Exploratory spaceflight puts scientific ideas, scientific thinking, and scientific vocabulary in the public eye. It elevates the general level of intellectual inquiry. The idea that we've now understood something never grasped by anyone who ever lived before—that exhilaration, especially intense for the scientists involved, but perceptible to nearly everyone—propagates through the society, bounces off walls, and comes back at us. It encourages us to address problems in other fields that have also never before been solved. It increases the general sense of optimism in the society. It gives currency to critical thinking of the sort urgently needed if we are to solve hitherto intractable social issues. It helps stimulate a new generation of scientists. The more science in the media-especially if methods are described, as well as conclusions and implications-the healthier, I believe, the society is. People everywhere hunger to understand.
This is a technology demonstrator so it makes sense to start with just a drop but looking at the size of the launch vehicle and the parameters tested here, seems like the progress is coming on slow as the article mentions this was first tested in 2016.
I am not very familiar with rockets, so this might be out of ignorance but wouldn't the plane like characteristics of this TD make it hard to use for actual launch rockets as they travel quite a bit up and having the winged body might add extra overhead compared to a cylindrical stage.
Winged body is supposed to be second stage, sitting vertically on the rocket which lifts the whole rocket. Winged body cross section is almost circular that should match the lifting rocket, reducing the drag considerably.
This winged RLV, vertical landing launchers etc. are research programs that are generally under funded low priority programs. With the launch of India's human spaceflight program, RLV went even further down or priority list. I don't expect anything to come out of this in this decade, until after HSP program launches.
> I don't expect anything to come out of this in this decade, until after HSP program launches.
From a commercial perspective, wouldn't putting more money into heavy launch vehicles and reusability make more sense? Russia's space business will take a hit with the sanctions and that leaves the market open for a price competitive provider other than SpaceX?
ISRO has plans for heavy lifter with reusability, latest iteration of design named ULV. That is waiting on completion of semi-cryo engine they are developing (SCE-200), which is supposed to by complete by early 2010s, but got delayed. With no further updates on the status of SCE-200 after the launch of HSP. With ISRO limited funding and personnel, RLV and ULV took back stage after HSP program went into high gear.
> Russia's space business will take a hit with the sanctions and that leaves the market open for a price competitive provider other than SpaceX?
Surely, that also leaves the market open for an alternative to SpaceX for putting people into space? But yes, reusable launch vehicles should be a high priority.
As an Indian, I'm proud of what ISRO does. With the constraints given to them, (financial, political, social) it's a marvel they're still able to deliver results as often as they do.
As an Indian taxpayer I'm frustrated that I effectively cannot control how my money is used.
The central government spent $2 B on the Central Vista project, which is a wholly unnecessary construction project for our 550 MPs to feel better about themselves. Incidentally, this is the same as the entire annual budget allocated to ISRO, which benefits hundreds of millions of Indians and no doubt has an effect of all of us.
I would much rather they double ISROs budget and let MPs work in the perfectly adequate building they already had.
Why India should continue to invest in space technology?
Odisha cyclone in 1999: 10,000 dead.
Odisha cyclone of similar intensity in 2019: < 50 dead because ISRO was better equipped to track the cyclone path giving enough time for Govt to evacuate people to safety.
Ignore the ignorant including "liberal", "progressive" publications like NYT which publish racist cartoons on Indian space program.
The entire cartoon uses exaggerated stereotypes to make a point. If you think the depiction of the snobbish elite is okay, you're just falling into the "it's only racism if I don't like it" nonsense.
I don't think the cartoon is racist or offensive. I was trying to explain why some people found it distasteful. And stereotyping someone as elite is surely not the same thing as stereotyping someone as poor?
To add some nuance, I think the cartoon goes both ways, but unintentionally managed to offend Indian sensibilities by portraying them that way.
I think one way to look at it is... The underdog Indians managing to rub shoulders with the likes of NASA and ESA at a fraction of the latter's budget, which isn't wrong. ISRO's missions are typically about two orders of magnitude cheaper than NASA's, while still being very productive.
