I'm Australian and this remark is lunatic-fringe hogwash. These governments are not firebombing domestic youtube-grade nonentities or anyone else, nor are they enabling it.
The notable corruption we saw recently was Scott Morrison making himself a secret minister of several portfolios, and for these and other sins the electorate severely rebuked his party at recent state and federal elections.
That is what democracy, not authoritarianism, looks like.
The folks you should be suspicious of are those spoonfeeding these garbage takes to the credulous.
There were people arrested for posts on Facebook during COVID lockdowns. We had police on the ground hassling every person in sight. Multiple friends of mine were fined for taking a momentary pause on their 1 hour of allotted outside time per day. Police were checking whether coffee cups were indeed full of liquid. We had statewide man hunts for people who sneezed in lifts that they were the only one in. Protests against the draconian measures were violently suppressed by the state government. It was one of the most important and impactful government decisions in the history of the country, affecting the lives of every person and dissenting political demonstration was banned.
The Federal government passed a law requiring a backdoor for all encrypted communication in the country and the press was completely silent. We ban drawn Japanese porn for some unknown reason while allowing real porn which unambiguously provides greater risk of harm. Prior to internet distribution of video games, many were simply banned for import on the whims of a parental advisory board. Australia is a nation obsessed with prohibition and there's nothing Australians love more than collective moral outrage followed by a cathartic wholesale ban.
I'm Australian and whenever I see valid criticism of the country on the internet I soon find an upset Australian replying. They never really refute the underlying point, they'll reply with a non-sequitur or talk about how it doesn't affect their lives. The reality is most Australians don't even feel the noose around their neck because they've never stepped out of line in any way. Most protections on liberty are for extreme and unusual circumstances, you don't notice their absence until it's too late. The vast majority of Chinese people trust their government, and believe the various restrictions on speech and liberty are in the best interests of the nation. Their curbs on liberty are too invasive of course, ours are necessary.
Lol, well that story is significantly different to a manhunt because someone sneezed in a lift.
It’s the story of someone who was sick and legally ordered to quarantine, breaking that quarantine which authorities then wanted to track down. He was spotted on CCTV in a lift.
You can argue the real story is ‘totalitarian’ too if you like, but that doesn’t make the original statement either false or at best a very misleading summary.
Multiple police were out looking for him for days, they appealed to the public for info about his whereabouts. His face and name were plastered all over national media. I live in a different state and this guy was all anyone could talk about. People were desperate for him to be caught. If you saw this man, you were supposed to call the emergency services.
For context, I have never seen a murderer or armed robbery command this level of attention.
I've got to be honest here mate, your point of view is skewed.
This guy was being g tracked down because he was a quarantine dodger during a time when everyone was trying hard to contain the virus so it didn't break out and kill people.
The only banned Japanese porn is the kiddy stuff, but even then the law is around any kiddy porn stuff, filmed, animated, drawn, or otherwise.
The backdooring of security was discussed at large in the media, and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't even attempted to be implemented. This particular point is quite shit and we all should be up in arms about it, but Joe Average tunes out when it gets any more technical than their Ladbrokes multi on the weekend.
> This guy was being g tracked down because he was a quarantine dodger during a time when everyone was trying hard to contain the virus so it didn't break out and kill people.
Are you capable of understanding nuance. Do you sincerely think my complaint is that a man was punished for breaking quarantine laws? My critique was of the sum total of the restrictions and the hysterical reaction of the public.
> The only banned Japanese porn is the kiddy stuff, but even then the law is around any kiddy porn stuff, filmed, animated, drawn, or otherwise.
Just simply false, all it requires is a google search [1]. The border force has blocked the import of any 18+ material from Japan. This ban probably affects less than a thousand Australians, but I included it to give people a taste of the Australian style of governance. Grant sweeping powers to enforcers and hope they don't abuse them.
> The backdooring of security was discussed at large in the media,
One particular bill in 2018 received attention, mostly from international media and orgs. This bill [1] passed last year and gave the AFP further ability to backdoor encryption as well as the power to modify your data and impersonate you. There were minor mentions prior to it being tabled. The day it was passed in parliament there wasn't an article about it on any major news provider. Most people are unaware this even happened.
> and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't even attempted to be implemented
Do you get much insight into what the AFP, ASIO and ASIS are working on usually? Yes, I'm sure that they make it public knowledge that they've implemented this. That wouldn't defeat the intended purpose at all. Can I clarify, they sought these powers just to have them they don't actually want to use them? And it's my viewpoint that's skewed?
He seems to have violated a quarantine order at a time when Covid was under control.
There are no countries in the world, including "bastions of freedom" that allow infectious public health risks to willfully violate quarantine,
BTW: one side-effect of the quarantine travel restrictions was that people overseas saw Australia as being in some sort of draconian lockdown, when, in fact, life was almost totally normal for most of the pandemic because of travel restrictions and qurantine (outside of Melbourne and parts of Sydney in 2021). And many Australians (especially those without overseas ties) assumed that life was "normal" for the rest of the world, when there was, in fact suffering and death, in addition to restrictions.
Yes, the man appeared to have violated the law. I guess my criticism that the Australian government is overly restrictive and the public are hysterical moral busybodies has been rendered void because there was a law in place that he violated.
My friend was unable to go and see her dying mother in France because the Federal government wouldn't allow her to leave the country. Her request to leave was initially rejected and took so long that her mother was dead by the time she was given permission. Now I heard many people have similar experiences because of the inability to find flights. I didn't realise the government forbidding you to leave was a completely normal experience worldwide.
If she had travelled and gotten covid while travelling she could've easily passed it on to vulnerable people she'd bumped into and caused the untimely deaths of other peoples' loved ones.
We ALL had to make sacrifices during the pandemic.
Hindsight shows we were wrong and distracted on the wrong thing. Society doesn't care about flu this year, and it's hitting just as hard as covid was. Yet, all I see is messaging on Covid still.
Considering that life was normal for most of the country, the virus was contained until vaccines arrived, and the economy was booming, someone violating quarantine was a big deal.
> statewide man hunts for people who sneezed in lifts that they were the only one in
This is why we can't have a reasoned discussion. Use of hyperbole to replace actual good reasons.
"statewide manhunt" is actually more like a missing persons notice.
"sneezing" is actually having COVID.
"in lifts that they were the only one in" is actually leaving mandated quarantine to go spread COVID amongst a non-vaccinated society desperately trying to stop exactly that.
This is a glorified missing person's notice for someone who was being a dick. At the time, not many people were moving about and many had not much to do so yeah, a lot of people may have seen this news item in some form. But it wasn't a statewide manhunt.
EDIT: and instead of reasoned response. A downvote.
The fact that you can't see such measures as being draconian is kinda the point of this thread. The way that the heavy handed nature of the Australian government approach seems normalized to your average Australian is precisely the normalization of authoritarianism being protested!
... Not sure where in my post I comment on authoritarianism. I was criticising an absurdly skewed take compared to the source provided.
But sure. Lets go into this.
Part 1. Authoritarianism.
I don't like it. I do see the Australian government getting worse with it. And there is very little I could do to stop it other than vote right wing nutters out of parliament.
Part 2. heavy handed approach to COVID
I agree with it - even in hindsight. Society had no vaccine. No RAT. Awkward PCR testing process with delays. No real defense. The ONLY thing that we could do was to halt the spread until we could get a vaccine. As demonstrated by "elevator sneeze man", you can't trust the populace at large not to spread it.
And there were fuckups. Apart from "elevator sneeze man", the airport quarantine bungle anyone? These fuckups should be investigated in their own right.
Right now, Australia has ~10% of the number of cases as the US. Which is fair because we're roughly 10% the population size and now we're vaccinated COVID has been allowed to roam.
Australia has ~1.5% of the number of COVID deaths as the US. Which is down to being vaccinated BEFORE we let COVID roam.
I like my parents. I like the parents of many of my friends. At least some of them would have died due to COVID if it had been let to run rampant before we got a vaccine.
Conclusion
So yeah, I was happy to live through the Melbourne lockdown. As traumatic as it was, it was better than the alternative.
But ScoMo should be friggin' nailed for his "multiple ministries" bullshit.
That has literally nothing at all to do with Melbourne.
And yes, some governments definitely show two faces when it comes to China vs what they do themselves.
