I love Skyrim and Bethesda games because the developers give the community tools to mod the games, but IMO the majority of the modding community evolved in a very bad place, a egocentric place. Most of the modders only give you the right to download the mod from the Nexus site using an account and a browser so they the modders get a bump to their downloads counter and hopefully an endorsements.
The effect is that a lot of people wasted their time modding their game , and this process is very time consuming(reading each mod instructions carefully, reading the bug reports and posts, executing the steps, starting the game and testing it) and modding is very error prone , some weird bug can trigger late in the game and ruing everything, disabling a mod can cause problems too , finding the cause of a crash is also very time consuming and maybe impossible.
In other games you have the concept of a mod pack (is a bit like a distro) but this is not possible with majority of this Skyrim mods, the Nexus website invented a concept of Collection that is a complex process that might work but has best results if you pay a subscriptions.
Anyway the recent events in open source community made me thingk abut Skyrim community, if Open Source projects with a big downloads or star counter get some money or some badges the developers might fall in the trap of Skyrim moders and wanting to bump their counters will restrict their distribution, I am afraid we will see licenses with restrictions like MIT + GitHub restriction where you can use the code only if you downloaded it from GitHub and from this specific repo(no forks or re hosting allowed). This seems impossible now but as we see in my example with this Skyrim community it will happen slowly.
There are open source and/or non restricted Skryum mod and I think most of this ones are inspired by Free Software philosophy.
> Most of the modders only give you the right to download the mod from the Nexus site using an account and a browser so they the modders get a bump to their downloads counter and hopefully an endorsements.
Why is that so bad? Modders are just using Nexus as a way to host their mods and facilitate the community discussion. Some mods are huge after all, Nexus provides the hosting for the downloads, and software to manage them.
> The effect is that a lot of people wasted their time modding their game
Without a community site at the centre this process would be immeasurably harder. It's an inherently hard problem to manage hundreds of modders making independent mods and getting them all to work together. I'm not sure what the alternative is.
There are certainly reasons to not like Nexus, but I think you'd find modding somewhat requires a site like Nexus. You have to make both the consumer and the creator's experience easy enough that people will be bothered to do it. If I had to sift through 40 different personal blogs to download .zips of mods and load them, I just wouldn't bother.
I have nothing against Nexus, my pont was "you can only download this mod from this url" , this means if Nexus goes down it will be illegal for some kind soul to publish the mod on a different website.
Other problems are when a mod has a bug, you will very often see in comments things like
"I can share a fixed mod, the author is gone and I don't have the permissions, so JUST open the mod in this tool, and do this exact 12 steps" then the entire community has to do this process because you can't put a fixed version up.
So I would prefer it to be a collaborative community and less of a store where you pay with your download and endorsement.
Fair enough, it's a really muddy situation but I do see what you're trying to achieve. What makes it muddy is that some mods are just tweaks to the game, have no new IP or novel assets. While some mods are jam packed with newly developed and designed assets all of which surely deserve some level of protection if that's what the author wants. I think another reason why Nexus is so tightly controlled as a community is to avoid duplication, confusion and diverging mods.
I guess this is a community problem more than a technology one, so I don't really have any solutions to offer except to try and encourage modders to be more free with their releases. On the same token, maybe there should be more clear ways for the community to have collaborative control over mods and patches.
I understand what you mean, some original creation needs protection if the author wants it, but this is not like a movie, the modders can demand money so the only protection they should get is crediting them for their work, why copy-right should protect stuff like "only download this file(that is not 100% original since is a derivative from Sky rim proprietary stuff) from this website" , or "do not make it easy for users to install my mod by making a mod pack" or "don't touch my mod , not fixes allowed, even if I am gone".
There are cases with mods that are broken now because of updates and because the author is not around to give their permissions the community can't put a fixed version up, they need to use convoluted steps to patch the original mod.
Would be great if modders would be inspired by programming open source/free software communities where at this moment you are allowed to fork and fix things, package/build for new platforms, mirror things on different websites.
Bethesda could fix this for the new game by putting in the license of the Creation Kit and tools the clause that your creation can't have restrictions, anyone can remix it if they provide credits and respect the Bethesda ToS.
The simplest reason that Nexus is 'bad' is that it throttles free user downloads, so you may spend hours downloading a large mod at 2MB/s. There's nothing wrong with a site like Nexus, but Nexus specifically is very annoying to use.
And to add before someone will say that we should not expect free stuff, it will not be legal to mirror most of the mods because the modders don't allow it (Even with disclaimer, even if they abandoned it, even if Nexus is down or evil)
Under this same logic, some of these mods wouldn’t exist. Games that have mod support usually only go so far. This goes a bit beyond that. Nexus as a site, a collection of mods that can be searched, is great. Nexus as a service, throttled downloads, timed ad pages forcing you to see an ad for revenue, sucks, but is necessary for them to keep it going.
The argument that a mod can only be downloaded from Nexus is a courtesy and not anything the mod authors can enforce. Likewise, you can just download the zip from GitHub and build. There’s no real control the authors can do to make sure their mod is downloaded from nexus. Hosting it anywhere else may be against the mod authors wishes but it won’t stop people from hosting the installer/archive.
This is a mod, a modification using Bethesda tools and assets, the purpose of those tools is not for someone to make money or increase a star counter on a specific website, putting restrictions on mods is IMO against the modding tools and ecosystems implied terms, IMO Bethesda need to update their ToS for next game to ensure sharing and remixing with credits is allowed. It would filter out some modders but would improve things for the players and the rest of the modders(less drama, less wasted time, no more attacking creators in real life because you think they used your asset/code)
The false belief is that the mod community follows/should follow FS philosophy just because most of their produce is free. Why should they? The products they are modding are also closed source for profit endeavours. When a team pours so much time in a project, it's an understandable expectation that (when becoming popular) they could profit the same way the original game did (once copyright issues were cleared). Lots of mods could break out and be either sold as new games, the original studios endorsed them or straight up hire mod developers. Open sourcing would make that difficult, as it would play against the copyright/for profit angle.
It is not that easy, you can't just 1 click install, The corect way is
1 read each mod description, recent comments and bugs
2 install it exactly as described
3 always test, start the game teleport around
4 repeat
The issue is mods can conflict, and this conflicts cause crashes and most of the time there is no clue who is at fault, debugging crashes is very time consuming, try to Google "Skyrim CTD" you will see how many hours, energy and peace was lost because of this.
This new Collection feature is an attempt to automate some of this steps, it is an improvement but is not the correct solution.
It also does not solve the issue where some old mod has a bug but is illegal for me to publish a fixed version, at most I might be able to create a patch then create a list of instructions on how to get the original mod and patch it.
Reading some comment chains makes you doubt the average users reading comprehension... This was all said in the first comment.
The point is that the users likely don't want to only add one addon, but several.
It's not permissable to create addon packs as a compilation of a known working combination. Nexus does have something that lets you install multiple add-ons like a package manager but few exists, because it doesn't work well enough if adjustments are necessary
> Reading some comment chains makes you doubt the average users reading comprehension...
Or maybe those users just think you’re wrong?
AFAIK most people use a package manager to install multiple mods and it works just fine in most cases.
In my opinion being able to install mods individually is much preferable to mod packs since you don’t have to add a bunch of stuff you don’t want and don’t have to wait for the pack compiler to update all the individual mods etc.
Let's go and ask on reddit for skyrim modding community how many hours people waste setting up and debugging mods? Or tell me how many hours someone that is new to modding needs to spend understanding everything before he can manually install whatever mod combinations he wants?
There are many concepts, plugins, scripts, load order, meshes, textures, ENB, patches, SKSE .dll files, SKSE loader and the address library, version issues etc.
Maybe you never tried Minecraft modded, it is easy for new people to get started and you still have all the options for installing mods one by one.
In my opinion this is backwards. Modders use Nexus for consistency, version control, and it trivializes mod management with one of the mod managers that works so well with Nexus.
Do you want to see the reality? Let's gpo to skyrim modding reddit and ask (without flaming) How many hours people spent on setting up mods, reading, downloading, installing, testing, debugging, reinstalling, restarting the game play from zero again.
This could be fixed with "distributions" one big file download one install but keep the tools for people who want the options to customize. But packs are not "legal" and the just recent created collection feature is still buggy. The issue is with the licenses the modders use and the restrictions they put, not the website , I think the website people would want to fix this but they can't.
I've spent more hours modding Morrowind, Skyrim, and the Fallouts than I did playing the games. About 80% of that time is debugging various combinations of USER-GENERATED mods that would reveal bugs Bethesda has certainly worked to sweep under the rug.
But that's not a failure. It's not some packaging problem that has persisted because of narcissism. I ENJOYED that time, getting to play with the very concept of the game in addition to playing the game itself.
The Nexus mods community is a godsend to a world that was so disjoint and chaotic, most people thought modding a game was just an urban legend. Thanks to Nexusmods, nontechnical players could mod their games with a single click on a website -- They created a mod management system on top of a game that didn't care to think of it -- and you're upset about it?
Contrary to your narrative, the modding community is filled with love and is built on sharing -- far moreso than the open source community. That you could see it as the opposite really just shows you've missed the history of just how far it's come -- all the while, being little more than a curiosity for a fraction of the gaming community.
The same is true for most other people. In the Free Software community the efforts of an individual that is willing to contribute back to the community would mean that the (current) issue would be forever solved.
I understand that you enjoyed that time, I did too. We're both on "Hacker" News after all. But the utility of that time multiplied by the scale of the community means that less effort went back to community contributions.
Don't you think it can be done better?
I am not against Nexus,I don't care about the drama in that community, the issue as you said is there are a ton of issues caused by installing mods one by one, the recent feature called "collection" is a hack on top of the old stuff , I don't hate collections - I think it can be done better if the modders would allow creating mod packs.
I am proposing something similar to Linux distributions, you could start from a minimal install Linux install and install exactly what you want , or you could download some random script that install stuff one by one from a website, or genius idea have distributions like Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Ubuntu Stuio, Mint, Ubuntu Crhistian and Satanic editions and if I don't have time I install the distro that matches my needs and has a community.
I tried a collection of mods and it crashed for me, it is impossible to debug stuff when you start with a big collection and a beta software mod manager and a game like Syrim that updates a lot lately.
Why can’t you publish the random script for nexus mods? If the issue is repacking/collections depriving the original mod authors of credit then a script that just tells nexus which ones to install and then patches any issues should be spiritually allowable, no? Linux distros have entire websites and communities of their own. No one is stopping you from building your own repackaged mod collection and associated website and offering such a service to users… you just cant do it one nexus because they don't want meta packages. Also FYI when Debian packages don’t work together the package maintainers and devs fix the issue. They don’t go create a new package that repacks the other packages and fixes the minor issue. It sounds more like the frustration is stemming from participating in a community of kids who spent a long weekend modding a game, published it on nexus and have since moved on. Happens in open source too to some extent. When this happens people start new projects or take over ownership. Not repackage “collections” of old defunct projects and make then work together…
I don't think you understand software development and architecture underlying all these distinct games. Basically you complain all over this discussion just about anything mods and community mean, expecting to be given 100% working game with unlimited amount of mods on top of each other, for free, consistently, across all official releases, with unlimited support forever.
That's an impossible task to put it lightly, especially if folks do it just because they love the game and see its potential beyond current limitations, but otherwise have real life to live. Exactly kind of user that's so demotivating to modders actually doing the work.
Comparing to Linux is ridiculous - its a single software thats here for 50+years (if I count where it all started), and various commercial companies + hobbyists invested tens of millions of man-days to get it into current state.
You realize that if you are so unhappy with anything communities have done, you can still play vanilla game just like all consoles have it?
It's always surprised me that game mods tend to be developed behind closed doors. Why don't they follow common open source development processes? Is there a cultural or perhaps technical reason why open development doesn't work for mods?
You're creating, but your creation is totally dependent on the copyrighted work of someone else, and usually can't even be seen without it. "derivative works" bite that way.
The audience has already paid for the base game and there's not likely to be ways they can donate to you even if they wanted to. This is being worked on but still not quite there yet. Lots of the games customers feel they've paid enough already; which adds tot he usual "entitled user" problems.
People making mods tend to be non programmers passionate about an idea they had and wanting to make it happen even if they have to learn new things and extend themselves beyond their comfort zone. The social aspects of software development that encourage FOSS structures haven't occurred to them yet. Many will feel they're not "real" developers, this isn't "real" software, and thus those concerns don't apply to them or their work.
Since having a "mod community" is popular, many game publishers want to have one. They often have no idea how to foster a community and allow their inner demons to come out in their efforts to do so. If a mod scene has politics before the game is released, bail.
