> First, I don't see this kind of split ever working. How do you monetize it? Moving a centralized service to federated would be a massive destruction of value.
Maybe Elon can afford to take a loss to achieve this?
Or maybe the platforms ARE able to find ways to split add revenue (and other revenues) in ways that don't really destroy value.
> In politics corporate interests transcend politics and cross party lines.
How much financial support is Meta and Tik-Tok giving to Republicans? In fact, I think it's primarily Meta that has a lot to lose from this, out of the American companies. Alphabet/Youtube may actually benefit, as they are specialists when it comes to video, and if Facebook, Whatsapp and Instagram are forced to permit sharing of Youtube videos through their platforms, they may gain traffic at the cost of native video alternatives.
> Nobody wants this.
Well I do, for one.
> The idea that any of this is about free speech is a complete myth.
I'm pretty sure quite a few people care about free speech, and even more are worried about American polarization. Even many non-Americans, like me.
> The idea that an "echo chamber" is even a thing is problematic.
That's an interesting point of view. You're not only saying that they don't exist, but actually that the mere IDEA is problematic? Isn't 4chan an echo chamber?
> People are going to engage in content they like and not engage with content they don't like.
I agree. People should be able to filter content they find problematic, just like we do with email spam or how we can restrict porn in browsers, etc.
> So when Kanye goes on Twitter and launches into an anti-semitic screed he gets banned.
I watched Kanye's appearance on Lex Fridman's podcast/youtube a few days back, and it was mostly sad, tbh. Lex, being Jewish himself, pushed back pretty hard when Kanye started his Anti Semitism. But Kanye WAS allowed to speak, and neither Spotify or YouTube have take it down.
> It's simply a user behaviour problem.
On Twitter, maybe that's what it looks like. But if you sit through the podcast, maybe your conclusion is that this is more of a symptom that Kanye is going through a very rough time than some intent to be evil. Obviously he DOES have racist thoughts when it comes to Jews (or, depending on your definition of Racist, they would be if Blacks had as much power as Jews, or if he were white).
But then again, the basic conspiratorial pattern he's using doesn't seem very different from how BLM talks about "white" people. One could argue that white people have some obligation to avoid Anti Semitism due to the Holocaust. But the left seems to be quite accepting with Anti Semitism that comes from Palestinians, since they're "punching up". Aren't African Americans also "punching up" in this case?
Anyway, Kanye is a lot more than his prejudice against Jews. It IS interesting to hear his story and point of view, even if it did make me quite sad.
So, in conclusion. Let's say social media gets a protocol similar to smtp, they would be able to add optional moderation/spam filters against content like this. But I think users should be able to check their "junk folder" and whitelist content they don't think should be block listed, as long as the content is not illegal.
I've seen no evidence Elon is willing to burn Twitter to the ground to make a political point. to the contrary, he tried to back out the deal he hastily entered into and only went through with it when it became clear he was going to get railed by the Delaware Chancery Court.
Even if he is, it's a massive risk. Another platform that he doesn't own could simply rise and take its place.
> How much financial support is Meta and Tik-Tok giving to Republicans?
The Trump administration tried to block Tiktok (briefly). Many officials and politicans call it a national security risk, most recently the FCC chair just this week. While there are noises made about a break up of Meta, I suspect it's going nowhere.
> You're not only saying that they don't exist, but actually that the mere IDEA is problematic?
I'm saying anywhere people can in any way filter their experience, what they see will differ from the unfiltered view. Even if they see the same things, they will engage with things they like. Basically, this is inevitable. The problematic part is this only tends to get lablled an "echo chamber" when people filter in such a way that the criticizer doesn't like.
> But Kanye WAS allowed to speak, and neither Spotify or YouTube have take it down.
In case you didn't see it, I encourage you to read this HN submission from yesterday [1]. I'll also bring up the Paradox of Tolerance [2]. Free speech absolutism is the extreme view where anything can be posted. Not even 4chan has this. So when I say "nobody wants this", I mean everyone agrees there are and should be limits on speech so it's just a question of what those limits should be.
Any site that has attempted unmoderated free speech descends into a cesspit of Nazis and racists where everyone else leaves. Moreso, advertisers (who still pay for the platform) don't want to be associated with it so they leave too.
As you mentioned, Kanye still got an incredible amount of exposure for his views between various podcasts and the right-wing media (eg Tucker CArlson, Ben Shapiro) so it's not like he's been silenced. There's just one thing out of many he couldn't do because Twitter didn't want to be associated with it.
