://github.com/blakeblackshear/frigate

I know UBNT have had a few missteps recently, but in general I like their kit and am pretty happy with it.

Do you happen to know a way to use the audio-backchannels of the to broadcast audio out of the cameras? And/or use them as "speakerphone" with SIP/xy? Somehow integrate them with pipewire?

I can only conclude that they must be selling access to feeds, because even the most incompetent agile product delivery manager type person isn’t going to simply suggest every camera needs an account along with all the extra engineering requirements involved for that for simply no reason - there surely must be a financial motive.

Furthermore what good is the feed if they can’t also sell the associated metadata, such as the account holders details, nearby WiFi access points, the list of devices on the network.

This is yet another angle they can use to try track every aspect of a home including the infamous example of Samsung “analysing” what type of content you’re watching and selling that to ad companies.

OP is probably better off looking at enterprise/industrial manufacturers.

Eh, probably they're just targeting users who want to view their CCTV on their phone when away from home, without their camera ending up visible to the whole world.

I mean, if you're selling a retail product to consumers, very few of them know WTF things like ONVIF are.

https://openwrt.org/toh/netgear/r7000

Most products like this have some kind of "harder way" to set up without an account, while the smartphone way uses an account. For a router usually means that if you want the old-fashioned manual way you need to visit the router's gateway IP and set it up from there.

Sometimes "the smartphone way" even has a way around having to make an account, it's just that it's hard to find or discouraged. E.g., I set up my HP printer without an account or any ink subscriptions (and I even think it's a great printer, shocking, I know).

(I had a Nighthawk device relatively recently and it had no need for an account, but I don't actually know if this has changed recently)

Once that is done you can use the browser for a few things, but for WiFi password and all I think app is still needed. Couldn't find a way to do it other way.

Worst thing is that this stupid Xfinity app eats phone battery like crazy. So I had to disable background activity and bluetooth permissions once I was done with the activation and initial setup.

- my most recent Comcast/Xfinity experience

You haven't noticed many of the companion apps for IoT(of Shit) have those "store"/"discover'/"savvy user center" sections where they try their best to get you to buy more of their devices? Plus a barrage of notifications, in-app banners or emails how you're eligible for a "discount" or "promo"?

This - plus online services (re-broadcasting outside of home network, recording storage, face/object/sound recognition and notifications, etc - any software features that can be pay-gated, especially those that can't be done on-device because the device is ultra-cheap) is how they make money.

> I can only conclude that they must be selling access to feeds

I'm skeptical. Who's the buyer and what are they going to do with those feeds to make them useful? And if it's for something remotely legal - how they're going to untaint this data?

This works in cyberpunk novels - cameras sweeping data, AIs detecting that a neighborhood is $brand turf, classifying all the individuals, ..., massive profit! But reality is messier and way less logical than any fiction (and we don't have any AIs yet, while fiction has them abundant and dirt-cheap). Out of curiosity, I've just had a long session with GPT-4 (which is a really uneconomical way to do advertising, but maybe in 5-10 years?), telling it all I see in my room in extreme detail, down to all the scuff marks and pet hairs. It wasn't exactly bad - it managed to realize the obvious (which is much cheaper to deduce from my search and purchase history, huh), but let's say I haven't made any new records on my purchase list.

coulda just gone with Internet of Turds (IoT)

Their basic range all have a web GUI, RTSP and ethernet/wifi. Have a look at the M11 range, or the M30 for a cheap dome camera.

I heard they are the go to brand for any goverment organisation that cares about security and privacy.

Check out the UniFi subreddit for details.

Very disappointed, as that was my go to brand for standalone IP cameras.

It's just impossible for a business not to screw customers, isn't it?

https://randomnerdtutorials.com/esp32-cam-video-streaming-fa...

I'm for sure looking for an alternative though.

If so: on my desk right now is a Raspberry Pi Zero with a NoIR camera, configured so that when it gets power a small Python script starts up as a web server and begins hosting the camera output.

Here's the code for both the server and a webpage to auto-refresh the camera view. MIT license, so have fun:

https://github.com/BenWheatley/PiWebcam

A little example using my old galaxy s11. ( its connected to a pc using usb, airplane mode, no internet )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CDE7PsLwzk

Although, this probably works well for a device with a removable battery and that can be powered by USB alone.