Somehow threads about India just devolve into ridiculous mudslinging like no other. White people clinging to tired old stereotypes. Indians are half to blame too, being over-sensitive and oddly conservative.
> Somehow threads about India just devolve into ridiculous mudslinging like no other. White people clinging to tired old stereotypes. Indians are half to blame too, being over-sensitive and oddly conservative.
There is an additional factor. Anglophone internet tends to be dominated by Americans. So, discussions about say Denmark don't get too heated because there aren't too many Danes participating.
>>> I think one way to look at it is... The underdog Indians managing to rub shoulders with the likes of NASA and ESA at a fraction of the latter's budget,
How are you getting this through the cartoon? All the cartoon shows is a poor asking for permission to get into an elite club
When Pakistan successfully became a nuclear capable nation in 2000s, Indians had the same reactions - to laugh at their stupidity of misplaced priorities.
The cartoon is trying to make an invalid point and insult India with their joke, that is how it became racist. It did not become racist by the idea of painting a set of people with broad brush.
The cartoon shows an unwelcome 'Indian' is knocking the door of super powers to be let in the elite club room amusing those inside it. If this is the case it is a huge discouragement for India because no matter what we do, even without any cheap superficial attempt to impress other countries, we will be mocked at with backdrop of embarrassing history that is no longer true and widespread as they make it seem to drive home the point with. This callousness is what makes NYT
racist.
Is it not racist to think India is hungry and desperate for power recognition, show off and then being complacent after like the people inside the room?
The subsequent money we get from West to deploy their payloads through the same advanced missions was also improving our poverty and cheaper for them .
Apart from mere recognition of a fact of our achievement, we know we have other problems we are famous for and funded by International bodies, including West themselves. So what makes NYT want to rub the salt into the wound in as if we forgot, at a time of celebration? Where else is it coming from, if not from the place of disdain onto this other nation?
You have to have some special kind of psychopathy to make fun of other country's poverty when they do know that the space missions are conducted after calculating all the costs and SWOT analysis taking into account of such poverty. Or do you think we are not intelligent enough for that?
It is this contemptuousness that I call NYT racist, not the one you elaborated upon.
Please stop this spreading this non-sensical misinformation.
The cartoon shows two formal dressed westerners in elite space club room startled by one uneducated man knocking with a dhoti and starving sleepy cow he catches by a rope just like village people used to do strolling on the streets of the past.
Is this the research you do to depict our Indian scientists and leaders or is it the idea that elitist differentiation of class, wealth and societal backwardness was to be shown here?
Besides, nowhere on the article it mentions that they have done their homework based on this story. Cows were not used. Open Bullock carts were used. Do you think putting a bullock cart in a cartoon would have been more difficult task to achieve than putting a Chandrayan on Moon? But no, you just have to stick to stereotype and squeeze out a rational meaning from it.
Give me a good citation and accuse me of throwing the racism card around.
You are mistaken it's not a lazy stereotype, the cartoonist has done his/her research. India has literally used cows for testing its initial satellites.
I’m sure that India used its own observation satellites to predict weather patterns and storms but western weather observation satellites monitor the whole Earth and share the information. Not every country should (or can) have its own national weather satellite installation.
Building a capability to predict weather patterns, implies, development of a slew of technologies, building an infrastructure to produce engineers and scientists, leasing out of those technologies to startups and other engineering enterprises to make better use of them.
The predictions made by your (US) meteorological department were wrong. Many would have died if we relied on you. Our meteorological department does better when it comes to local weather.
On a separate note, it honestly sucks how HN has legitimately gone to shit. A lot of old timers are basically boiled frogs and don't realize how alienated most other techies are by HN.
@Dang, ik I've harped about this a thousand times (and I myself have contributed) but y'all legitimately need to fix the toxicity on this board. Lots of early career techies don't want to be associated or go
on HN. I've heard this sentiment across the board from early career interns and friends of mine at Cal, MIT, UIUC, UMich, UW, IIT D/K/M, and Harvard - all feeder programs to YC
People will still apply to YC of course, but the brand has been increasingly tainted. I know for a fact in India Sequoia Surge gets the pick of the litter over YC.