> But then again, the basic conspiratorial pattern he's using doesn't seem very different from how BLM talks about "white" people.
Free speech is fundamentally a political issue, otherwise I'd try not to get into this topic. I understand your confusion, which I certainly believe to be in good faith. I'll scratch the surface of this as neutrally and briefly as I can.
"Whiteness" and "blackness" as concepts are not equivalent. "Blackness" is an invented concept for various people who were robbed of their heritage, culture and language through chattel slavery. It's why we say "African-American" for black people but "Italian-American" or "Polish-American" or whatever for white people.
"Whiteness" as a concept is defined by two properties: 1) The proximity to power and 2) Not being black. It is a concept rooted in white supremacy. Who counts as "white" also changes. Ben Franklin, for example, didn't count Germans as "white". Now we count Italians as "white". That wasn't alwyas the case.
You are correct in that part of this is "punching up" vs "punching down" but you should also know that this idea of equivalent concepts is used by white supremacists. "White power" was a reaction to "black power" as an emancipating force in the 1960s. "White Lives Matter" (and even "All Lives Matter") are the same response to "Black Lives Matter" (BLM). They're also insidious because they imply that BLM means white lives don't matter. It's more accurate to say "Black Lives Matter Too" even though no one was suggesting white lives don't matter.
Kanye is actually pushing white supremacist views. You don't have to be white to be a white supremacist.
> But the left seems to be quite accepting with Anti Semitism that comes from Palestinians
Anti-semitism (hatred of Jewish people) isn't the same as anti-Zionism (opposition to the policies of the state of Israel). People try and conflate the two to deflect any criticism of Israeli actions. There are very valid criticisms to be made of Israel's treatment of Palestinians (eg [3]). The ADL is extremely active in American politics and spends a lot of money in races to defeat candidates critical of Israel.
> I've seen no evidence Elon is willing to burn Twitter to the ground to make a political point. to the contrary
Not burn to the ground, simply build something with a lower monetary value today, if he thinks it can lower tribalism. Consider something like linux. It's precicely the fact that it's not monetised that ensures the near monopoly in the server OS space.
> Any site that has attempted unmoderated free speech descends into a cesspit of Nazis and racists where everyone else leaves.
My take is that anything that is within the law should be allowed to be posted, but extremist propaganda (especialy when fueled by hate), whether it's from the left or right, should be supressed hard unless the reader explicitly disables such suppression.
Btw, one sign that someone is close to one of the extremes is that the person stops recognizing that there IS indeed dangerous extremism on both sides.
> "Blackness" is an invented concept for various people who were robbed of their heritage, culture and language through chattel slavery.
I'm not American. I live in a place with a different history and context. Generally, though, it seems that most "normal" people seem to assign identity to themselves and other based on how they appear, and that this happens at an early age.
Precisely how this forms categories tends to vary with time and space, like for almost all other categories. Even basic things as the number of the colors in the rainbow varies between cultures. For instance, in Islam, the rainbow only has four colors. The truth is that colors form a one-dimensional spectrum, while ethnicity forms a multi-dimensional spectrum.
> "Whiteness" as a concept is defined by two properties: 1) The proximity to power and 2) Not being black.
For me, this is not a useful way. When I meet people from around the world, I associate them by origin to some extent, but at a much granular level, even within countries. Hamburg is different from Munich, Manchester different from Brighton, Chongqing is different from Shangahai, And Dehli is different from Bengaluru. Africa is similar. Egypt has a distinct identity, especially in the big cities up north. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya each have theirs. Together these countries have a lot in common, and also a lot in common with Southern Europe. Nigeria or Mozambique are both quite different from North Africa, but also very different from each other, and so on.
When you meet people from most of these places, they will have a word to label "people of European descent". For instance, in Thailand, the term is "Farrang". When these people speak English, they may use terms such as White, Black or Asian, but in their minds (as in mine) they will keep the same meanings as they assign at home.
Someone of the Chinese elite in Singapore definitely don't think of themselves as "White", nor are they "Black". If their status is high enough, they may not even allow their daughters to marry someone of European descent.
> You are correct in that part of this is "punching up" vs "punching down" but you should also know that this idea of equivalent concepts is used by white supremacists.
It absolutely is. This way of thinking is precisely what leads to much of the most extreme racial hatred. Hitler saw the Jews as oppressors. The Hutus saw the Tutsies as oppressors, just to name a couple.