This is not true, most mods are not open source, most mods created by developers might be though, usually this will mention that they are open , might even have "open" in their name and most of the time are a reaction to some shitty modder that does not accept contributions.
Maybe because games as a genre are really different from the tools most open source communities are centered around? Games contain a lot of art (subjective, made by a few/single persons), lot of authority is needed to hold it together, and the product is mostly not something to be refined for years but a one-big-release affair which is would only be used/played with for a limited time. The same way how you couldn't open source a poem or a book - the most you can do is be very community-based, like how most modders - akin to indie game developers - do. Are there any major open source game development besides maybe OpenTTD or Spring (which are more like frameworks and less of a games themselves)?
Even in more open modding communities (like Minecraft) where these kinds of limitations are less common, it's really strange to me that most mods are not open source. By nature, mods can usually not be monetized in any way (without attracting the game publisher's army of lawyers) and are often developed by one person in their spare time (unsurprisingly leading to burnout and abandoned projects). So if you know you'll never make any money from it and that your time to work on it is very limited, why not open it up to contributions? Or at the very least, once you stop maintaining it for whatever reason, why not let others continue where you left off?
Many game EULAs explicitly disallow paid mods, but I haven't seen any specifically mention broader licensing.
Even without that, however, mods are a grey area in copyright law. Publishers tend to let mods exist because they bring publicity to the game, but when modders start making money, they usually want a cut at best or sue and shut them down at worst.
You can install modpacks using a tool called Wabbajaack (https://www.wabbajack.org/) which downloads the mods from nexus (subscription required) and it’s an one-click install. I’m using it to play the Wildlander mod pack which is fantastic.
I installed a Fallout 4 VR mod pack using wabbajack and the experience was not great. Wabbajack had a lot of difficulty downloading certain files along with various other bugginess. Wabbajack wasn't able to automate much of the installation process so the mod pack had an installation instructions Google doc which was dozens of pages long. After spending a few hours following the installation instructions meticulously (twice), it didn't work. Weird bugs and game crashes. Couldn't get through character creation.
I would've much preferred if I could just download a single rar file containing every mod already installed patched and configured by the mod pack author in a known working state. Stick it on the nexus and have it automatically increment the download counts of the component mods by one or whatever.
This tools are a complexity thing , I tried Vortex and did not had good results for me. Why not have the collection in a big installer, then when you install it increase the download counter for all mods , maybe ncrease the endorments for all mods if you like the pack(it might cause drama though).
From sibling: "I am proposing something similar to Linux distributions, you could start from a minimal install Linux install and install exactly what you want , or you could download some random script that install stuff one by one from a website, or genius idea have distributions like Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Ubuntu Stuio, Mint, Ubuntu Crhistian and Satanic editions and if I don't have time I install the distro that matches my needs and has a community."
It seems like you feel strongly about this. You should make this solution.
Thing is that distro packages rarely conflict with one another, and when they do they're produced by a single organization who has processes to manage the conflicts.
Mods are very often hooking the same functions or editing the same files, so you need patches for many combinations of mods. Mods are usually created by single authors who stop playing the game and there's no organization to take over maintenance or coordinate anything.
vortex was never a good tool to start with (compared to MO2) and their collections are way subpar to WJ. So don't let you convince yourself just because Vortex is bad, WJ also has to be.
While the modding restrictions are bemusing to me as well coming from open source software, the introduction of Wabbajack a couple years ago greatly streamlined things so that you had one curated install that could encompass hundreds of mods. Collections as I understand is Nexus' take on the same idea.
When I used to mod morrowind and oblivion, there was another big site which I forget the name of.
I think nexus bought them in the end which I did not enjoy because I always thought nexus was annoying wrt making an account etc.
Some amazing mods out there though. DarkNuts greater dwemer ruins was one of the greatest experiences I’ve had in a video game and should ideally have been incorporated as an extended TES 3 goty, licensing etc aside. Tamriel rebuilt was mind blowing too.
It’s free under 1 GB, but I don’t know why you expect anyone to do free hosting with the sizes mods can get to (which nexusmods offsets with ads you probably don’t see with an Adblocker).