I agree with the gist of the other posters (even if they have over-reacted): most of your comments reek of paternalism, Western exceptionalism, hypocrisy, holier-than-thou sanctimony, and clinging to stereotypes about Indians and having a grossly mis-informed view of Indians and India.
Your comment was the initial one, and it was not in good faith at all, ergo the cascade of defensive comments from Indians (whose sentiments I understand).
Whether what you said is racist or not is debatable, but stereotypical? Definitely. If you want to criticise India, there are many, many other things to say (such as its lengthy and backwards bureaucracy) without attacking ISRO of all things and subsequently linking it to rape (???).
Fact of the matter is that through ISRO and its projects, education is made more important for boys and girls alike, money is funnelled into research and education, and more education means a more civilised populace.
So you think they possibly saved 9950 lives, yet a vastly greater number live in poverty and a huge proportion of them are children with no access to healthcare and education, many of them begging in the streets. But yes let's give India a round of applause for finding a minor benefit to their $2bn spending on space exploration (also ignoring the fact that they are not really achieving new science that is not or could not be done by more developed nations).
What? There are literally hundreds of other uses of our space program which if we hadn't developed independently, we would be paying exorbitant prices to other nations for the same. Launching rockets costs us literally 10x lower cost than other nations. This thing doesn't benefit Indians only but other nations as well.
Are the education and healthcare systems you mentioned an indication of the American society where the average person cannot afford healthcare, and where children are unsure of their gender identity and personal identity? If this is the case, my friend, you have failed miserably.
However, despite challenges such as limited food and inadequate school infrastructure, the people in question have access to affordable healthcare and education, without the added burden of student loans. Moreover, they complete their schooling with minimal anxiety and confusion over trivial matters.
Congratulations , and I am sure this is just a beginning .
What I find even more interesting is "According to ISRO the configuration of RLV-TD is similar to that of an aircraft and combines the complexity of both launch vehicles and aircraft.". Are there any challenges in going ahead with aircraft like landing which is so much different from Space-X landing of reusable rockets
I can also highly recommend reading: Touching Lives: The Little Known Triumphs of the Indian Space Programme, by SK Das (2007).
Excerpt:
Touching Lives is not merely a chronicle of the community outreach of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO). It is the story of journeys to far corners of India meeting people whose lives have been transformed by technology.
"It's baffling to me that India is putting so much money into being part of the next space race, when they still have such vast and prominent problems on the ground.
You could say that for many countries, but there is a difference in degree IMO."
Said every racist and ignorant ever. You think we don't have people who make cost benefit analysis before investing in such projects? We don't have parliament and budget sessions?
The payloads we deploy immensely help us socially and technologically advance. Do you know that?
Ed tech itself got eGyanKosh, Swayam, NPTEL, private teachings on govt. platforms so cheap that by next year about a quarter million adults will be uplifted out of poverty. That funding is given to satellites launched by ISRO. Did you know that?
Had it not been for ISRO, we wouldn't have had larger outreach of instant cash transfers and payments. Did you know that?
Had it not been for ISRO we wouldn't be able to fight societal superstitions or bring in public health education drives let alone dumb down power play of society by caste and gender. Do you know that?
That also includes targeted courses for farmers about endemic genetic problems, weather, pests to Artists about film-making. Did you know that?
Even the money we get to deploy other western country's payloads makes people lift out of poverties in a single digit of percentage of populations in a city for every year! Do you know that?
But no. A random pompous clueless stranger on the internet comes to an sweet intelligent discussion site and declares he is baffled and India should now hold a inter-ministerial meeting to stop space projects.
These people have been everywhere from NYTIMES cartoonists to HN unfortunately. I don't understand how should one ban from this site either.
You are not contributing to the intended discussion of this site relating to the link posted, but yourself. You just want to throw around how baffled you are and sleep back in your mother's basement.
You posted well over a dozen flamewar comments to this thread and broke the site guidelines egregiously. We ban accounts that do that. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and avoid this kind of thing in the future—regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are—we'd appreciate it.
