I'd rather my country not follow the US off yet another cliff. We still remember the US lying about weapons of mass destruction to justify yet another unnecessary war (only necessary to feed the American war machine)
Many countries' establishments have a fear of lying, due to the repercussions of what happens if they were caught. That is the very reason why Soviet establishment chose not to lie, as we see from the period's records. Which made their propaganda much less effective compared to the emotional manipulation - especially atrocity propaganda - that Angloamerica uses.
Lying is an establishment practice in Angloamerica only because Angloamerican public uses ignoring their own lot's offenses and directing their ire at external enemies as a way to create and protect group cohesion. They are not dumb. They believe the lies that they are told willingly for that purpose and ignore the offenses of those who perpetuate them for the above reason. That's why the entire administrations who lied about things like Iraqi WMDs, Vietnam etc and murdered tens of millions of people over 30-40 years are still on top of the establishment instead of getting persecuted.
The history of the atrocity propaganda as a policy tool in Angloamerica goes back to Elizabethan England, which used a lot of smears against its Spanish enemies and it worked. In the following centuries, we see the English establishment using lies about external enemies and atrocity propaganda as a means to scare the English to support the aristocratic regime and justify wars. From the war of Jenkins' Ear to whatever example one may pick. "Evildoers are about to beat our fleet and invade our islands" is the constant propaganda in between 1560-1760.
In World War I, atrocity propaganda was institutionalized - there was no other way to justify a millions of commoners dying for aristocratic monarchies whose monarchs were cousins among themselves. So was invented the "Germans murdered and raped babies in Belgium" lie, which STILL goes on today with many people believing that Germans actuall did that.
It worked very well for Britain in Ww I. From that point on, Britain never let go of atrocity propaganda and lies, and the US copied a lot of their practices. Iraqi WMD case is just a trifle compared to the constant lying, smearing and 'wag the dog' cases over ~100 years of recent history.
I have no problem with being labeled a tankie. So save that for the American discourse. It has absolutely no effect in my country.
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Its only insane because you have no knowledge of actual history, less, the actual declassified documents of the USSR and instead 'know' things based on the cold war propaganda that you sucked up over the years.
Like how 'propaganda' was something that only 'others' did, and there was 'free press' in 'the West.
> Its only insane because you have no knowledge of actual history
You realise that Russia and the USSR lied nearly constantly right? And you can hear about it from like hundreds of millions of post soviet citizens?.
I mean it’s gotta be beyond clear to anyone that Russia lies to its own citizens there soldiers dug defences in one of the most radioactive parts of the world.
> You realise that Russia and the USSR lied nearly constantly right?
No. We dont. That's what the American propaganda tells us. Not the circumstances and actual declassified documents. Character assassination, nothing else.
> hundreds of millions of post soviet citizens?.
Hundreds of millions of post soviet citizens do not say anything like that.
> I mean it’s gotta be beyond clear to anyone that Russia lies
That's a religious statement. Nothing else.
The US lied about nonexistent WMDs for EIGHT years. And yet, its propaganda is the one that's being trusted to determine the trustworthiness of others. That's just crazy.
> The US lied about nonexistent WMDs for EIGHT years. And yet, its propaganda is the one that's being trusted to determine the trustworthiness of others. That's just crazy.
You realise multiple countries can lie? its not a zero sum game?.
'Can' lie is not the same as 'using lying as a policy tool'. The Angloamerican establishment have been doing it for so long that they have a nickname in diplomacy and political science that goes 200 years back.
>> So if Russia doesn't lie can you explain this?.
It was later revealed that Russia was doing 'maneuvers' at the border to force the Ukrainian government to give up invading the Russian speaking breakaway regions like it did 5-10 times in the last 8 years. Russia expected the Ukrainian government to do the same again, but this time they seem to have chosen to go ahead due to US pressure.
