> Why can't a new company simply undercut the competition?

They can and they do [1]. They just don't have the same marketing budget, so you don't hear as much about them.

[1] https://www.zennioptical.com/

Not to mention the pupillary distance is not commonly included on optical prescriptions which creates a significant hurdle, even though it can be measured yourself or usually given when asked.

I've asked for my pupillary distance in the past and got a talking to about how evil online ordering is and how it'll ruin my eyes before they would give it to me.

All BS, and when I asked if they'd fill a prescription for lenses for my VR unit instead of ordering them online, they stared at me like I had grown a third arm.

Mine gave me the number without question. Mind you, by this time, I had spent about 2 hours at the store trying on different frames and asking for frames that were on their website only to be told something like "we have those at the other branch, not this one".

My understanding is that they are legally required to give it to you, at least in some places.

In the US anyway, they're legally required to give you your prescription (SPH, CYL, prism, etc). However, PD and other ocular measurements aren't classified as part of a prescription.

Correct! By law, they're required to give it to you. If they refuse, just use an app on your smartphone. (eyemeasure is the one i used)

Zenni will send you a cool little cardboard ruler that sits on the bridge of your nose to measure PD. It suffices (I am wearing my Zenni frames as I write this).

I hate hate hate EssilorLuxxotica.

My ophthalmologist claimed he didn’t have the equipment to add PD to his prescription. Bald-faced liar.

BTW, the app is called PD Measure.

Ophthalmologist or optometrist? Very different, and I think the difference needs to be overstated more and more.

Not the poster but I see no reason to doubt the claim. A while back when dealing with glasses that didn't come out right my eye doc wanted to check the PD in an attempt to figure out why my glasses were bothering me (I'm incredibly sensitive on my computer pair, I can't tolerate anything that isn't absolutely spot on)--and she walked over to the optical center to borrow their PD measurer. She didn't have one because it's not something she normally needs.

I don't know anyone requiring a booster or even a vaccine for patients, but it's their practice and their health. Ophthalmologists are second only to ENT and Anesthesia in risk of contracting infectious diseases from patients due to our physical proximity to your face during the exam. Maybe that's what motivates their behavior.

Physicians do have to ask about vaccines and document the answer in order meet meaningful use requirements. Maybe this is what you experienced?

LASIK is safe, but when there are complications they're a big deal.

Pretty messed up they wouldn't let you endanger them at their own workplace

It’s clear at this point that vax/boosts don’t keep you from contracting or passing on the virus.

What matters to others is you showing up at the dentist exhibiting symptoms.

They reduce the chance, however. Imperfect protection is better than nothing.

... and yet no other doctor has that policy, or even a hospital. Pretty messed up that an ophthalmologist thinks he knows better than all of them.

I got it wrong the first time. He’s an MD ophthalmologist.

Unless there's need for specialized medical or surgical treatment, getting eye exams and eyeglass prescriptions from an ophthalmologist as opposed to a optometrist is like getting your teeth cleaned by an oral surgeon rather than a dentist. Astigmatism and/or myopia, refractive errors, corneal disease, amblyopia? Optometrist. Ptosis, proptosis, endophthalmitis, macular degeneration, excess tearing, detached retina or trauma? Ophthalmologist.

Fuck dude. I think I got macular degeneration just reading that! ;)

To be fair, I had a dentist who was technically an oral surgeon but would sometimes even bump the hygienist and do the cleanings himself; because they were easy and he was bored. Same cost to me so I didn't mind.

At the same time I agree with parent that this persons ophthalmologist was a liar and should honestly be reported for that kind of shady behavior.

EDIT: also re corneal disease unless the treatment is a contact lens go to an ophthalmologist for that one too

A simple ruler is enough. I am wearing glasses for 30 years and I had the few pairs with wrong PD, the next optometrist used a simple ruler and I am working with him for the past 20 years.

> My ophthalmologist claimed he didn’t have the equipment to add PD to his prescription.

It's called a PD Ruler and it's literally just a mm ruler. Bald-faced liar indeed.

They usually have a machine that reads it a bit more accurately.

Correction: "the equipment to add PD to his prescription" is called a pen.

I've had great experience with Zenni for single-vision prescriptions, but when I graduated to progressive (i.e. bifocal) lenses, the Zenni lenses were terrible and I couldn't use them. Not sure if it was the frame fit, or poor PD measuring on my part, but I tried twice and both times I couldn't use them.

The glasses I got from my optometrist are much better, at 3X - 4X the price of Zenni.

Zenni needs a "send in old glasses and we'll match" feature added.

It's easy to do your own PD measurement with a mirror and ruler

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33525673#33529513

my family won't even ask for the pd... so I can't buy them cheaper lenses... and I'm not going to have a giant fight with my spouse even tho for what I'm paying in vision coverage we could get 4-10x the glasses they get now.