Otherwise you may run into various issues caused by phone self-limiting power it takes from USB port. Some kind of negotiation needs to happen before the phone can safely raise the input power limits. If it needs more than currently allowed, it will just poweroff immediately, instead of satisfying the excess need from the battery.

I had assembled something like that for my old SGS2 alarm clock out of a POE-5V splitter, an USB otg adapter, an Uhubctl-compatible USB-HUB powered by the POE-Splitter, and assorted cabling including a lead to the internal battery terminal with the top bar of an old battery (It contains some electronics). UGLY. Does anybody know a pre-made device like that?

As an analogy, you have a 40 year old Ferrari in pristine condition that really doesn't have much work value, but still a fast classic car. also you daily drive a 5 year old cheap truck. if your daily breaks down, would you replace it with your Ferrari which is certainly "faster" and better quality?

Give it a look in case it's something you'd need.

As for Wyze, WYZE has "dafang hacks" and also "official firmware" that converts the camera to an RTSP.

They perform quite well even in direct sunlight(47C temperature) and rain. Low light performance is not super great but I can't blame the camera for that.

The only thing missing is the lack of IPv6. I like everything else about it. I have the 510A, 810A and duo 2 poe

But above all, it's exactly this that's the biggest problem. I'd wager like 75% of devices have an OpenIPC capable chipset. But there's only rudimentary tracking of what devices have what chipsets.

And it's unknown what other wrinkles folks might run into if they do get a device with a valid chipset. Most should just work, but a number will also require more embedded hacking.

Such an amazing project though. Stunningly wide support for a huge array of chipsets.

I'm also curious if anyone has found cameras available through Amazon or Ali which guarantee support.

edit: I found this -- https://github.com/OpenIPC/wiki/blob/master/en/guide-support...

1: https://a.co/d/8k1BWBY 2: https://a.co/d/4a0xnPP

For Wifi ones, like my doorbell camera, I had to use their app to connect them to Wifi but subsequently block their internet access with no issues. I can still react to events and control settings using Home Assistant and the Dahua HACS plugin.

Cam v2 - https://download.wyzecam.com/firmware/rtsp/demo_4.28.4.51.bi...

Cam v3 - https://download.wyzecam.com/firmware/rtsp/demo_v3_RTSP_4.61...

Cam Pan v1 - https://download.wyzecam.com/firmware/rtsp/demo_4.29.4.51.bi...

but the second time it was exposed they knew of the open exploit for quite some time and chose not to patch it right?

I think a lot of the problems with IP cams aren't with the cameras themselves, but the poor state of open-source media players. Getting mplayer, ffplay, or vlc to play nicely with any ipcam has been a Labor of Hercules. If you're using the versions in repos--which are usually quite stale--all bets are off. I've had much better luck using the latest installers, direct from the project websites. So far, VLC seems to work best for me[1].

[0] https://github.com/BourgeoisBear/amdacli

[1] https://www.videolan.org/vlc/

The cloud thing can be disabled from their web UI or the HTTP API, but between all of the knock-offs out there (of any brand), and the eventual end of firmware updates, it's best not to trust any of this stuff.

I use a Debian Linux router with nftables to achieve this in my homelab.

There are different maintainers for different models, but as far as I can tell they're all pretty similar: https://github.com/search?q=yi%20hack&type=repositories

Edit to add they work pretty well with Home Assistant with this HACS integration: https://github.com/roleoroleo/yi-hack_ha_integration

My current setup is Samsung cameras (bought at Costco years ago) which are now suffering from the aforementioned problem. Before that I used RPi with OTS USB cameras and OSS webcam s/w. The RPi burned through their memory cards in short order however. It does appear from the posts here that Axis has the market still.

There is a max number of cameras though.

You could spin up your own ShinobiCCTV if NVRs are your problem.

I looked at DIY with Raspberry Pi high quality cameras, but the outdoor requirements mean I really need a manufactured housing. (Camera will be in an area very hard to reach for servicing.)

I wonder if there is any project to hack the generic chinese camera makes and install custom firmware?

Even if you don't use Synology, this is a handy list. https://www.synology.com/en-us/compatibility/camera

It is known to have major vulnerabilities https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/over-80-000-e...

So, Hikvision seems to not be a great answer in 2023 after all (an apparent 100% shift from just several years ago). I wonder about the current status of the ban, and what the rebranders and their distributors are doing; a cursory look at web material still shows Hikvision-derived products AFAICT (though I haven't checked in much depth).