> It was later revealed that Russia was doing 'maneuvers' at the border to force the Ukrainian government to give up invading the Russian speaking breakaway regions like it did 5-10 times in the last 8 years
Those regions are part of Ukraine you cannot invade yourself.
> Russia expected the Ukrainian government to do the same again, but this time they seem to have chosen to go ahead due to US pressure.
You’re really determined to defend Russia on every front aren’t you?.
I’m just glad that most people know the truth and that your clear propaganda is failing.
I presume you believe Ukraine has black magic battalions and biologically engineered super soldiers as well?.
Because that’s what Russian media has been reporting.
I dont 'believe'. We have their declassified records. We know what they did, what they decided to do. We know that they withheld information or the truth. But we know that they did not lie or misrepresent because they decided the risk of getting caught was too high. This is not a matter of belief, its what they decided.
'They lied' is the cold war propaganda of their enemy. Whose entire propaganda has been based on lies for over 60 years. And amazingly, the village liar is calling everyone else liars and the villagers just BELIEVE it.
"But we know that they did not lie or misrepresent "
You are detached from reality.
" We know what they did"
Yeh, they lied about everything all the time
* Chernobyl
* Korean Air Lines Flight 007
* The Katyn massacre
* Soviet government always claimed that people’s living conditions in the Western countries were worse than in the Soviet Union. As they say, the bigger the lie the more they’ll believe in it…until you see the evidence to the contrary.
In 1939, Finland successfully fought off the Soviet Union in the Winter War. Finland had gained independence in 1917 and built a social democracy, geared towards the needs of its people.
Few Soviet people who visited Finland in 1980s thought they landed on another planet. And then they had to return to the USSR and listen to fairy tales about the “socialist paradise.”
A children’s movie “Mikko from Tampere Asks for Advice” was a joint Soviet-Finnish production that came out in 1986.
On the surface, it was stock propaganda patronizing the “little nation.” Finnish boy Mikko wants to meet a famous Soviet cat tamer, Kuklachev so he could teach him how to take care of his cat.
The film director went for realism and shot many scenes in Finland, inadvertently allowing millions of Soviet children (including this author) to have a glimpse of their peers‘ lives behind the Iron Curtain.
Let’s take a close look at some scenes from the movie to understand why it caused such an uproar among the Soviet children and their parents.
Mikke’s dad works as a driver. The driver’s family is supposed to share a communal apartment with ten families, yet they live in their own private house, which is not a one-room-plus-kitchen country cottage with an outhouse toilet either. There are at least three rooms in the house! There is a living room with wonderful, bright furniture. The concept of living room was novel to Soviet people so many of them were wondering where are the beds.
The driver’s family house also had a dining room with a large cool table and beautiful bright chairs for all the family members. Dining room was also a novel concept to most of the Soviet viewers: they cooked and ate in the kitchen. And lo and behold, there is the second floor with a nice, painted staircase!
Soviet children expected to see an attic with a tiny room upstairs. Mikko had his own comfortable room, and what was really hard to swallow - his own bathroom!
Viewers weren't looking at Mikko dad’s minivan. All eyes were on the surrounding houses. They looked beautiful and neat, no Soviet flaky wall paint that was always explained by “we have a cold climate.”
Mikko plays in the children's band. The children have all the musical instruments that they needed. Mikko’s dad bought him a guitar and wasn’t humiliated with sorrowful stories about the Soviet state and Comrade Gorbachev personally taking care of the children of the world, so there’s nothing left for him.
Soviet children immediately paid attention to how Finnish children were dressed: jeans, fashionable pants, bright and colorful print t-shirts. No scary school uniform made of ugly synthetic-wool fabric. Bright clothes, bicycles, their own rooms, interesting hobbies - all these things Finnish children had without having to listen to stories about the leading role of the Communist Party and the "international duty" in Afghanistan. In other words, they had a great life without 24/7 propaganda.
Five years later the Soviet Union had run out of magic tricks and ended its short but eventful existence.