I'll second this recommendation. I've had the same pair of $35 glasses for 5 years now, I wear them every day, and they're still good as new.

I have been using zennioptical for years, and I’ve saved friends and family lots of money with my recommendations. They don’t do fancy, brand name frames. But otherwise the quality is fine.

Those fancy brand name frames are literally just different names for Luxxotica.

It would be nice if any of these sites had an AR solution that was completely clientside. I can't bring myself to agree to let them store my face + face info for 3 years.

What they don't have is a good anti-reflective coating. If you want that, you end up back with Luxottica (Essilor.)

Your employer may offer pre-tax vision insurance, this vision insurance is run by Luxottica, and works exclusively at their retail locations and brands.

Sometimes employers will even pay part of the vision insurance premium, thus making it, so your choices are to leave that money on the table OR pay completely out of pocket post-tax dollars.

There are alternative ways to use pretax dollars on eyeware, but many people aren't familiar with them and they require some management.

Doesn’t all fsa account cover glasses? Pretty easy to use that for pre tax dollars on eyeware. You can spend it wherever you want.

Vision insurance will typically be subsidized by the employer around 50% or more, so it could still be more expensive to not use the vision insurance.

The crappy "vision insurance" we got "for free" was still more expensive out of pocket than a Walmart optometrist visit + 5 pairs from Zenni.

It's entirely a racket; would be like selling oil change insurance.

Not all of us have FSAs. We're both self-employed, no FSA money.

You know, the kind of health care self-employed people are more likely to have (high deductible) is more likely to qualify for HSA -- and an HSA is great because it's like a pre-tax extra IRA allowance if you don't use it for healthcare.

If you manufacture glasses, how are you going to get it into the hands of consumers? Luxottica owns the retail stores and the insurance company.

Retail stores can be started by anyone, and there are tons of optometrists that sell glasses from their own store.

The “insurance” company presents a higher barrier, since it is basically the government handing a discount to people for buying via employer subsidized vision “insurance”. The discount is that this benefit can be paid with pre tax dollars, so it obfuscates the real prices when people with vision insurance shop for eyewear.

I put “insurance” in quotes because the annual benefit maximums, like dental “insurance”, are so low that the premiums are simply prepaying for routine exams/eyeglasses. In effect, employer subsidized dental/vision insurance is just an advantage for large employers who can afford to administer those benefits and the employees who are lucky enough to work at those kinds of employers get to pay for routine dental/vision with pre tax dollars.

And, if you pay premiums, you’re more likely to actually go to your routine appointment and then your LTV is increased

I'm guessing that part of is that they have a very tight relationship with insurance. Insurance covers Luxottica much more than the budget brands, so for me personally, it's actually a similar price if I choose a frame that's on sale. I tried a pair of Zennis, but they honestly felt super low-quality compared to my other glasses, even though I got all the upgrades.

There are two markets: The cheap, and the "brand". You either buy a "cheap" one for $10 and get a lens for it; or you go for a "brand" name like RayBan (which is Luxottica).

I started buying cheap 4 years ago, and surprisingly the frame is still doing well (brand frames usually last 2-3 years)

Since Luxottica bought out RayBan, the quality has plummeted. I have a pair of original Wayfarer II's that I got years before the buyout. The plastic is noticeably higher quality, the lenses are polarized and Bausch & Lomb. And they have five barrel hinges! Built like a tank and have survived many drops. Mine are still going strong and are 'buy it for life' quality. Still going strong after 38 years...I got them when I was 16 years old and in HS for a trip to the Bahamas.

Compare that to current RayBans. Cheap plastic. Plastic lenses. Spring hinges that break quickly and don't last. And worst of all, branding everywhere. On the temple. And again on the lens. Terrible.

That’s how they make their money, brand names affords them to charge a lot of money, they lower the quality and the manufacturing the cost and then pocket the rest.

Because the people who can measure which glasses you need are in on it.

It's probably higher than appears at first blush, at least to do at scale. But not a huge barrier.

But there isn't an open market for manufactured lenses, you have to get them into consumers hands, and you have to get prescriptions, and people want fitting and ability to try frames.

Superficially it seems that glasses are highly vertical in practice, which is why budget outfits like zenni and warby parker seem mostly to be focused on the margins of direct-to-consumer.

Not for manufacturing, but you need good designs first, something people will want to buy. And most people will want to buy something with a BIG BRAND NAME on it.

I tried buying glasses online and discovered another problem: the industry hasn't standardized on measurements. It's very difficult to buy frames online. The numbers/measurements will be, for example, for lens width and nose bridge width only — go figure how large the entire frame is. I tried, and failed, accepting that I pretty much need to visit a store.

The frame size is normally written (in Europe, at least) on the inside of one of the arms of the glasses. Find an existing pair that fits you and note the measurements. That measure, together with your prescription and PD should be sufficient to order online.