I understand how provocative nationalistic flamebait can be, but that's a reason to take a step back and consciously not take the bait. Otherwise we end up in a downward spiral, as happened here.
I completely support India’s decision to develop a space program, and I’m a huge fan of the achievements of ISRO, it’s contribution to Indian society and the advances it’s made on a very constrained budget. The fact is though that any science or technology programme must be prepared to justify its existence and contribution to society. I’m right behind you in supporting that case, but it is entirely reasonable for that case to be questioned.
The US space programme has been questioned in almost exactly the same terms since its inception, without any hint of a racist motive. If it’s reasonable to expect NASA to justify its existence on a cost benefit basis, I think it’s reasonable to question any space programme on that basis. I don't think it’s reasonable to infer racism in this case when there was no specifically racist content in the comment.
If we’re going to convert skeptics into supporters, the way to do that is respectful reasoned argument, not impugning their motives for even asking the question.
You don't question an answer-to-the-same-question without bothering to read the said answer first, right?
That is what is happening with @Zurrrrr guy. In fact, he is not questioning. He is just implying inefficiency and opinionating on inferior problem solving skills of India on things he won't cite his research on. That is what makes it racist.
When US was cross questioned about cost benefit analysis and comparative budge analysis, it was promptly done so by NGOs and UN backing up with how that strategy is flawed. But US was hell bent on prestige of being first in space and that reply was apparent and open to criticism.
There was no deeper prodding/questioning into the specifics or support of arguments by @Zurrrrr here. There was just a quick judgmental attitude which made me claim prejudice in him. I urge you read his comment again.
Making someone specifically racist comment is not the bar to judge. Why would someone educated make it so blatant in 2023? Racists will always incorporate euphemisms and innuendos among many other tools to crystallize their thought of racism.
Yeah reading his other comments you have a point. How stopping the space programme would help solve ‘rape culture’ isn’t exactly obvious to me. Are there any countries that solved a sociological problem by not having a space programme? Seems daft, and quite possibly maliciously so.
Here is an interesting letter by Ernst Stuhlinger, then an associate director of science at NASA's MSFC, written to a nun in the 1970s. He explains the crucial role of space exploration in a country's growth. This topic sparked some engaging conversations on HN in 2012 and 2015:
When I see people make comments like that, I always wonder if they've done the maths of dividing the cost of whatever programme by the number of people in the country. Given India's population, it probably wouldn't amount to much per person, even if you could magically give it out.
It's 1.9 billion USD divided by 1.4 billion people or 1.35 dollars per person.
The international poverty line is $2.15 per day. The GDP per capita in India is $2.2k which means the program costs the average Indian 0.06% of their wages or less than a day at the poverty line and this doesn't even account for progressive taxation where mostly middle class and above Indians pay the taxes that fund the space program.
I’m not going to argue to prove what is ignorant or not. But, I just want to point out the flaw in your thinking and hope that you would open your mind enough to think about it.
By your argument, if India should stop investing in science and having its citizens explore space, and only focus on lifting people out of poverty or empower women, I’d love your take on the USA, the single biggest economy in the world, the mightiest superpower which could solve the problems of 1. People dying because of the healthcare system, or the school kids dying because of lack of gun control, or those living homeless in just a flick of its policy?
Should the USA stop NASA for a couple of years until those problems are fixed?
Should the USA stop all its road building projects until all its issues are solved?
India, poor as it may be, has brought some wonders into the world of science, particularly space missions, at times launching missions that achieve similar results with orders of magnitude lower costs with truly innovative ways. Please don’t categorise people, science and innovation based on where it comes from.
People want to keep drawing comparisons to the US, which obviously has a ton of issues, (and FWIW I'm not even from the US), but I absolutey think those issues should be addressed as a priorty as well. But as I said originally, there is a difference in degree between the extent and type of problems facing the two countries, and dare I say one set is more severe than the other.
> India, poor as it may be, has brought some wonders into the world of science, particularly space missions, at times launching missions that achieve similar results with orders of magnitude lower costs with truly innovative ways.