I don't have time for a long discussion so I will just address a few glaring points and then leave it at that:
> Chernobyl
Withholding information is not the same with lying. Many Americans still don't know about Three Mile Island, leave aside having any idea that the regulatory agency keeps reducing the safety standards for US reactors to keep 40+ year old reactors operating.
> Korean Air Lines Flight 007
Where's the lie in that. Multiple times the USSR warned about violations of their airspace, and shot them down when they have not complied.
> The Katyn massacre
Reported by Nazis, whose memoirs worry about someone investigating the bullets found on the location and getting the event linked to the Germans. Even if you trust the Nazis, Soviets did not lie about the incident, they did not release any information.
> * Soviet government always claimed that people’s living conditions in the Western countries were worse than in the Soviet Union
Kennedy administration's internal memos say the same. Soviets were raising their life standards too fast. Which was 'worrying' because other countries could copy them and try 'independent development' (socialism), leaving US axis. Leading to what is today called 'the domino theory', and to Vietnam war and all the atrocities that followed it. Along with the arms and space race that the Kennedy administration started to starve them of GDP as economic warfare.
There was no lie in it. They were correct.
The reality is to the opposite and its so much worse - USSR told Soviets that there was much poverty in the US and there were a lot of homeless even in places like NY. Soviets did not believe them. ~40 years later, there are still Russians who believe that there are no homeless in the US.
> Soviet-Finnish production that came out in 1986.
By 1986, the Soviet administration was co-opted with many Yeltsinites doing whatever the US asked of them. There is no 'Soviet' at that point. They even went to the extent of doing EVERY single thing that the 'chicago boys' wanted. They did things that were not even imaginable as policies during Reagan era in the US.
And sorry, but if a movie is your basis for opinion, your opinion stands on shaky grounds.
Here is what the former citizens of the Eastern Bloc think.
I recommend you do your own independent reading. Starting from the cold war relic Angloamerican and satellite press and publications, you won't get anywhere near the truth.
"Kennedy administration's internal memos say the same. Soviets were raising their life standards too fast."
You completely missed the point. By the 80s standards of living in the US and Western Europe were vastly better than inside the USSR but the USSR lied to its population. This is why a movie showing average middle class life inside Finland was so shocking to the average Russian.
as for Korean Air Lines Flight 007 the USSR initially LIED and said they didn't shoot the plane down. They later admitted the TRUTH that they did shoot down the plane, but they lied about the true nature of the plane. The USSR also lied about "no remains of the victims, the instruments or their components or the flight recorders have so far been discovered". This statement was subsequently shown to be untrue by Boris Yeltsin's release in 1993 of a November 1983 memo from KGB head Viktor Chebrikov and Defence Minister Dmitriy Ustinov to Yuri Andropov. This memo stated, "In the third decade of October this year the equipment in question (the recorder of in-flight parameters and the recorder of voice communications by the flight crew with ground air traffic surveillance stations and between themselves) was brought aboard a search vessel and forwarded to Moscow by air for decoding and translation at the Air Force Scientific Research Institute." The Soviet Government statement would further be contradicted by Soviet civilian divers who later recalled that they viewed the wreckage of the aircraft on the bottom of the sea for the first time on September 15, two weeks after the plane had been shot down.
Concealing information IS lying when it comes to situations like this.
"Even if you trust the Nazis, Soviets did not lie about the incident, they did not release any information."
Soviet leaders insisted for decades that the Polish officers found at Katyn had been killed by the invading Germans in 1941. This explanation was accepted without protest by successive Polish communist governments until the late 1980s, when the Soviet Union allowed a noncommunist coalition government to come to power in Poland. In March 1989 this government officially shifted the blame for the Katyn Massacre from the Germans to the Soviet secret police, the NKVD. In 1992 the Russian government released documents proving that the Soviet Politburo and the NKVD had been responsible for the massacre and cover-up and revealing that there may have been more than 20,000 victims. In 2000 a memorial was opened at the site of the killings in Katyn.
