Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

I've never expected change when I pay with cash at a restaurant. Admittedly, this is mostly because of our crazy tip culture; but I just round the charge+tip to a convenient amount.

The money on the line with handing your card to the server is not comically small. They can max out your credit card with whatever charges they want. They don't even need to go through their POS system, as they can charge your card with any online retailer.




Fraud on credit cards from theft or merchants incorrectly billing is also far more protected in the US than in most any European country, and probably most other countries as well. It’s far less of a consideration in one’s mind when every bank I’ve had in the US defaults to believing the card owner over the merchant unless proven otherwise. These protections are more “balanced” between both sides in a place like Switzerland, for instance.


> Fraud on credit cards from theft or merchants incorrectly billing is also far more protected in the US than in most any European country, and probably most other countries as well.

It’s a common comment from Americans, but is misleading at the very least.

I have never even heard of a fraudulent transaction that was not reversed almost immediately, and I have been living in 3 EU countries (well, one of them ex-EU now). The procedure is: call the bank, notify them, they suspend the card and send you a new one (usually for free once a year or so, for about €20 after that). Usually they call you before you notice it; they are very good at spotting this.

It’s the same thing for card-present fraud: you have some time to declare your card lost or stolen, and all the transactions after the time you lost it are reversed. Your liability is €50 for the transactions that happened before you called them, and nothing afterwards.

I am willing to believe that consumer protection is better in the US for some specific aspects, but I am yet to see relevant examples.


When were you living in the EU? Credit cards have been around for a while, laws have changed over that time. Also credit cards have realized making it easier to reverse charges for fraud makes consumers more likely to use a card. Both are factors, and thus both of you are completely correct.


I have been continuously living in the EU or the UK for ~20 years. I have never had a credit card.

My first experience was with a bog standard Visa debit card at a French bank 10 years ago (card not present; someone apparently used my card at an ATM in Singapore to withdraw €1200 total; the bank notified me and refunded the first €500 withdrawal that went through).

My second experience was at a British bank just before Brexit (standard Visa debit card as well). I had lost my card without realising it. I called my bank when I found out and they went through the recent history to check every transaction. It turned out someone bought something with the card (can’t remember whether it was online or contactless; a small sum regardless) and that was refunded.

The regulations are very consumer friendly, even for debit cards, which everybody uses. And while they do indeed change with time, so far it has been in the direction of better consumers protections.

I don’t claim that Europe is better or anything like that, just that “the consumer is liable for frauds with their card” is wrong. IIRC, their liability is €50 maximum (and €0 in some countries) for transactions that happened before the bank was notified, and €0 after. Beyond that, the onus is on the bank to demonstrate negligence or fraud on the consumer’s part. In that case of course the consumers is liable and gets a fine at the very least.


> just that “the consumer is liable for frauds with their card” is wrong

To be clear, I neither said that not intended to imply that, so I find it a little questionable that you placed it in quotes. I think the protections are more or less fine, but seem to vary more and aren't as clear-cut for zero liability as I've found in the US, but I'm sure this varies a lot by country anyway. In any case, I've lived in multiple European countries for years now, so my experience is not solely from the US.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: