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But this is true for ML syntax too, isn't it? And ML-likes are widely considered to be readable.

There are also features of concatenative languages, like quoting in Joy or Factor, which can help alleviate the problem.




> But this is true for ML syntax too, isn't it?

In ML, function application is left-associative, and therefore `a b c` always means `(a b) c`. It can’t mean `a (b c)`, even if that would fit the types.

The expression structure is therefore independent from the types in ML. You can parse the expression tree without a symbol table. In concatenative languages, on the other hand, you need to look up the types, or if the language is dynamically typed, the expression structure only manifests at runtime.


What I mean in ML syntax, every function is a curried function of only one argument. So you don't know how many arguments a function has without looking up its type. In concatenative languages, this is similar, every function (with exception of special forms) is a function from stack to stack, and to see how many arguments it has you also have to look at its type.

I think concatenative syntax is in fact more elegant than ML syntax, since it also "curries" return values, and is evaluated in the same order as written.


If b is declared to be infix by default, then it will be an application of function b to arguments a and c though. So you need to know the symbol table anyway it seems.


Haskell coders have to do this often enough that there is a token that does this grouping… f $ g x = f (g x), so the expression `a b c` is still a source for ambiguity.


`$` is an operator. There is no ambiguity (you might not know the precedence table but that doesn’t make it ambigious).


`$` = id


I think currying by default is an antifeature and ML would be better off with f(x,y,z) call syntax. It interacts poorly with type inference: forget a parameter, or swap a parameter, and get an incomprehensible type error message about some function type that has little to do with the actual fault. This is prevented by parenthesizing expressions and using tuples as the sole argument.


> But this is true for ML syntax too, isn't it? And ML-likes are widely considered to be readable.

I don't see how that's true for ML. Could you give an example showing the ambiguity?

Edit: I think I can see how the presence of infix syntax may cause that. As in: when you see "a b c" it will read differently based on whether "b" is a function that's declared to be infix by default. Yeah, I think infix notation is a mistake. The more I think about syntax, the more appeal I see in S-expressions.


In ML syntax, you don't know how many arguments a function will take, because of currying, and it's a (useful) feature, not a bug.

Similarly, in concatenative languages, there is ambiguity how many parameters will a function take/leave on the stack.


> In ML syntax, you don't know how many arguments a function will take, because of currying, and it's a (useful) feature, not a bug.

Currying doesn't change the picture here from the situation in, let's say, C. If it wasn't for "infixr", there would only be one way to parenthesise an expression. Just like in C, you could apply a function of N arguments to N+2 arguments, and the function call would get interpreted by the compiler as function application to N+2 arguments. It's just that there would be a type error, but gramatically, there is no ambiguity about which symbols are used as called functions, and which as arguments to the functions (and to which functions)... as long as you don't use "infixr". Same with a function of N+2 arguments getting N arguments. At some point you get a type error probably, because you're going to get a function, where you expected a non-function; but the type system doesn't influence the building of AST (in this place at least). Looking at the source you know how many arguments are getting applied to what, without even knowing the definitions of functions, as long as you don't play with infix functions.

To make an example, again ignoring infix stuff, given "a b c d e", I know to read the whole expression as application of function a to arguments b, c, d, e. To be even more literal, SML doesn't have multiple-argument functions, all functions take one argument, and I can write it as "((((a b) c) d) e)". Unlike in concatenative languages, the function application doesn't suddenly stop in the middle of this expression, just because a takes fewer arguments than it was given, e.g. this expression can never be interpreted as "((a b) c) (d e)", even if it made more sense from the point of view of types of a, b, c, d, e.

But when you do add infix syntax, then yeah, there is ambiguity, and now AST building is driven by the symbol table a bit.


> To make an example, again ignoring infix stuff, given "a b c d e", I know to read the whole expression as application of function a to arguments b, c, d, e.

Yes, but what does it really tell you? It doesn't tell you that the final result is a primitive value, it might as well be a function again. (We need to be careful how we define an "return argument", whether it is only primitive types, or also function types, and based on the chosen definition, the ambiguity is present in both types of syntax, or in neither.)

Similarly, if I have a program "a b c d e" in concatenative language, it is a function from stack to stack, and we don't know, how many arguments it either took from or left at the stack when it's done, without looking at the types.

The point is, ambiguity regarding number of processed arguments is there in both cases. Except in concatenative languages, it also applies to the returned arguments (i.e. a "function" in a concatenative language can kinda take negative number of arguments).

I think what mainly confuses you is that you really don't need an AST with concatenative languages. And it cannot be created, it's not a tree, more like "abstract syntax sequence".




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