For the purposes of this discussion I don’t think the underlying engine really matters (I’m not supporting Apple’s rule here). 99% of users are going to be downloading Chrome or FF to have a consistent UX and sync their bookmarks, history and passwords. iOS respects the default browser and mail client in this case.
> I don’t think the underlying engine really matters
It is what makes all the difference here.
Many features that are a Web Standard are unsupported on iOS precisely because Apple refuses to allow alternative engines because they don't want those features on their platform (mostly to favor native apps under the pretext of security, like if Google is not capable of making a secure browser, at least as secure as Safari).
Chrome and Firefox on iOS are not the same Chrome and iOS that run on all the other platforms, they are basically Safari.
99% of users don’t care that it’s the same engine. They probably don’t even know. Looks the same, works the same, what does it matter? They just want to pick the browser name they trust, log in to its account and have all their favorites/bookmarks there. Whichever engine the browser happens to use is the least of their concerns.
it matters in the same way a Honda disguised as a Mercedes it's not a Mercedes. It's a Honda.
> Whichever engine the browser happens to use is the least of their concerns.
Not disagreeing with you on this, that's the way it should be.
OTOH, using simple logic, if it doesn't matter Apple would allow other browser engines on their platform, because it doesn't matter. But apparently it does matter. It matters so much that EU is trying to force Apple to permit alternative implementations of the software called "a Web browser".
Anyway, we have a precedent:
"Microsoft distributed its browser software, Internet Explorer, among consumers for free. It led to a concentration of the market share and the eventual downfall of Netscape, the company’s top competitor at the time. The DoJ case alleged that Microsoft was intentionally making it extremely difficult for consumers to install software by other companies on personal computers that ran on Microsoft’s operating system."
I don’t think that’s a good analogy. Mercedes and Hondas have tangible differences in performance and amenities. On the other hand, Chrome, Firefox, Safari etc. are built to operate to the same standard and work identically on approximately 100% of websites anyone ever uses.
So why is Apple scared of other browser engines that "work identically on approximately 100% of websites anyone ever uses"?
The point of my analogy wasn't to prove that Chrome is better than Safari, but that if I want an Honda, I do not want a car that looks like an Honda, I want an Honda (or a Mercedes or a Renault).
Android has the same problem with WebView, it's Chrome by default, but at least on Android GeckoView exists.
There must be a reason why Apple resists so much to making alternative engines available and nobody is buying that it is about security.
Because one is a clearly declared policy that anyone can look up (even though you, or regulators of a certain country, disagree with it). I’m sure there’d be a lot less outrage if it was Microsoft’s policy that other rendering engines (or browsers) were disallowed, instead of being sneaky and trying to fake error messages, degrading user experiences, and the like.
Further, it could be argued that dynamic code execution, whether through an app downloading additional modules on the file system with the executable bit set, or in memory, with the mmap(PROT_EXEC) syscall opens up potential avenues for abuse, and alternative browsers are an unfortunate collateral damage in such a policy.
Regardless, no action can be justified because another entity is also doing it; it only serves to cheapen the discourse.
Sure, but one week it's a first run screen recommending Edge, the next it's pop ups when visiting Firefox download page from Edge, the next it's a notification icon about "Microsoft recommended" settings, then it's a notice before running the installer, etc. There is no rhyme or reason besides their business interest and no timeline besides "let's boil this frog"
> Not allowing alternative browsers on their most successful platform: iOS
The huge difference is that this is the blanket application of a rule which has reasonable justifications. You can certainly criticise Apple for being a control-freak company, but that's not exactly a new trait.
And it's not Apple leveraging one monopoly (they don't have) into trying to take over an other domain as a new entrant. iOS started from the position of being completely locked down.
Quite different from the events of, say, US v. Microsoft Corp, which Microsoft seem to assume is not relevant anymore.
> - EU forced Apple to use USB-C like everybody else
Which was almost certainly on Apple's timeline anyway, though we'll never know for sure.
> - EU is forcing Apple to allow side loading of apps
> Which was almost certainly on Apple's timeline anyway, though we'll never know for sure.
They released USB-C macbooks in 2015, 8 years ago. Clearly they had no intention of moving to USB-C on iPhones, prior to the EU ruling. The extra few years selling cables so that you can plug your brand new Apple laptop in to your brand new Apple phone was probably a fun little profit exercise, if not comically anti-consumer/anti-environment.
> They released USB-C macbooks in 2015, 8 years ago. Clearly they had no intention of moving to USB-C on iPhones, prior to the EU ruling.
Utter nonsense, which completely ignores the historical and third-party background: the replacement of the dock connector by Lightning was a huge shift as it was very common for devices to have built-in dock connectors which became useless pins overnight (there were literally cars with dock connectors). As necessary as the transition was in the long run, it basically made apple swear to keep lightning alive for at least as long as the DC was.
And there is a clear counter-example: they've been slowly inching support in from the devices least likely to use hard-set connectors: first the 3rd gen ipad pro in 2018, then the 10th gen ipad in 2020, 6th gen mini in 2021, 5th gen Air in 2022.
> The extra few years selling cables so that you can plug your brand new Apple laptop in to your brand new Apple phone was probably a fun little profit exercise
More nonsense, apple literally doesn't want you to plug one into the other, they've been stripping wired phone-related features from macos as fast as they could be bothered to, moving them to either wireless (airdrop) or cloud.
> if not comically anti-consumer/anti-environment.
Yes indeed, the anti-consumer and anti-environment move of letting users upgrading from one iphone to the next not have to replace all their cables.
> And it's not Apple leveraging one monopoly (they don't have) into trying to take over an other domain as a new entrant. iOS started from the position of being completely locked down.
Apple is absolutely trying to leverage their OS in order to drive usage in other markets. One big example of this is Apple Maps, which is being used as a default on iOS no matter if you like it or not. Both "Contacts" and "Find My" uses Apple Maps as the only option for starting navigating to another address, and if the application is not installed, but Google Maps or any other app, they still ask you to install Apple Maps instead of doing what everyone else in the ecosystem is doing, which is to ask which navigation app to use.
> Which was almost certainly on Apple's timeline anyway, though we'll never know for sure.
Yes, absolutely. The manufacturer who almost never use standard connectors were gonna start using standard connectors suddenly, no because regulation forced them to, but because that was in their timeline anyways...
> The manufacturer who almost never use standard connectors
Except for all the times they do?
> were gonna start using standard connectors suddenly, no because regulation forced them to, but because that was in their timeline anyways...
Yes? Or are you saying regulations forced them to use USB-C on macbooks, to the exception of every other port including the beloved but non-standard magsafe?
Or that regulations forced them to add type C to the ipad pro in 2018? The ipad in 2020? The ipad mini in 2021? The ipad air in 2022?
Hell, back in 1998 they released the iMac with essentially only USB support. Was that also regulations forcing them?
Not allowing alternative browsers on their most successful platform: iOS
also:
- EU forced Apple to use USB-C like everybody else
- EU is forcing Apple to allow side loading of apps
Apple is one of the worst offenders ever when it's about vendor lock in