I've been in Hong Kong for a year and a half. As a city, it's quite nice. Low taxes, extremely safe, vibrant culture. Pollution is really the biggest downside for me (you get used to the # of people quickly, and I'm from a small city and I hate people so...)
However, professionally speaking? Forget about it. It's a horrible place for programmers. In the last couple months I've met with 2 entrepreneurs looking to move to Hong Kong as well as 2 founders already in Hong Kong. I purposefully did not lead, but all four conversations immediately went to the lack of available talent. And, we weren't talking about the lack of talent the way it is in SF or NY (where there's talent, but it's working for someone else), we are talking about the fact that if you could pick a dream team of all programmers living in Hong Kong, it wouldn't be very dreamy.
Most of the senior programmers are long-time bank employees. Their X years of experience is the same year X times. They are risk adverse and creatively challenged. What's really troubling though is that the young programmers (interns, new graduates) have a strong desire to work for the bank. It's culture...working for the bank is what they want to do. Non CS students will take programming internships because "that's what was available at the bank".
Of course you can point to some small communities or some example company, but you really have to realize that hiring is going to be a challenge you might not be able to overcome. You'll almost certainly have to get your "senior" programmers from abroad, and recruiting your talent is going to be unlike anything you've seen state-side.
I was based in Asia for 12 years hiring web development and design teams. Six of my 12 years were in HK. Finding top talent is very challenging there. I tended to hire young and train, anything else never worked out.
HK is not a cheap city to live in. I realize that it can be done cheaply, but that loses its charm quickly. Like, goodbye farmers markets and even semi-affordable organic food.
Also, if anyone else is considering HK, keep in mind that the investment model is almost purely driven by connections.
Conversely, I knew several niche development companies that had set up shop in Thailand, outside of Bangkok, and had unbelievably low overhead and very talented developers. That was years ago, but it always struck me as a savvy model.
Anyone else looking at Asia should consider Singapore as well. They have some amazing investment programs run by the government at any given time.
There are quite a few software companies in Thailand. I know a guy with 100+ local staff building iOS software. The problem with doing business in Thailand is the foreign ownership laws (you can't own your company or the building it's in) and the amount of bureaucratic red tape. The rising cost of living is also making Thailand less attractive. I've read it's on par with Chicago now. I'm not sure how that's measured but I could certainly live comfortably in Chicago for what I spend in a month here. Import taxes are outrageous. I paid 150% for my car.
I used to run a company in Thailand (not tech) but now I just live here and run a company offshore. I've become pretty negative about the place with all of its idiosyncrasies and don't think I'd set up another company here.
I've currently got my eyes on HK. Friends of friends have established several business hiring locals (though not purely tech companies) there. Everything I've heard is that it's straightforward to get setup there. It's also easy to stay there with the various visa programs they have in place.
Agree, hiring developers is going to currently be difficult, but I expect that this will steadily improve as demand grows. Coming here tends to be trivially easy, and there are a lot of things that being in either SF or NY would give a US focus to when there are a few other people globally that are potential customers.
Working in undeveloped markets tends to be both more difficult, but also can be much more rewarding.
If you want to work for a bank, probably. And you probably will be able to find a job at a startup, but (a) you won't have hundreds of choices, and (b) the pay might be horrible.
You probably shouldn't move here unless you had something lined up before hand.
I don't mind at all working for a bank... I'm already I'm fortune-100 land.
Currently living in southwest china, but coming from NYC so wondering if salaries are comparable? Are there any i-banks or hedge funds with dev shops in HK?
That said I'm really a UX guy with an enterprise background, so any BigCorp would do.
Only caveat: I have very little putonghua and zero guangdonghua. How screwed am I?
You really need to target the large international banks. UBS, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche, Credit Suisse. They use agencies/recruiters a lot, so that might be an angle of attack worth exploring.
If you do that you are fine in HK with english-only (professionally speaking. Socially, I could see it annoying some people (english is an official language in fact only), but it has never bothered me). As for salary, I don't know if they are identical to NY or London salaries, but it's gotta be in the same ballpark.
HSBC might be the only large international bank where english-only would be a problem (though I'm really not sure, just heard a few things).
That is sad but true.
Almost all my CS friends went to investment banks or private funds. I can only name a few that is willing to engage in startup-like activities. Fighting against the norm is hard here. (especially when the banks and funds pays pretty well)
I emigrated from Hong Kong when I was 9. I wouldn't mind returning to work as many of my relatives live there, but only if you are willing to pay wages on par with what I'd get in Australia...
I looked for programming jobs there and interned for 2 months. They do treat you like a slave and pay only $10,000 HKD a month. (around $300 a week).
I am an enthusiastic (and high scoring) software engineering student in Sydney. So yeah, if anyone wants to hire me to work in HK, see my profile for contact details.
Well, the banks pay wages which are comparable to what you'll get in SF/NY. You'll get more benefits and more job security. That said, I'm sure your mileage will vary, but it wasn't for me and it won't be for a lot of folks. It was easily the worst job I've had.
might I add that if you are a techie/programmer (anything to do with the 'backend'), you are not valued.
If you are an ad guy, artist, creative blah, designer blah, you are still given a smile. A programmer in the opinion of the suit coats(entrepreneurs!!) is a slave guy who executes their ideas. Trust me.
Try going to webwednesday; a meet up on some wednesday of the month.
Hey,latch,you seem to want to pay top programmers with noodles.How do you want this to work out?HK does have 2 of the top colleges in the world for CS,so I do believe there should be some people,that would be interested in startups.But maybe the problem is in the startups,in which those people may not see enough value or prospects.
However, professionally speaking? Forget about it. It's a horrible place for programmers. In the last couple months I've met with 2 entrepreneurs looking to move to Hong Kong as well as 2 founders already in Hong Kong. I purposefully did not lead, but all four conversations immediately went to the lack of available talent. And, we weren't talking about the lack of talent the way it is in SF or NY (where there's talent, but it's working for someone else), we are talking about the fact that if you could pick a dream team of all programmers living in Hong Kong, it wouldn't be very dreamy.
Most of the senior programmers are long-time bank employees. Their X years of experience is the same year X times. They are risk adverse and creatively challenged. What's really troubling though is that the young programmers (interns, new graduates) have a strong desire to work for the bank. It's culture...working for the bank is what they want to do. Non CS students will take programming internships because "that's what was available at the bank".
Of course you can point to some small communities or some example company, but you really have to realize that hiring is going to be a challenge you might not be able to overcome. You'll almost certainly have to get your "senior" programmers from abroad, and recruiting your talent is going to be unlike anything you've seen state-side.