As for management software; a dedicated NVR appliance is most convenient IMO in terms of hands-off just-works, but if one wanted to put more time and resources into it, Blue Iris looked interesting the last time I looked several years ago; again, I wonder how that landscape may have updated since then.

As long as you take a pretty hard stance to wall off the Hikvision stuff from the outside internet, it seems fairly harmless. Obviously this requires setting up your internet to manage that, but that's not impossible.

https://www.hikvision.com/en/support/cybersecurity/security-...

Precondition:

The attacker has access to the device network or the device has direct interface with the internet

Last I knew, they were using Axis cameras, but that was a few years ago.

I've recently worked with some of D-Links consumer IP cameras, DCS-8302LH and DCS-8000LHV2. They offer an app and optionally cloud storage but they ship with ONVIF support. No web interface afaik, but what I found was that I just needed to start interacting through ONVIF to get going with a local-only setup (this would automatically disconnect the camera from the app as well).

These cameras are some of the cheapest available, but they have been solid.

I'd love to go Axis, those are AMAZING. But an Axis dome camera is about $600 and Reolink is $90. If you're a business, Axis is the way to go. For home? Reolink.

All the individual cameras in my house are on their own LAN simply because they are plugged directly into the Reolink NVR. I can block the NVR from internet access if I choose. Doesn't seem to need it, other than for remote camera viewing. Which I can do via tailscale.

Probably not the price range you're thinking of. PTZ control and preview is via a normal webpage.

https://www.canon.co.uk/ptz-cameras/cr-x300/

I noticed the "consumer" ones that are targeted at the non-techy have that issue.

But last I saw the 60$ PTZ model didn't require an app at all (admittedly a little bit ago)?

Worst of all, they'll stealthily enable a "trial" subscription for 3 months when you set them up in local mode, so they seem ok until they get crippled with demands for a subscription fee.

You want something yumcha like https://www.alptopsecurity.com/20.html

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07S47VXGY

I cannot attest whether they phone home or not as I run them on an isolated network, but they work fairly well and the web UI exposes all the features the camera has.

this exposes RTSP/ONVIF and also allows for local motion detection and recording capabilities.

i also use https://www.scrypted.app/ to handle MQTT for motion detection events from the camera and restream to apple home to take advantage of notifications on my phone, remote streaming, etc.

this works fairly well, the downsides are that the install process is probably more involved than it should be, and the stand it comes with is just /ok/ but the mounting bracket is such that you can 3d print your own fairly easily. 1080 stream quality is good enough tho i'm sure there are better quality cameras on the market.

TS Mpeg stream to a home NAS

I had to wrap the microphone cable in aluminium foil and expand the plastic microphone hole to get decent sound capture. But they’re cost effective and stay in the LAN

http://www.dericam.com/index.php?s=/List/index/cid/9.html

They are available on Amazon.

There's a Taiwanese brand Vivotek that makes some relatively affordable NDAA cameras. I'm hoping to try them out myself, but unfortunately haven't had time yet.

Dahua and Hikvision are cheap but they're like E.T. - they phone "home".

i have a bunch of power-over-ethernet cameras installed in my home. all the ethernet cables route back to a server box, which has a hard drive for saving the video for about a week. it also has a mobile app that lets me view the feeds in realtime. so far, so good.

now, what can i do to also route the video footage to, say, AWS or some other cloud storage option, and have it deleted after a week or so, the same as my camera hub server currently does?

i figure this will require me to buy a new server hub box, and that is fine with me. the one i have now is adequate, at best. i'd rather have a better one.

I am not affiliated with them, other than that I've bought equipment from them in the past.

In general, you probably want to look more towards the commercial CCTV market, even at the cheap end, rather than at any cameras aimed directly at home consumers.

Smearing is bad. If you want to identify anything, it's worthless. If the goal is to just see if anything is there, then almost any camera works... But that's not useful for much.

With some simple detours, you can set up a Protect system -- cameras and "console" (NVR) -- to operate completely independent of the cloud, or altogether isolated if you like. Attractive devices and family-friendly. Homekit compatible via an excellent Homebridge plugin.

Not necessarily the cheapest, but, again, there are no recurring fees, either, as there would be for much equipment of similar quality.