I would never doubt that or claim otherwise.
> Please don’t categorise people, science and innovation based on where it comes from.
What comment did I make that indicates that is what I am doing? I don't, and would not do that.
These kind of higher purpose establishments empowers women. These kind of places are magnet for academic oriented women science students - provides them stable, safe, intellectual environment. There are many such government research establishments from Biotechnology to Astrophysics to Defence techs.
Beyond Rocket Boys, The Inspiring Rocket Women Of India's Space History
The parent comment is implying that if every person donates anything on their personal capacity, this project would have been funded and executed easily. He is asking you to not bother with anything more than donations alone, had you been Indian.
But here you are bothering about India's perverse fixation about competing with West. Heck, If West violated every law there is and blatantly copied to advance its interests and no one else, India doesn't have money to fight in ICJ courts or otherwise. Why are you making your ignorance so apparent for no one to sympathize with you?
"to compete with superpowers (i.e. for clout),..."
Don't you understand that we are not here for show off and compete? We are competing against superpowers called poverty and societal backwardness, security of merchant navy, and all, not WEST. West is our ally and vice versa.
In fact, I have given multiple examples like Ed-Tech platforms, internet penetration for MSME, and all, but you won't listen only to come back to square one - superficial effort against superpowers. If this is not judgmental, then what is it? If this is not racist, then what is it?
The project reports are required to detail the outline the intended outcomes. Now another round is made for such outcomes to be compare at state and national level. Multiple permissions and meeetings are done here about this. In between all of these, consultants from McKinsey and BCG are brought in along with experts to assess the practicality of claims. This is not enough for you? Oh, wait. you are ignorant, how would you know?
"There is no reason for you to have taken my comment so personally..."
Why not? You say Indians are inefficient and not intelligent enough to have their own problems solved. That is racist. It doesn't matter if you talk about a country like India or India itself. You are racist to talk about a country like India then, that is all. It still makes you racist is what I want to say.
"I made a point and stated an opinion." - YOU WERE QUICKLY JUDGEMENTAL. Always ask and then say. At least say by framing it is a question to get the benefit of doubt.
A closed mind cannot be filled. Nor is an open one with a holes under. So please stop suggesting me and start listening.
The OP has a stretch of whole bunch of comments where they are simply confidently wrong but never admit it. Don't bother, it's not worth your time, just flag and move on otherwise you'll end up in 10 level deep comment threads that go nowhere.
Well what exactly are you implying sitting on the other side of the earth to suggest that Indian could have done better elsewhere? Like We Indians never have had that thought crossed our mind? We are incapable of running cost-benefit analysis and SWOT analysis? Yours is the novel idea that we should have paid heed to and should now be regretting wasting millions of dollar?
What are you implying or what are you trying to say if not my 'hearing' then?
You came out swinging with bs accusations of racism, and tons of insults, clearly breaking the HN guidelines numerous times because of your own asinine assumptions.
Why should I bother to put in effort to converse with you, when you are going out of your way to misconstrue and insult, and coming from a place of extreme defensiveness and patriotism?
If you had not tainted this entire thread, I would have loved to have a productive discussion, and if I'm wrong be corrected and learn something.
But how is that possible now after your tirades and insults? As you even said you took what I said emotional and became very heated. Worst case, I might be ignorant, but I'm not racist or hateful against people of any race or country, and you said an awful lot of crappy things, much worse than anything I've said.
" If women are empowered, lifted up and don't have to live in fear, that tends to result in huge gains for an economy."
And what makes you think we don't do that already? Did you read monthly public health outcomes and human rights outcomes research either by third party or government ministers?
Did you see no programs and collaborative efforts by NGOs and Government?
Did you see no improvements in critiqued yearly and monthly reports of famous research journals like 'Economics and Political Weekly' and Ministry of Women and Child Development, Ministry of Health and family welfare, etc?
What is your picture on comparative analysis of rape "endemic" across other factors normalized, like by country, by per capita, by development index, by any rank for that matter?
Well, my apologies. I became testy and had to blow off the steam. I felt like exploding.
