I used to admire the US constitution. I've grown up now.
Who could possibly be opposed to human rights - i.e. human beings having rights? And indeed, the US constitution does appear to be largely about rights.
Over the years I've increasingly leaned to the view that these rights are mostly a legal fiction, and that the things that are supposedly rights are highly subjective political footballs. Nowadays I think of a constitution as a largely non-political set of rules for how government works; i.e. it's a description of a mechanism, not a description of an outcome.
From that point of view, the US Constitution is an awful constitution.
> s I've increasingly leaned to the view that these rights are mostly a legal fiction
Ultimately all constitutions are just ink on paper (or parchment depending on age) and are only as good as the people who govern.
> things that are supposedly rights are highly subjective political footballs.
The fabric of society is a pitch where political football is played. The US Constitution is a product of the times when it was created, and so our pitch was created to balance the power of populous states vs. rural states with proportional representation (House) and fixed representation (Senate) and the electoral college. It took great pains to prevent rule by fiat of the executive because of the lesson from English rule. It's surprising it has held up, but a lot of the pressures that existed when it was created are still present (red state/blue state is really urban/rural) in the US today.
> From that point of view, the US Constitution is an awful constitution.
If a slow, plodding government that is largely effective only when faced with unifying crisis or there is a very high level of consensus is what you want, then the US Constitution works.
Yes, it's clear to everyone that your voting rights in the USA depend on where you live. That map of Texas is just one particularly egregious example of a gerrymandered district.
I think it's crazy that national (federal) elections are held under rules that vary from state to state; and that a congressional district the shape of a snake is permissible at all, whoever gets to draw the district. It seems obvious to me that national elections should be held under uniform national rules. But it's none of my business; I don't live in the USA, and I'm not from the USA.
Here's how you can tell if a set of rights is more correct or less correct - how well a country organized around those rights thrives, or fails to thrive.
The US has thrived, meaning its definition of rights is reasonably on the mark.
Yeah, well I don't see a country that's thriving, except in terms of wealth (for some). I see a country lurching towards another Civil War.
Anyway, my point was that I don't think these rights exist, and that framing things in terms of rights is arse-over-tit. I'm not interested in arguing whether the US chose the right set of rights; I'm saying I have no idea what a "right" is, other than a privilege granted by law.
Apparently not; many states have a death penalty (i.e. a withdrawal of that privilege). Prosecution of policemen for murder is rare, and a conviction is even rarer.
And you're still baldly asserting that rights exist, without explaining what rights are or where they come from.
> Who could possibly be opposed to human rights - i.e. human beings having rights? And indeed, the US constitution does appear to be largely about rights.
What do you mean? US citizens have pretty much the most rights of any people in the world.
Can you list the countries that guarantee freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, freedom from unreasonable searches and freedom to stay silent (not incriminate yourself)?
(Of course, the implementation of these rights is ... imperfect.)
That’s begging the question. If you define rights specifically by enumerating how they are defined in the bill of rights of course the US comes out on top. That’s before your hedge about implementation.
In practice the US performs rather badly when scores on civil liberties.
>In practice the US performs rather badly when scores on civil liberties.
Which IMO is mostly a reflection of a country in which a large subset of the electorate do not really believe in human rights beyond the extent of a useful legal fiction to be followed in the default case and quietly ignored in the pursuit of specific outcomes.
If the people had a hardline stance on human rights and civil liberties the government would reflect that.
The USA — with the 'most rights of any people in the world' — incarcerates the most people, by far, in some of the most inhumane conditions (slavery is explicitly legal in such contexts) among the developed nations.
We're 'free' in an Orwellian sense. Freedom to be educated, have health care regardless of one's employment|wealth, welfare with dignity for those in need — none of these concepts come into consideration into what 'freedom' actually means in practice.
My political leanings started libertarian. Over the years, I have traveled and read, and came to see the US for the farce it is, and encounter the deluded population convinced America is 'the greatest nation ever'. It has potential for sure, but when will we unlock it and truly taste real freedom?
US citizens do indeed have a constitution that confers lots of rights.
My contention is simply that these rights are legal fictions and political footballs, and should not be in-scope for a constitution. They shouldn't be baked-in; they should be simple legislation.
I mainly don't believe in these "rights". I think people should be treated fairly and equitably; and I think that should be a matter of law. But constitution is about meta-law - how laws are made, not what their effect is.
> those "inalienable" rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence
/me not subject to USA law.
I've already said that I think "rights" are a fiction; so to me, inalienable rights are an inalienable fiction. Just because they've been written down doesn't make them real.
What are these rights? (I'm not asking for their enumeration; I want to know where they come from, what they're made of, if you like). I did philosophy at University (a long time ago), including a module on political philosophy. I don't know of any basis for the notion of a "right", other than privileges freely granted by others.
So, for example, I have a right to a state pension; I've paid for it all my working life, and I'm over 65. But the government can infringe that supposed right simply by passing a budget that abolishes it. It's a privilege, not a right.
The US constitution claims to protect these "rights" from infringement by legislators, enforced by the Supreme Court. But I have to say, the Supreme Court nowadays looks more like just another legislative body than a superior appeals court.
They come from human nature. The evidence comes from how well a society thrives, or fails to thrive, under particular sets of rights. The US has thrived, so its concept of rights is more accurate than, say, communist rights, under which people do very poorly.
Well, OK. Or maybe they come from garden compost, or the luminiferous aether. You're just making bald assertions.
As far as "communist rights" are concerned, I don't think the idea of rights has much prominence in communist thought.
And your linking of rights (as you conceive of rights) with "thriving" (which you haven't defined, but I assume you mean wealth) is pretty fishy. Many people in the USA are not wealthy at all.
They're political footballs because people don't want people they don't like or are who are doing things they don't like to have rights and monkeying with definitions is easier than the full frontal assault of amending the constitution.
How many times have you seen people on HN advocating, to much popular support, for infringing upon the 4th amendment for people who are involved in specific types of business or the infringing upon 5th amendment protections for people engaged in certain activities?
The fourth is effectively a law that constrains the authorities from carrying out searches under many circumstances.
The fifth constrains courts from forcing people to testify against themselves.
These rules are often framed as "rights", but they are really restrictions on the power of government officials.
I'm not sure why you have put this in terms of "specific types of business" and "certain activities". What types of business, and what activities, receive special protection under those amendments? What are you getting at?
I used to admire the US constitution. I've grown up now.
Who could possibly be opposed to human rights - i.e. human beings having rights? And indeed, the US constitution does appear to be largely about rights.
Over the years I've increasingly leaned to the view that these rights are mostly a legal fiction, and that the things that are supposedly rights are highly subjective political footballs. Nowadays I think of a constitution as a largely non-political set of rules for how government works; i.e. it's a description of a mechanism, not a description of an outcome.
From that point of view, the US Constitution is an awful constitution.