You mention the Paradox of Tolerance. I definitely do not think we should tolerate racial/ethnic hatred, whether it comes from someone with ancestors from Europe, Africa, the Middle East, India or China. "Punching up" should not be a valid excuse. The only way we can coexist in a multi ethnic and multi cultural society is by demanding tolerance of everyone, and be intolerant of those who do not.
I believe that we actually do not have a choice about this, if the culture we live in is to survive. If we tolerate racial prejudice, I belive there will eventually be some kind of physical conflict likely to end up with a really bad outcome, either genocide or ethnic cleansing/balkanization.
In fact, I think it may be impossible to sustain a multi ethnic/multi cultural society forever. A culture of tolerance may keep tribal conflicts at bay, but unless we can merge into One People (through cross-marriage), there will be a day in the future where some even or charismatic person will cause a massive conflict.
> Kanye is actually pushing white supremacist views.
I recommend seeing the podcast with Lex. Kanye seems quite confused, but if anything, it seems he identifies with the "gang" (his term), and that he simply has come into conflicts with some number of people that happen to be Jewish. He does NOT seem like a puppet of Maga republicans as far as I can tell. He simply seems to think there is a conflict between people like him (basically "gang members" in the music industry) and "Jews".
> Anti-semitism (hatred of Jewish people) isn't the same as anti-Zionism
Obviously not, but I didn't mean only anti-Zionism. Not all arabs, especially in and around Palestine are making that distinction. In fact, the books "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" and "Mein Kampf" are both popular books in Palestine and to some extent other Arab countries. The hatred does NOT seem to be limited to Israel and Zionists.
In Northern Europe, using the word "Jew" in as a derogatory term was strictly taboo 30 years ago. Now, however, after considerable immigration form Arab countries and Pakistan, the term has come back. Mostly in immigrant communities, but it is also starting to come back in working class locals that go to the same schools as the muslim immigrants. You do NOT want to walk around dressed like a orthodox Jew in the rougher neighborhoods of Northern Europe.
Maybe Elon can afford to take a loss to achieve this?
Or maybe the platforms ARE able to find ways to split add revenue (and other revenues) in ways that don't really destroy value.
> In politics corporate interests transcend politics and cross party lines.
How much financial support is Meta and Tik-Tok giving to Republicans? In fact, I think it's primarily Meta that has a lot to lose from this, out of the American companies. Alphabet/Youtube may actually benefit, as they are specialists when it comes to video, and if Facebook, Whatsapp and Instagram are forced to permit sharing of Youtube videos through their platforms, they may gain traffic at the cost of native video alternatives.
> Nobody wants this.
Well I do, for one.
> The idea that any of this is about free speech is a complete myth.
I'm pretty sure quite a few people care about free speech, and even more are worried about American polarization. Even many non-Americans, like me.
> The idea that an "echo chamber" is even a thing is problematic.
That's an interesting point of view. You're not only saying that they don't exist, but actually that the mere IDEA is problematic? Isn't 4chan an echo chamber?
> People are going to engage in content they like and not engage with content they don't like.
I agree. People should be able to filter content they find problematic, just like we do with email spam or how we can restrict porn in browsers, etc.
> So when Kanye goes on Twitter and launches into an anti-semitic screed he gets banned.
I watched Kanye's appearance on Lex Fridman's podcast/youtube a few days back, and it was mostly sad, tbh. Lex, being Jewish himself, pushed back pretty hard when Kanye started his Anti Semitism. But Kanye WAS allowed to speak, and neither Spotify or YouTube have take it down.
> It's simply a user behaviour problem.
On Twitter, maybe that's what it looks like. But if you sit through the podcast, maybe your conclusion is that this is more of a symptom that Kanye is going through a very rough time than some intent to be evil. Obviously he DOES have racist thoughts when it comes to Jews (or, depending on your definition of Racist, they would be if Blacks had as much power as Jews, or if he were white).
But then again, the basic conspiratorial pattern he's using doesn't seem very different from how BLM talks about "white" people. One could argue that white people have some obligation to avoid Anti Semitism due to the Holocaust. But the left seems to be quite accepting with Anti Semitism that comes from Palestinians, since they're "punching up". Aren't African Americans also "punching up" in this case?
Anyway, Kanye is a lot more than his prejudice against Jews. It IS interesting to hear his story and point of view, even if it did make me quite sad.
So, in conclusion. Let's say social media gets a protocol similar to smtp, they would be able to add optional moderation/spam filters against content like this. But I think users should be able to check their "junk folder" and whitelist content they don't think should be block listed, as long as the content is not illegal.