I can't be fighting a fellow bully and simultaneously be a student participating in group discussions in classroom when it comes to arseholes like the above.
This one was the first or maybe second from my side since 2014. You see, I couldn't have imagined this rude surprise of racism at HN. It felt so personal, even though there is no abnormal attachment to my country, I felt I had to give him a good earfull.
Not to mention the skills and industrial development that comes with these mega projects. That sort of stimulation benefits other industries for generat.
The cost effectiveness of these kind of programs is really interesting. It is normal to assume that space is super difficult and this plays into the geeky pride we all have. It is literally rocket science! And then we all get depressed when they go a little over budget or are late. We compare the program to an idealised view of excellence that only exists in our heads. But compared to other human endeavours science and engineering is unreasonably effective. It can break through the mess of human conflict and pettiness that holds us back. It is a great mechanism for getting people to work together for a common cause and we desperately need that. The mission objective is secondary to that.
I agree with your rational conclusion, India should continue to invest in science, technology and space. It's the way to go, more players in space the better.
That said, the sentiment isn't unique to India, and NASA is questioned the same since forever. "Will not tolerate" isn't something that one should feel or write against an opinion, even when presented in a sarcastic way. Make fun of it, argue against it, or ignore it, after all India isn't going to stop its space program because someone in NYT published a cartoon.
US wants to go back to the moon to put the first woman and PoC on it lol. Talk about spending billions of dollars for a token image.
Somehow when Murica does it we should all cheer for it as a great ray of hope for all humanity. Anyone else, there's a long line of "umm, actually..." guys. They just can't accept that a non communist, democratic country can compete with them
... meanwhile there are people shitting on the streets of San Francisco (seen with my own eyes), and people OD-ing (as in dying from drugs) on the streets of San Francisco, and homeless people camped on the sidewalks by the 1000s in cities like San Francisco and LA.
And yet nobody bats an eye when America "wastes" money on going back to the moon.
People have been complaining about NASA for decades.In The decade of the apollo missions many people in the civil rights movement were against spending 20b to send someone to the moon and today those same arguments still stand and many people still voice them. Maybe your circle is to small and you haven’t been exposed to diverse opinions.
Aside from the obvious fact that nations can spend money on multiple objectives at the same time, the real un-intelligence comes from suggesting that the people of the country actively involved in various civil programs are somehow incapable of taking care of their problems. Are you insinuating that they are perhaps inferior and need rescuing? Because India has seen how that goes very personally before.
Yes, it is racist. The suggesting you said was without a backup of resources and citations to provide any chance for a writer to educate himself and as well as educating readers. What exactly are these more important problems? And what subset of these problems are we neglecting?
You think our civil service officers don't do cost benefit analysis? You think we don't have Finance commission to develop an algorithm and spread budgets accordingly?
Racism is looking at us like we are dorks by race. To think that the above commentor has posed this novel question but not Indians only to do inefficient decision is racist and ignorance!
I read Germany making a U turn with respect to Nuclear and fossil fuels. Everybody gives deep arguments as if I am sitting in the policy think tank. That is why I've come to HN.
I see Russia investing in war, everybody gives deep arguments I feel like I am in a war room. That is why I've come to HN
I read Australia investing in Hydrogen, Plutonium, Uranium, etc. I feel hope in the my children and a bit of excitement. That is why I've come to HN.
I see India investing in space, nobody writes the how and why behind their "suggestions".
Nobody quotes budget session of parliaments discussing this at length. Apparently it is enough to "suggest a country to do something" and not be called out for racism quoting nothing be it citations or build up logic behind the suggestions.
As far as my rant, you are falling for tu-Quoque fallacy. At least my censure is acting like a reminder to be civil and focused to the purpose of this site, and has only conjured in reaction rather than prophylaxis or presumptuous preemptive warning. What did the racist OP's comment serve, except for my arse to heat up?
"and yet you yourself contribute nothing but pejorative."
What? I contribute articles and comments from 2014 and this articles is also my contribution. I was hoping at least 10 people would dwell upon this.
