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Why is Bitcoin losing the dark-net markets? (wildsnow2d9.substack.com)
49 points by yamrzou on May 29, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 37 comments



Privacy, like encryption, really needs to be convenient to be effective at scale.

While you certainly can achieve good enough privacy with Bitcoin, it's cumbersome as you need to jump through several hoops and it'd rady to make a single mistake that makes it all moot.

That's why all these opt-in solutions are doomed to failure, and the best (and only) solution is privacy-by-default like Monero does.

And the auther is correct that Bitcoin's culture is the problem, as the Bitcoin community will never hardfork to enforce privacy in this manner, so Bitcoin will never regain adoption on dark-net markets.


would it be accurate to say due to design shortcomings both in security and transaction processing, bitcoin shouldn’t be the top cryptocurrency in the next 5-10 years?


Technically Bitcoin has already been surpassed.

But "top cryptocurrency" generally refers to the marketcap, which is almost entirely speculation driven, and speculation doesn't seem to care much about fundamentals. Just look at what other crap people speculate heavily in...

So your guess is as good as mine on how long it will take for reality to catch up with Bitcoin.


I was under the impression that Bitcoin has remained dominant because most other coins are affected by the underlying price of BTC.

Anything crypto I see most regular people doing is basically... USD -> USDT (Tether), and then USDT -> USD

I guess that bypasses BTC, but has a heavy focus on fiat.

Are we still in the days where... if BTC goes down, ETH goes down?


IMO, yes. Not necessarily because it has deficiencies, but because it is not trying to progress and move things forward and the community consensus mechanism is broken.


Bitcoin will always be there as the basis of everything else.

It proves by staying relevant for the duration of the time it exists and everything else is experimentation on top of a working concept.

Think it as a network layer as in Bitcoin being the IP protocol that just needs to be boring to be stable.


> Bitcoin will always be there as the basis of everything else.

This is already disproven by the claims of the article, where Monero is outcompeting Bitcoin due to Bitcoin's traceability.

And privacy-by-default cannot be added on top of Bitcoin, it just cannot be done.

This idea that Bitcoin will succeed as a boring base layer, and everything will be built on top, is just a lie people tell themselves.


Yeah and that sucks because dark nets are really the best use of crypto


Maybe it sucks for Bitcoin, because it is becoming a little less relevant, but privacy coins are clearly the best fit for darknet markets.

To me, Bitcoin is already commoditized. Wallstreet is already using it. It would be unreasonable to expect darknet markets to use the same system, especially when it makes privacy hard.


Is it? Haven't used Dark Net Markets in a while but I just logged onto the largest market according to Dread, and it looks like Bitcoin is not just widely accepted but the market default currency.


> but I just logged onto the largest market according to Dread, and it looks like Bitcoin is not just widely accepted but the market default currency

DPR lives on? Well, the legend played out how it was intended to.


Dread is a Reddit clone specifically for Dark Net Markets. It was created just before Reddit banned the DarkNetMarkets subreddit.


> Dread is a Reddit clone specifically for Dark Net Markets. It was created just before Reddit banned the DarkNetMarkets subreddit.

Oh, huh... that's less interesting, I still cannot believe people have such horrible OPSEC that they'd use reddit like platform to talk about DNM, take that to TOR accessible only sites where you have some level of security.

You're giving LE all the info they need to make cases and seize funds.

Edit: That is exactly what it is [0].

0: https://darknetlive.com/forums/dread/


> take that to TOR accessible only sites where you have some level of security.

Could be accessing reddit through tor+VPN.


I am surprised no one mentioned that it is possible to trace bitcoin. To me, that is the biggest reason for its use declining in the "dart-net" (tm). (edit, just saw someone mentioned tracing already)

To me, I still equate bitcoin and others to a ponzi scheme, but this article make me wonder if its real value depends upon its use for illegal activities. If use in these activities drop, I can see large drops in bitcoin value.


> I am surprised no one mentioned that it is possible to trace bitcoin.

The many ways to CoinJoin that the article covers address just that. (Just saying for completeness.)

> this article make me wonder if its real value depends upon its use for illegal activities

Bitcoin has many values to many people. Speculation was most often at the top, money laundering / unsanctioned money transfers, drug trade, trafficking and similar non-speculative, criminal uses second. With the recent changes, speculation may come to have a smaller share than before, but still significant. Since the dream of STONKS was always what made the general population condone crypto currencies, maybe we’ll see a decline in support in western societies. At least, with the heavy AML effort in the EU, it could go that way. I sense that Asia is not going that way soon. From what I’ve read (I’m not in Asia), it is as hyped as it ever was. I suspect it fits with gambling cultures.


> I am surprised no one mentioned that it is possible to trace bitcoin

You mean, other than the fact that that's what the whole blog post is about? :-)


What's the OP's thought on Mimble Wimble as recently implemented on a Scrypt based POW chain.


MW hides amounts and addresses [1], but not the transaction graph. However, MW can be extended with a coinswap protocol [2] that obscures the tx graph as well, giving pretty good privacy, while improving scalability. Also see this comparison of 3 blockchains [3].

[1] https://forum.grin.mw/t/scalability-vs-privacy-chart

[2] https://forum.grin.mw/t/mimblewimble-coinswap-proposal

[3] https://phyro.github.io/grinvestigation/why_grin.html


Funny enough: the trust in darknet comes from customer ratings, seller deposit and moderators.

Not from Bitcoin.

A great example on why 'trust' only works for everything inside the Blockchain only.


> A great example on why 'trust' only works for everything inside the Blockchain only.

Having a “trustless” component at the core of a Blockchain has made us all re-examine the places where we deeply rely on trust for real interaction. It is ironic how “trustless” technology is so apt for scamming if you can trigger peoples desire for wealth at the same time. “You don’t have to trust me” was always a great bait for a victim who takes trust for granted. You just need to say high numbers and people will wire money to you.


Within less than 2 years monero will have taken over darknet. Then itll go mainstream.


Definitely heard this 2 years ago, 4 years ago, 6 years go and even 8 years ago.

I think it’ll take a lot longer than you/we think.


Do you hold Monero?


Because Bitcoin is not 'anonymous' and it is traceable and it never guaranteed privacy features in its whitepaper unlike privacy coins like Monero, MobileCoin, Grin and Zcash?


Did you read the article?


I hope you read the guidelines: [0]

   Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


"okay"


And now Litecoin with MWEB! (NB: LTC enabled privacy support last week).


What's the 411 on MimbleWimble?


If you're interested in a non-technical explanation of Mimblewimble, I tried to explain it through pictures here https://phyro.github.io/what-is-grin/mimblewimble.html


I read the whole thing, thanks for sharing.

One thing I didn’t understand… if the kernel set grows for every new utxo, then is it possible to match a previous utxo with a newly added utxo by repeatedly trying kernels until you find the one that works for the pair?


every transaction comes with one (or sometimes multiple) kernels. it also comes with a scalar offset, that gets summed when merging transactions together, making it impossible invert the merging (unless you saw the original txs, e.g. in the mempool).


does anyone here speak jive?


Hey home', I can dig it. Know ain't gonna lay no mo' big rap up on you, man!


I genuinely thought this was a joke language invented for "Airplane!". Had no idea it was real


boppa'tron




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