I don't expect free hosting, my original complaint is it is illegal to mirror a mod, so when Nexus will go down all mods will go down, we will have to share the mods in private because there is always some dude that will report you if you share a mod that dissipated in a forum. As long as the mirroring would give credits and link to authors preferred link then what is the issue ? (Nexus will not make money from ads and the modder will not get his counter increasses)
When I heard about this project, they were using Skyrim Script Extender code without permission[0] (and denying it) and made a lot of money from it (which the SKSE people feared could get them in legal trouble with Bethesda). I hope this has been rectified since?
SKSE is reverse engineering of Skyrim, with a heavy amount of code that can easily be argued to be infringement if Bethesda wanted to. This means that if anyone has a bone in ownership, it's Bethesda, not SKSE.
Don't release mods or tools without open licenses for content you don't own. It's a conflict of interest. By SKSE "fearing it could be used for profit" they are harming themselves. Open license, ignore it. You don't have any responsibilities of how it's used. That is in part why open licenses were created. Negation of liability.
That said, yes, the Skyrim together project is a money pit that last I checked is unmaintained yet makes thousands a month. With a moderation team that is none too friendly and doesn't take kindly to legitimate criticisms.
The Skyrim Together team has since disbanded and reformed a few times, with the team behind this project being different from the team of the previous project. The team behind Reborn does not accept donations. The Reborn project is a complete rewrite of the "Skyrim Together" project.
No offense but telling someone to go check a discord server is like saying "go google it" but you can't even use a search engine. It's worse than useless it's actively harmful to informing people. Provide details or don't bother getting involved.
I'm sorry but the modding community has worked from a passion for many, many years supported by platforms like Patreon. It's going to devolve into paid DLC if publishers start monetizing mods. A microtransaction modding community is not what I would want nor would its historically been.
Tilted Online came along just fine with financial support from the community. That financial support was not mandatory.
For those of us who don’t get so deep into modding that we follow a Patreon, having a straightforward way to pay modders for their time seems nice.
Unfortunately when these things become marketplaces it seems like incentives shift and they quickly fill up with shovelware skins and texture mods. The weird and creative things get buried.
Really awesome to see a large project like this using xmake as the build system, it is incredibly underrated in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing this, going to install and play with the wife tomorrow. Have been having tons of fun with the Elden Ring Seamless Coop mod released just a few weeks ago, serendipitous timing on this mod.
I've played it for some 30 hours together with my much younger brother-in-law at the beginning of the pandemic, and despite (and sometimes even because of) the glitches involved, we had a great time.
I think it would be a mistake to go in and expect (or demand) a perfectly polished experience. That they even managed to retrofit a multiplayer mode onto a strictly single player game is a completely mind-blowing achievement in my book - esp. given how well it works, all things considered.
Just as a note to other readers, this mod in particular "Reborn" is a completely different beast from the one you may have played back in 2020. The team from Tilted Phoques disbanded and reformed a few times, specially after some big controversies with SKSE that have been cited by other commenters.
This version "Reborn" is a complete rewrite of "Skyrim Together" which was available then shortly abandoned back in 2019/2020.
The team here has done a mind-blowing job, and this release in particular is extremely stable for what turning a singleplayer game into a multiplayer game is!
Nice! That reminds me of my efforts to add multiplayer functionality to Fallout 3 (which basically used a previous generation of the Skyrim engine) about a decade ago:
The effect is that a lot of people wasted their time modding their game , and this process is very time consuming(reading each mod instructions carefully, reading the bug reports and posts, executing the steps, starting the game and testing it) and modding is very error prone , some weird bug can trigger late in the game and ruing everything, disabling a mod can cause problems too , finding the cause of a crash is also very time consuming and maybe impossible.
In other games you have the concept of a mod pack (is a bit like a distro) but this is not possible with majority of this Skyrim mods, the Nexus website invented a concept of Collection that is a complex process that might work but has best results if you pay a subscriptions.
Anyway the recent events in open source community made me thingk abut Skyrim community, if Open Source projects with a big downloads or star counter get some money or some badges the developers might fall in the trap of Skyrim moders and wanting to bump their counters will restrict their distribution, I am afraid we will see licenses with restrictions like MIT + GitHub restriction where you can use the code only if you downloaded it from GitHub and from this specific repo(no forks or re hosting allowed). This seems impossible now but as we see in my example with this Skyrim community it will happen slowly.
There are open source and/or non restricted Skryum mod and I think most of this ones are inspired by Free Software philosophy.