Which closes the loop to my point, that Simula 67 is much closer to the mainstream OO concepts we see in C++, Java, C# and Python than Smalltalk, and there is no reason to elevate Self (nor ST) as the "ur OO language".
Which I agreed with you is a reasonable stance. To quote myself:
> Ii is, because it inspired both the Smalltalk branch and the more mainstream OO languages, and hence it makes sense to consider it as a possible ur-language in that sense.
I then went on to argue simply that because Smalltalk is at the root of a significant branch, I wouldn't have an issue with considering that an ur-language if one considers that branch important enough and/or consider message passing and late binding to be essential for a language to be object oriented, as opposed to having some object oriented features.
But I went on to again agree with you:
> I agree with you that Simula at least on the surface will seem more familiar to people familiar with ALGOL-derived languages with OO mechanisms than to Smalltalk.
To sum it up: I've argued that a reasonable case can be made either for Simula or Smalltalk depending on how you define OO, but that no well established definition of OO would make Self a reasonable candidate.