I'm not sure why you've decided to be so angry, instead of realising our government was doing it's level best to try and get it right. eg Give 'em a break dude.
The analogy is very obvious, come on now. Melbourne's lockdowns were even worse and longer than Canadas.
Not all actions get a "Well shucks, better luck next time" second shot. The anger of myself and others is completely justified. Unless you would also say the same to the Chinese at the moment?
To me the instincts of our leaders in high stress unique situations are critically important. The actions taken by Dan Andrews are disqualifying from leadership in my book. I'm not saying he's a bad guy in his personal life or anything like that, but not fit for office. His actions are by far the grossest breach of human rights in Australia in the last 50 years and will not be forgotten.
k. What's (in hindsight) the right approach that _should_ have been taken, that likely would have worked out better in important measures?
By "important measures" I'm meaning things like "number of deaths", "number of COVID infected", but also things like "people who kept their jobs" (etc).
Note that I'm not arguing here, I'm genuinely asking. My impression is that we (in Melbourne) "did ok" as we had low numbers of deaths/infections, and the government support package(s) seemed to have worked for a lot of people. With some notable exceptions (eg artists), which I really don't think should have been excluded from support. :/
You can't seriously be saying this is just a right-wing problem. Dan Andrews literally shutdown playgrounds to stop children playing (sorry "their parents congregating").
A brutal streak of authoritarianism runs deep on both sides of Australian politics. They only get angry about who gets to hold the whip.
Isn't that what we are doing now? Have you seen rates of uptake on boosters?
Lockdowns were a shocking totalitarian action I never thought I would live to see in my own country. But of course many can only see/say that when looking at China, even though what is happening there is just a more extreme mirror of our own crimes against humanity.
More people were dying from COVID in June and July in Melbourne than at any point during the pandemic. Case numbers look low because nobody even bothers getting the PCR anymore unless they work in health.
The public can't be trusted to do the right thing. Many people aren't getting additional doses of the vaccine so their immunity has weakened. Why are we not in lockdown right now? It's literally costing lives as we speak.
Yep, exactly. Lockdowns can only have been justified if we are willing to take the same action going forward under similar conditions and risk. If we aren't, then they were gross overreach of government powers.
For the record, I am not against the idea that the government would provide some financial support for people so they could have stayed at home etc. But the forced closure of the whole society including and especially the banning of seeing other people was unbelievably totalitarian and indefensible.
Have a look at "freedom-loving" red states like Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Mississippi, Georgia, Arkansas and Alabama. All seem to be quite "draconian" when it comes to quarantine
That eliminates the US. Maybe there's some other country that doesn't have "draconian" quarantine measures?
I'm genuinely confused by your point. Are you saying that because other countries have quarantine restrictions, that makes their pandemic approach equivalently restrictive as Australia was? Victoria spent over 250 days in lockdown between March 2020 and October 2021. We had curfews at 6pm for weeks and were allowed out of the house for 1 hour a day and not beyond 5km of our houses. Are you seriously asserting that if the US enacted these restrictions, I would be on here professing that these were the pinnacle of freedom?
What I will remark is that US citizens have certain constitutional protections which we do not that in theory inhibit their government's ability to enact restrictions like these i.e. "freedom of movement".
We were talking about the "lift sneeze man" violating quarantine, and whether it was "draconian" or not for the authorities to pursue him. I pointed out, by way of the US, that authorities pursuing someone who violated a quarantine order is not uniquely Australian nor particularly draconian.
We were not discussing the merits, or lack thereof, of lockdowns. Let's not shift the goalposts. But FYI: Here's a list of lockdowns in response to Covid worldwide, including the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns
6pm curfew? Did Sydney do that? Melbourne didn't. The rest seems about right.
But having seen what Italy was going through - lockdowns with COVID still spreading and hospitals overloaded with the dying. I didn't want that for us.
The "freedom of COVID movement" people were cursed many times - they kept the lockdown running for longer because they couldn't see beyond themselves. They were the cause of the curfews because they tried to use cover of darkness.
>These governments are not firebombing domestic youtube-grade nonentities or anyone else, nor are they enabling it.
We don't know that one way or another. We just know he has pissed off someone enough to firebomb his house. Unless he's pissing people off in private, the only people he seems to piss off are those that are involved in corruption. The vast majority of times a journalist is murdered or targeted, it is relation to their reporting. But sure, that is all speculation.
What isn't speculation is the wide array of shady actions taken before the firebombing. Also some of the stuff that happened during covid was just insane to see.
Are we talking about friendlyjordies here? He most certainly has pissed people off. I wouldn't put it past mafia types to have a go at him after his relentless mockery of Barilaro. Not to suggest he's connected, just the whole Italian thing.
Not to take away from your point though. I too feel that our government, both state and federal, goes unchecked. Just that conspiracies about firebombing are hardly evidence. Instead consider the refusal to implement a federal ICAC or the NSW liberals overthrowing their own and cherry picking candidates.
You won't see it until you leave that place.
The firebombing of Shanks-Markovina should be a wake up call about the power of deeply entrenched corrupt and anti-democratic bodies. The existence of the private criminal investigation into Shanks by interest groups should leave one fearful on the path being followed there.
The Australian economy exists as source of raw materials for the world, a laundromat for wealth via gambling, and a ponzi around housing to enrich the ruling class. Any political force that challenges these pillars is not allowed to be.
These governments are not firebombing domestic youtube-grade nonentities
No one said it was governments who firebombed the person in question. As for Youtube-grade non-entities: I think the line is rapidly blurring between people on the internet and "real" journalists. I don't really follow the person in question though, so I can't speak for his credentials.
for these and other sins the electorate severely rebuked his party at recent state and federal elections
State elections maybe, but this secret portfolio stuff only came out after the federal election, when he lost his importance. If he had won the election, would it have come out?
> Scott Morrison making himself a secret minister of several portfolios, and for these and other sins the electorate severely rebuked his party at recent state and federal elections
Didn't this "secret minister" situation only really come to light AFTER the elections?
>Scott Morrison making himself a secret minister of several portfolios
For anyone confused about this, like me, wikipedia has an overview. The TLDR is that in Australia apparently you can have more than one person holding a ministry (health, etc) and the incumbent prime minister did this without telling the public.
Democracy that infringes on rights and liberties is still authoritarianism. Trump was democratically elected, did that make his bans on Muslims entering the US or other such policies any less authoritarian? Without protections of civil liberties democracy is easily capable of resulting in authoritarianism. As the saying goes, two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner is a democracy.
> Trump was democratically elected, did that make his bans on Muslims entering the US or other such policies any less authoritarian?
This is nonsense, Trump never put a ban on Muslims, from the ACLU (a stronlgy anti-Trump organization) President Donald
> Trump signed an Executive Order that banned foreign nationals from seven predominantly Muslim countries from visiting the country for 90 days, suspended entry to the country of all Syrian refugees indefinitely, and prohibited any other refugees from coming into the country for 120 days.[1]
Banning people from certain countries is a whole different ball game than banning people from a certain religion, further the country with the world's largest Muslim population, Indonesia wasn't even on the list.
Let me ask you how do you feel about the government labeling and suppressing misinformation?
Trump repeatedly stated that the point of the ban was to ban Muslims from entering the country. Your own source calls it a "Muslim ban":
> As the Muslim ban went into effect on Saturday, lawyers from the ACLU-WA and the NW Immigrant Rights Project rushed to SeaTac Airport to help immigrants on incoming flights who were being denied entry to the U.S.
Kind of hard to take this seriously, when your own source contradicts you. As an analogy, conservatives talk about gun bans in California and New York yet bolt action rifles remain legal there. Not every gun is banned, so it's wrong to call it a "gun ban"?
> Let me ask you how do you feel about the government labeling and suppressing misinformation?
They shouldn't and the fact that said governments are democracies doesn't make it any less authoritarian.
Fair enough - this was pre-election but still inexcusable. I didn't think he had explicitly called the 2017 travel ban a ban on Muslims, and I haven't seen anything to suggest he did.
The notable corruption we saw recently was Scott Morrison making himself a secret minister of several portfolios, and for these and other sins the electorate severely rebuked his party at recent state and federal elections.
That is what democracy, not authoritarianism, looks like.
The folks you should be suspicious of are those spoonfeeding these garbage takes to the credulous.