I didn't contribute to the discussion? My bad. I apologize. But this doesn't take away my eligibility to slap idiots right on their heads when they try to contaminate a space I love. I need not get a lifetime moderator license for that, certainly not on my own contribution.
So would you mind explaining what actually you want to say?
I honestly agree with everything you have said. I have constantly seen self-proclaimed "intelligent" arguments which basically make the same assumptions you have stated and then have the gall of saying they aren't racist. I daresay these individuals need to grow up and get out of their colonial mindset.
India's poverty is in an entirely different category to that of the US or other developed nations. Once sewage isn't in the streets, come back to me about starting a space program.
Nationalistic flamewar will get you banned here, as will other kinds of flamewar. We've had to warn you about this more than once before. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
Apparently, our civil service officers and think tanks shouldn't create customized solutions to the unique problems and prerequisites we face but should ensure to come back and stand with an appointment in front of a house of a random unqualified internet stranger to meet and discuss about starting a space program.
What else? Should we be coming again and again to West because we don't have problem solving skills or at the least, a mind of our own, that we should ask elites like you?
Sewage isn't in the streets? Will you land down in my country giving free consultation if I show you cities that make you envy to be too costly to purchase a square feet of land?
The most intelligent suggestion you could come up with is to drop everything in our hands and only make sewages disappear. Till then we won't even bath or eat. How about that?
Comments like this aren't allowed here regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. Please don't post like this again. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
I already banned that other user. That doesn't change the fact that you broke the site guidelines extremely badly. I didn't ban you for this because I didn't see a pattern of it in your comment history and because we hadn't warned you before. But please don't do this again.
Nationalistic flamewar is particularly hellish. HN has users all over the world and from all different backgrounds. People here need to constrain such passions and remain respectful.
It is a low effort comment based solely on the country. Whether or not that is racism seems like semantics. And then it turns the argument into an American culture war rather than actually considering the issues involved.
People particularly bring the same dumb boring argument "Why do X when you can do Y ?" when India tries to accomplish something other than trying to bring it's citizens above poverty.
It's like commenting why is NASA sending a probe to outer space instead of providing free healthcare for all in USA. You don't see this comment on every NASA achievement post do you ? Why should it be any different than when ISRO achieves something.
> Instead, we have people jumping through hoops to deny things, and trying to provide links to disingenuously claim certain issues are not as serious as they are, or to try and falsely equivocate them to other countries like the US.
On a post about a reusable launch vehicle, you posted a irrelvant comment about how rape was endemic in India. People refuted your assertion with facts and figures.
> It's funny to see the sheer amount of people hurling insults at me, based on incorrect assumptions
So, you are not going to acknowledge your incorrect assumptions?
> There is nothing intelligent about choosing to take offense at a neutral statement, then resort to distractions and untruths, and to attempt to censor people from a discussion.
Your statement was not even remotely neutral. Please point out these untruths.
> I have no time for patriotism or tribalism. While I'm aware we don't live in a single global society, that's what I believe our ideal should be (A kind of Star Trek society), and that's what I want to work towards. Petty tribalism is very much at odds with that.
On a cost basis, India's space program is probably the most efficient in the world. So, let's give up the petty tribalism, shut down all the other space programs and redirect all that funding to ISRO. That would be the best way towards a Star Trek future.
> In any case, if my sentiment was wrong, then I would have appreciated an informative, challenging and productive discussion
And I would have appreciated an informed and well thought out comment instead of a puerile low effort one. Yet here we are.
Every post you've made here is so clealry stemming from emotion and the need to be defensive. Maybe put that aside and actually deal with facts and figures, and not perceived slights.
> People refuted your assertion with facts and figures.
No, they didn't. And I could provide a lot more links and provide a much mroe compelling argument, but despite your beliefs, I'm not trying to make India look bad and have nothing against India. Besides, my posts would just get mass downvoted no matter their credibility.
> So, you are not going to acknowledge your incorrect assumptions?
I made none, rather it's you and others making incorrect assumptions and jumpting to be defensive.
> Your statement was not even remotely neutral. Please point out these untruths.
And why would I bother to engage you in actual debate when you're being so clearly biased and emotional thorughout the thread?
> So, let's give up the petty tribalism, shut down all the other space programs and redirect all that funding to ISRO.
I don't really agree with that, but I am definitely in support or a global combined space program instead of wasted resources.
> And I would have appreciated an informed and well thought out comment instead of a puerile low effort one. Yet here we are.
That's ironic, given the low quality and guidelines violating nature of your posts. My initial comment could have led to productive discussion, but hurt feelings prevented that.
> Every post you've made here is so clealry stemming from emotion and the need to be defensive. Maybe put that aside and actually deal with facts and figures, and not perceived slights.
> And I could provide a lot more links and provide a much mroe compelling argument
Why didn't you do it in the first place? You refuse to put in any work into your comments, and then complain that people don't take you seriously.
> I'm not trying to make India look bad and have nothing against India
I don't think you are. I just think your worldview is informed by a hyperbolic narrative than actual facts.
> I made none, rather it's you and others making incorrect assumptions and jumpting to be defensive.
For the third time: You made a factually incorrect and entirely irrelevant comment about rape being endemic in India. You're dismissing people refuting your claim with easily found facts and figures as being defensive.
> And why would I bother to engage you in actual debate when you're being so clearly biased and emotional thorughout the thread?
So, no actual argument but just crying the victim?
> My initial comment could have led to productive discussion,
Your comment was:
> It's baffling to me that India is putting so much money into being part of the next space race, when they still have such vast and prominent problems on the ground.
Vague, dismissive and low effort. Predictably it did not lead to a good discussion.
No, and I don't need to be. It's obvious. As is the way you are distorting everything else in your reply here.
Besides, the irony and hypocrisy of you saying things like
> I just think your worldview is informed by a hyperbolic narrative than actual facts.
When you asked if I was a shrink for simply observing how (very obviously) your comments were coming from an emotional rather than a rational place.
It's clear you are not engaging in good faith but just being defensive, and I have no time for such one-sided discussions. In fact, all of your replies seem downright petty, like you're throwing rocks at me because you don't like what I said, rather than you're interested in having a civil debate.
I'm sure you'll reply again, however I have no interest in replying further, because it clearly isn't a good faith discussion interested in objective facts and truths - anything critical of India is just going to be dismissed, denied or whataboutismed - that's if my reply isn't just mass flagged out of spite to start with.
>I have no time for patriotism or tribalism. While I'm aware we don't live in a single global society, that's what I believe our ideal should be (A kind of Star Trek society), and that's what I want to work towards. Petty tribalism is very much at odds with that.
Tribalism has existed since day 1 of human civilization and it has shaped the world we live in today. Your ideal world is a bluff.
you don't ban people for their opinions in free democracies, how so ever absurd and outrageous they may be. Probably you come from a country where people are banned for their views and opinions. But that is not what a free society does.
No world leader is going to read any racist rant on internet and make decision out of it, so chill.
>that money could absolutely be spent better in other ways.
It can't. The amount of money allocated to the space program is insignificant and doesn't move the needle. There are diminishing returns to putting more and more money into the same things. By investing a little into every sector you diversity and pick up the low hanging fruit.
This kind of comment is the first one to show up like clockwork whenever a HN story comes up which doesn’t mention India and poor/corruption/hungry/religion in the same sentence.
True! I wonder if they do realise gun culture in USA, is worse than any of the so-called third world nations. India is the sixth largest economy of the world.
Agree. In 1969 while they were busy landing folks in moon, the civil rights movement and black panthers were fighting for equality and justice. My 2 cents.
I think you replied to the wrong comment. I specifically referenced the rape endemic, and I said the way it is being handled is deplorable and woefully inadequate. And it is.
Having a space program and specifically a launch vehicle that puts satellites in orbit for other countries brings in foreign exchange revenue. Having a reusable launch vehicle is an improvement on capabilities for competitive pricing. What's not to like here?
Jul 2022: "ISRO earns US$ 279 mn in foreign exchange"
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Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot