I think our narcissism is largely a product of a culture obsessed with individual identity, individual success and ego. One of the best pieces I ever read on HN was by a Shopify engineer just a month ago about why he serves in the British Yeomanry. (https://chrisseaton.com/army/)
"Being in the Army also grounds me in reality and in my community. The tech world can be a relatively narrow cross-section of society. When I spend time with the Army I interact with the full spectrum of my local community. My squadron has nurses, carpenters, architects, police officers, unemployed people, veterinarians, warehouse workers, tree surgeons, railway engineers, pilots, firefighters. I get to interact with people from a variety of backgrounds, a variety of economic situations, with a variety of outlooks[...] More than just interacting with a cross-section of society, it means building a very high level of trust and depending on each other. When we’re in the field there’s absolutely nowhere to hide, with no privacy and no time-off, and you’ll need to manage to get along. There’s a big taboo of being ‘jack’ and not looking after each other or serving yourself before others."
I had a similar experience when I had to do military service. I don't think there's a better cure for narcissism than getting out of your head and comfort zone, doing something for and with other people in the real world. We should remember where the word 'narcissism' comes from. From Narcissus staring into his own reflection. So sitting in your room, reflecting on how totally not narcissistic you are is never going to be a solution.
I hate pathologizing, I whine a lot about it on HN, but for some people, narcissism is pathological and no amount of service towards others will give them perspective.
I once knew a self-described narcissist who was proud of the fact. At one point, doing volunteer work benefited them, possibly for college credit or something, I forget.
Their lesson from serving in a soup kitchen? "The homeless people didn't thank me enough, they're all so greedy and should be more thankful that I'm giving them food instead of doing something better with my time."
The service (and traditional community) solution to narcissism doesn't seem to based on the expectation that they'll change by doing that service; but rather having the circumstances highlight that behavior and solving the narcissism problem in the community either by kicking the narcissists out or by forcing them to change with credible threats of violence for continuing such behavior.
Think there is also a certain level of self-policing that happens in the military as well, which does not exactly reward those high in ego/self-centered behavior.
One thing I appreciate about my friends from the military, over a decade later even, is I can trust they’ll call me out when I deserve it (and vice versa).
Is there any kind of parallel for this kind of experience. I’ve always thought the rigidity and discipline of military life would suit me well. This is another reason why I would love to join up. I have a family and a career now though and joining up would be a selfish decision
There are weird pseudo-bootcamps that exist in the US that you can sign up for, but I imagine they're just as unregulated and harmful as "wilderness therapy" companies are.
Project Appleseed[1] is reputable, but it’s mainly marksmanship and American history, not playing soldier in the woods.
I’d be very cautious about joining any kind of “militia” because even though there probably are well intentioned people that want to serve their communities, most are honeypots full of law enforcement and informants.
I think there may be some state militias still around that aren’t national guard too. I vaguely recall something about Florida reviving its militia.
For what it’s worth, I think the exact opposite. A person that believes in God will see that their life is special, yes, but they will also see that life in general is special. In my opinion, this results in a person with less of an ego than a secular individual that must reckon their path towards a meaningful life all on their own.
And I’m more in the latter group than the former.
Admittedly, I do see how the visibility of outspoken Christians would keep you from my perspective. This is a messaging challenge with personal faith that I think has yet to be fully reckoned with, in fact.
I'd have thought the more obvious alternative is that belief in God has no impact on innate narcisstic tendencies, but that the nature of individuals' belief in their relationship with God gets shaped by their narcissistic tendencies or lack thereof.
(and some secular belief systems are much more dismissive of how "special" individuals are relative to groups and systems and processes, though narcissists can still try to find ways to be the best Communist, or one of the few temporary agglomerations of matter determined to be smart enough to acknowledge hard determinism!)
In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. I was just watching a clip of Martin Scorsese talking about how he grapples with this in his films. Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven. He talks about struggling with the notion that these people that inflicted so much pain would be given their eternal reward, alongside those who were good, just for going through the motions.
> In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven.
This is false. Asking is not enough. Asking is one part of the observable, outward sign, but that (and the whole associated rite) is less important than the spiritual conversion which is required. (The rite is “normatively” required, but the conversion is “absolutely” required.)
> Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven.
If they outwardly observe the rites without inward spiritual conversion, the doctrine of the Church is that they absolutely will not be forgiven. To the extent that there may have ever been doubt that this was the doctrine (and certainly complaints about at least the implication that it was not were central in the Protestant Reformation), it was unequivocally articulated in the Council of Trent, so the room for doubt on it has been closed for at a minimum nearly half a millennium.
Scorsese is certainly a great filmmaker, but if your report is accurate, he’s not very well informed on Catholic theology, with an attitude that reflects what one might expect of someone who has simply witnessed the rites without any education about their meaning.
well one problem is that as human beings we are not able to judge if someone is truly seeking forgiveness for their actions or just pretending to.
only god can do that.
therefore as humans we must assume that they are genuine and leave it to god to deliver the actual judgment.
i am not familiar with martin scorsese, so i don't know why he doesn't recognize that difference. i am also not familiar enough with the bible or catholicism to know why that difference is not more clear in their teachings.
It's entirely possible to have rewarding & meaningful interactions with narcissistic people. Here's my process.
First, realize you're not so much better. Don't expect too much.
Next, don't insult them. Be aware of power games; don't get confused. Be straightforward.
Generally avoid putting yourself in a situation where you need something from them. If they offer a favor, accept it (if you want) and say "thank you".
Finally, don't try to fix them. Be simple. Offer them your time, and not much else.
You'd be surprised at how many narcissists are relieved and happy to meet someone who behaves in this way.
Right, don't enter partner agreements with them, don't develop any kind of attachment to them, don't let them close, don't let them get too familiar with you (familiarity breeds their contempt) etc.
One foot out the door and don't let them close to anything that you would be upset with them breaking (they never apologize or take responsibility so just factor in how much bad they can do to you) and you'll be fine, they can even be an asset to the community and volunteer in exchange for kudos in the right circumstances.
Yeah, the problem w/ this theory is that they're still narcissists. You can do all the above and perhaps you'll succeed in convincing yourself you're having a "rewarding & meaningful interaction" ... but the "reward" and "meaning" for the narcissist is in what interacting with you does (and can be made to do) for them, especially and even ideally at the expense of you. It actually sounds a bit like the point of this post is to establish that you yourself are special for being able to get along with a narcissist -- which is exactly what they'd like you to be thinking and just sets you up even more so to be taken advantage of by them. For whatever it's worth.
Some narcissists understand the idea of mutually beneficial exchanges. If they do, you can trade with them. If they don't and are always angling for the advantage ("winning" discussions or negotiations) or pretend that all transactions are zero sum then go no-contact with them as much as possible.
I feel like there is a danger of going through life sizing up people as narcissists and being selective about who you reveal yourself to. I've definitely been guilty of that myself. It can create unnecessary stress and anxiety. Further, it strikes me as potentially encouraging use of the narcissist's tactics themselves, allegedly abhorrent as they are; one can just as easily re-brand your "no contact" as "silent treatment" and accuse you of being manipulative.
All that is to say ... Do what you want in who you choose to associate with, and it's ok to not let some people get too close. But try to avoid doing so in a judgemental, stigmatizing, labelling, or aggressive way. Keep these things lightly and open room for the idea that it's more of a simple misunderstanding rather than existential conflict. And don't stress about it too much.
I usually give people two or three chances to cooperate normally, and also will listen if they initiate a change in themselves later on that seems trustworthy.
I never know for sure whether someone suffers from narcissistic personality disorder or other dark triad traits so I rarely label them; but I can gauge the effect of their actions on me and that's the ultimate metric that matters. Even people with good intentions may produce hurtful and counterproductive actions and be unwilling or unable to learn and grow; there's no need to label or stigmatize them but I will, as you say, choose who I associate with to better my own life. It's helpful to remember that other adults are not owed time and attention; they are responsible for finding their own support networks to meet their needs in a mutually agreeable way. Obviously in a workplace no-contact isn't possible entirely but greyrocking works there.
It's just helpful to recognize the narcissistic traits and manipulative tactics that people sometimes use and respond appropriately to the tactics by enforcing boundaries, communicating my limits, refusing to get emotionally entangled, etc. Pretty much what standard therapy teaches.
I agree with all this, except for offering them your time. If you're not careful a narcissist will waste all your time and attention for self-validation (or perhaps other malicious purposes, depending on the type of narcissist). At that point you're just feeding the beast and reinforcing their expectation that they can demand limitless time and attention from people for their own vain needs. They will teach you to distrust yourself to suit their own inner narrative if they think you are challenging it.
Time and attention granted to narcissists needs to be watched very closely. You're totally right that they need to be approached with empathy, and you don't need to completely ignore them or treat them as pariahs. However it's OK to disengage with them when you're being exploited for their self-validation.
Unfortunately, I've really recently come to the realization that a longtime friend of mine has narcissistic traits, I didn't really realize it until another mutual friend started to get frustrated in the same way that I had been from time to time. Then I realized that my intuition was right, and how much the friendship had turned toxic because of how much it caused me to doubt myself, in service of their ego.
Since I had been giving them so much time and attention while trying to be a good friend, I realized that they were making me doubt myself so they never had to reflect on themselves or have their way of thinking challenged. They're not a bad person and I think it comes down to insecurities, but the past couple weeks that I'm actively tuning them out when things cease to be a conversation, and rather them just talking at me with no way to get a word in edgewise (sometimes for up to an hour at a time!), telling me the exact same story they just told me yesterday, or even a few hours ago, just to hear themself talk.
Since I started creating boundaries like that I have a lot more energy and focus for myself since I realized that it had convinced me to care about propping up their self-image rather than taking care of my own needs.
It's actually a fascinating experience being in the presence of a narcissist for a while. It truly is a different kernel/OS that their mind is running. But exactly -- everyone in such a situation does and will reach this conclusion eventually.
I don't find it fascinating, they're actually quite simplistic, you'll find that they see the world through the eyes of a selfish toddler, where they are perfect, everything is about them and anything they don't like is everyone else's fault. They'll act like the fact that their actions may have consequences that they don't like is somehow the gravest injustice in the world. It's both incredibly boring and exhausting at the same time.
I appreciate the tips (really) but the gist of it sounds awfully close to "just treat them like a baby and pamper them". Could work if you _really_ need this person, but doesn't sound... healthy?
No. The point is to have clear boundaries. In fact, "treat them like a baby and pamper them" is quite the opposite of the advice
Don't offer to help them. If they ask for help, only agree if not expecting anything in return. Or be clear about what you'll want in return. Everyone is different: they may react negatively to rejection, which is it's own problem, others may not hold a grudge
Be straightforward: call them out on their behavior, preferably privately to avoid power games. Let them know the boundaries which if crossed you'll disengage from them over
Dealing with narcissist is relatively straightforward - it's the dark triad types you need to watch out for. They will try to ruin your life just for the fun/sport of it.
I would not say this is the end all be all of interacting with narcissists but I agree that it is entirely possible to have meaningful interactions with them.
I would probably go farther and say that generally we should probably apply some of this type of logic to all the relationships in our lives - expectations should always be realistically tailored to the individual within reason.
Even if this is your preferred way of dealing with them, I don't think it's good for general advice. In my experience narcissists tend to be manipulative, and that any boundaries you put forward are offensive.
> And that's the gist of it, if I don't have to, why would I ever interact with a narcissist again?
> To take a page from their book -- What's in it for me?
Not taking a page from their book (or being perceived to by others) is a pretty good reason actually... dividing people into categories based on initial pop-psychology analysis you've conducted of their visible traits to figure out whether they are deserving of further interactions with you is a pretty narcissistic trait itself. As is discounting all scenarios where anyone other than you has the power to act: a lot most people's regular interactions in life are with people others have chosen, and sometimes they actually have ability to help or even [independently of assumptions about their personality] actually deserve it themselves
People can be vain, volatile driven entirely by compliments and human beings... human beings that are helpful or funny even... sometimes more so because of their pathological need to impress. And even they're just boring boastful bullshitters with a sideline in snide remarks, if they're your friends friends and you're trying to exclude them, you're the one whose behaviour is going to be seen as more self-centred and toxic to the group.
Doesn't mean you have to date them, or trust them, and perfectly reasonable to avoid people whose extreme behaviour is dragging others down with them altogether (but lots of narcissists don't go that far, and lots of extremely destructive behaviour isn't narcissism). But there's plenty of value to learning to peacefully coexist with narcissists, unless you want to be the one perceieved as playing power games and dragging others down.
Does anybody else feel the hair on their neck rise when they hear accusations of narcissism? A few times in my life I've known people who tried to control me by accusing all of my other friends of being narcissists, telling me that I should stop being around them. I now believe that accusing other people of narcissism is one method employed by narcissists, so these sort of accusations now make me very nervous about the person making them.
Also it reminds me of the 'asshole' theory; that if you meet an asshole one day, you've simply met an asshole. But if you meet many assholes every day, it's probably you who's the asshole. Somebody who perceives many narcissists all over the place is somebody I'm wary of.
Yeah this is my first thought when I read this. Calling others narcissists is more often a red flag for the accuser than the accusee in my opinion.
Narcissism is a spectrum just like every other personality trait, not some binary thing that some people are and some people aren't. And you don't really want to be on either extreme of that spectrum in my opinion.
I think the term is often used to mean "someone who isn't giving me what I want so I'm going to pathologize my not liking them".
That being said, there are certainly people who are subjectively obnoxiously narcissistic and I'm sure in a clinical setting you find true outliers who are deeply pathological.
Yes. Abusers often claim to be the victim and turn people against their target. And abusers will often provoke victims, complicating the situation.
> A few times in my life I've known people who tried to control me
And you are aware of a red flag.
Another good tool -- narcissists (other manipulators, abusers) will use fear, obligation, and guilt to control people -- FOG. If you find yourself feeling those emotions around / because of certain people, investigate carefully as to why.
> Also it reminds me of the 'asshole' theory; that if you meet an asshole one day, you've simply met an asshole. But if you meet many assholes every day, it's probably you who's the asshole. Somebody who perceives many narcissists all over the place is somebody I'm wary of.
Witch hunts should be scrutinized as much as wolf-criers. Groups of people regularly dispense with rigor and independent thought when it comes to enforcing social consensus especially when such consensus is superstitiously predicated upon the need of a scapegoat.
You have an obligation to date me is the claim. I'm the "nice guy / good guy". (No, I am not obligated to date you.)
If you don't I will label and attack you as a narcissist, as "toxic" etc (that drives fear). (As soon as you start hearing this type of stuff - get out, because relationships depend on trust and someone looking to destroy you or making those kind of claims / threats is not someone to trust and are using fear and threats)
The folks who see this "all around" often have some of their own personal issues. I think one can by sympathetic to them, but be very cautious about a close personal relationship with them - drama and conflict.
My own experience is they are often searching for something (connection etc) because they struggle to find it. So they can get into heavy travel, sometimes drugs or more intense experience (desert raves etc) which provide a (temporary) feeling of connection without the hard work of ongoing community and relationship. I still see friends from high school and college. Is it easy? No. Is it worth it? Absolutely. Same with relationship (and marriage and kids). Easy? No. Worth it? For sure. And in that friend group, you can give each other a bit of a hard time for our personal failings - but it's never an attack like this (narcissism, your toxic etc). It's more like, there goes Joe, dine and dash again - with affection and an invite to the next hangout (and joe might need to get back for kids etc).
I feel the same. Because whenever I hear these accusations, part of me goes, "oh no, am I a narcissist? Am I one of those horrible people?" But then I take a step back and go, "wait. It feels like someone is trying to control the people around them with guilt."
So then I reject the concept entirely and instead ask another set of questions:
- Do you hurt people?
- Do you insist on dominating people's conversations?
- Do you take things from people?
- Do you steal credit?
- Are you mean?
- Do you display physical violence?
- Do you throw tantrums?
- Do you lie about other people?
No? Well, fine, that doesn't mean you're perfect -- we all sin -- but... is it really likely that you have some terrible behavioral pathology? I don't think so.
The problem is, this gets mixed with a bunch of other things that, as far as I can tell, are universal:
- Do you like to feel appreciated?
- Do you enjoy positive attention? (Well, only so much, actually.)
- Do you try to keep up appearances? Dress better when you're going out? Worry about embarrassment when public speaking?
Isn't all that just normal? I'd think it is! In fact, what happens if you reverse these? A person who gives no shit what other people think -- what motivates them? I just don't understand it. It's like considering a reptile. We're social creatures.
At some level --
Do you attack other people?
If the answer is no, you're probably ok.
And if you're throwing the word "narcissist" at people... doesn't that make you an attacker?
I think your whole self-reflection, while laudable, could reach the same conclusion much quicker from the very start:
> part of me goes, "oh no, am I a narcissist? Am I one of those horrible people?"
If you ever worry enough that you might be a narcissist that you are tempted to seriously explore the possibly, you are most definitely not a narcissist. That's not to say you are guaranteed to be free of fault, but being self-critical and feeling concerned about your own behaviour is incompatible with narcissism.
Generally there’s huge rewards for being a narcissist. Refusing to ever admit your wrong and instead gaslighting people around you works really well. People figure out the pattern, just shuffle them out of your life and add new people. I noticed that a few friends I grew up with developed this approach when they found it worked extremely well with women.
It works well as long as there is an abundance of people willing to stick around, which is when these people will develop this mindset. With a bit of luck they'll grow out of it once the environment no longer makes it beneficial, but many are too far gone by then.
It's part of why PUA circles (to stick with the dating example in the article) hammer "abundance mentality" so much. You don't have to deal with a person having a problem with you when, as you say, you can shuffle them out for someone else.
Unfortunately this means there's no incentive for them to change. Becoming a better person and having healthier relationships takes a lot of effort, and to them, they are giving up power (and becoming vulnerable) -- so why bother? And empathy for others will never be a motivator, here.
The show "Inventing Anna" is a perfect example of this. Charismatic narcissist gaslights everyone around her and anyone who doesn't plan along gets replaced with someone who will.
Depends on how deep they are into it. Some people with such traits can't keep down a job or even familial relationships without their ego getting in the way.
>A week later, I received a few ambiguous and regretful messages from her, which escalated to a phone call in which she sought guidance on her next date
The author needs to spend time identifying how people use tactics to assert and obtain power. Even if you don't want to use those tactics yourself, which is fine, your whole life will be better served by knowing how to deflect tactics others use to submit you (lowering your perceived value to others).
For some people, all they have is power games. They can't rely on abilities or genuine personality traits, so they have to rely on manipulating perceptions of themselves and others. Other people have the privilege of not needing to do that, so they never develop those manipulation instincts through practice. They get taken advantage of because they don't even see the games being played.
Imo, the sweet spot is not needing to manipulate others in order to have your intended effect on the world, but being able to do so to when it's required.
It took me far too long to understand that people played power games and would actively hurt my psychology to put themselves ahead. Very odd realization and rather sad. I grew up as an objective person who always tried to see both sides. An odd awakening to realize not everyone thought like me
I've had trouble recognizing and understanding narcissists, too. I'm sixty-five, and I can't recall anyone I knew in the first fifty years of my life who I realize now was a narcissist. In contrast, I recognize retrospectively many old friends and acquaintances who, I now know, must have been on the autism spectrum.
But in the last fifteen years, I have had to deal with four people who were narcissists, two through work and two in private life. Each case was very difficult.
Those four were from very different backgrounds--four different countries of origin, three different first languages, one had grown up poor, another was from a rich family. If narcissism is becoming more prevalent, my limited sample offers no clue about possible social causes.
Because if the teachers says "some people are bad", then the pupils will ask: who of us are bad?
Who of our parents are bad?
Who of the other teachers are bad?
If you say "none", you will likely get caught in a lie.
I think most kids figure out by themselves that many people are somewhat bad. It's mainly kids who are slightly/somewhat autistic who need help with this.
You don't have to say "some people are bad" but rather "some behaviors are bad or dangerous" - and teachers certainly can and should discuss bad or dangerous behavior to correct it and to recognize it in future. They already do so for behavior that is physically bad or dangerous, why not for behavior that's psychologically bad or dangerous?
Yeah I'm somewhat on the spectrum, but not so much. It really wasnt until I was in my 20s that narcissists matured and became capable of real damage. Like putting me down in front of women, trying to get me to quit a high paying job, etc.
Most people grew up with the same mentality, and manipulative people will exploit the benefit of the doubt they're given and will use your scruples against you.
Both this article and your comment sum-up what I have really been struggling with lately at work. I’ve never experienced such a narcissistic person and have had a hard time not only dealing with their behaviour, but identifying it for what it is in the first place.
Some tips from someone who has dealt with a few classic narcissists: don't argue with them. They do not reason the way you do. One-word answers are best. Pretend you are a very dull, boring person with no opinions when you are talking to them. Never raise your voice or get angry. They will try to use the silent treatment on you: ignore it. But it works very well on them too. They will never, in a million years, apologize. But if they apologize, they are only trying to manipulate you further because their fear of abandonment has been triggered by your body language and tone. Always remember they lie constantly. They don't know what the truth is anymore.
These are strategies and perspectives I've learned from having narcissistic family members. I hope it helps. The best thing you can do is just not deal with them at all, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
> spend time identifying how people use tactics to assert and obtain power
Other than just being aware and observant and learning through experience, are there any good resources for this? "Art of War" maybe? Something from fields like psychology or sociology?
The worst book I’ve ever read in my life (that made me lose almost all my faith in humanity) but describes how manipulative people behave is “The 48 laws of power”.
I wish I hadn’t read it, but at least I know.
I recommend reading some Taoist or Stoic books after to keep from becoming deeply depressed.
There are some good lessons in Art of War that I think are broadly applicable, particularly the admonishment against making others feel like they've been backed into a corner. Give people an out, some way to save face, and you can avoid a lot of drama.
I'd echo the 48 laws of power. It gives a good insight into the common power games. A sibling comment had a bad experience with it, I was fine with it, but YMMV
You cannot solve your narcissism through introspection. Introspection will only lead you to thinking you've found the answer, and stopping there so you don't have to change. "I've figured it out, I know why I'm a narcissist," and then stopping there.
People can't tell you how to stop being a narcissist. If someone tells you exactly what to do, you'll do that thing, and then stop. "I'm doing that thing now, so I'm not a narcissist!"
Your mind will simulate the most awful pain imaginable just to protect against changing your behaviour. You think your suffering is making you a good person, that by looking at the painful parts of your mind you are no longer a narcissist, but you're at the same place as you were before. You haven't changed your behaviour at all.
This is a specific example of a more general critique of therapy, or at least, classical psycho-analytics. It conflates that moment of insight (the "breakthrough") with healing, similar to how making a big poop is hard work, but really satisfying.
The power of this introspective moment of insight has an interesting parallel with the similar concept of catharsis. However, catharsis is outward focussed. It is through the careful absorption of art (e.g. a stage play in antiquity), which is fiction, and divorced from the self, that a healing release may occur.
So for the neurotics trying to avoid the trap you described, try channel that curiosity outward, direct it towards the minds of others, by paying careful attention to fiction. It won't change behavior per se, but at least will help with stepping out of oneself.
This sounds nice and plausible, but is it any better than any other psychological theory or therapy? Does it have any data behind it? How exactly are you defining and measuring "healing release", for example?
Or anything else you claimed, by the sounds, no more than therapy or classical psychoanalysis or anything else anyway. Stepping out of oneself, channel curiosity outward, healing releases, etc. All just sounds exactly like all the other snakeoil to me. Unscientific mumbo jumbo that barely even means anything.
> There you go again, thinking about yourself. Your impulse wasn't to say, "am I doing this to my kids?" or "how will I act differently?" It was to wonder about your own nature.
Worthy of note, TLP did often harp on the fact that his view of 'narcissism' as a cultural phenomenon (I think he called it a "generational pathology") is NOT the same as the DSM definition. People are fooled into thinking every narcissist is the person with a self-inflated ego (I inferred the same from the OP, "Some of them are good enough to fool Jersey Shore candidates, while others can reach high executive positions and, in some cases, potentially win a presidential election..."). But TLP's definition was closer to someone who is completely focused on controlling others' perception of them. This could include a person who projects himself as a meek victim, but hyper-focused on relaying that image to others.
Although, this does fit quite well too: "I don't want to be with someone who doesn't care to drink tap water."
Anyway, not saying you said it was the same as the DSM definition, just adding some perspective since I read a lot of TLP and naturally compared what I read in the OP to what I remember from TLP's blog.
> You think your suffering is making you a good person, that by looking at the painful parts of your mind you are no longer a narcissist, but you're at the same place as you were before. You haven't changed your behaviour at all.
This is what I'm going through with my partner right now. She went through a program that made her really evaluate her past and behavior. After the year program she thinks she is "fixed" and everyone else needs to live their life according to how she thinks is best.
It seems like an impossibility for her to even change 5%. If I could even get her to accept that she has a mental health problem that she needs to face.
My understanding is it's generally un-curable since it's such a deeply rooted and ingrained coping mechanism for the ego. Like an addiction. But if I had to guess, someone would probably have to deeply work on true self-compassion (a lot of narcissists are, internally, extremely self-critical, if I understand the condition correctly) and build back from near zero. Sounds really difficult.
It's intractable. There is no solution except teaching people how to identify and protect themselves from narcissists, or institutionalization.
People with narcissistic traits can work towards undoing the damage done to them; but, once you're at the level of a personality disorder it becomes more about coping with the inevitable and continuous fallout. Genetics, trauma, and childhood abuse all come together to create a shell of a human being who, motivated by self-preservation, exists only to consume, exhaust, and expel other human beings.
There are no evidenced treatments, and there is no saving them. They are not capable of changing -- if they were, they wouldn't be (by definition) narcissists. The best thing we can do is teach people to identify and protect themselves from these lost souls.
There's no incentive for them to change. If they can use people and then discard them for new supply, maintaining their power over people with manipulation and games -- then why change? Change would involve becoming vulnerable, giving up their means of power, and confronting their harmful actions.
1. A great many narcissistic children will label a classmate / neighbor an enemy somewhere between grades 6-8, and do everything in their power to destroy him.
Their popularity and talent for molding public opinion will help them, as will the understanding that no one else wants to be his next victim.
Unfortunately, I have seen this too often (the school psych told me it is a common trait for narcissists), and the effects on the victim are catastrophic.
2. As someone who runs a youth group, I know a family which is highly narcissist. It is very painful for me to watch them (they are children, so it is not personal, nor is it a threat). By the first kid, I mentioned something to the father, who turned on me personally and caused some days of heartache. By now, I just feel bad for them - and everyone who will ever be in contact with them. The school psychologist said that he cannot provide help without the parents OK, and the parents will never say OK.
I know of one. Many won't like it, though, because it involves flexing the muscles of the state. And at the end, I'm not sure the potential benefits outweigh the real risks.
Yes I am. In my view people with NPD probably should be isolated from society in the same way an irredeemable criminal should be; that is because narcissists will never stop harming people if left to their own devices. If it's possible to do this without causing too much harm to society or our concept of justice, then it should be done.
Thing is we already do this. The only step that would be novel would be allowing new inputs into the system.
We already institutionalize millions of people with mental disorders. When there's no focus on mental disorders and treatment that's where prisons come in, when there is a focus on mental disorder and treatment then mental hospitals come into the picture.
The sorting already happens. The differences would be in where do we begin intake, and where do we place people.
Would make sense to start with the ones in the positions to do the most harm then. Joe Biden, Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, congressional insider traders, the bankers, war profiteers, etc. Sounds good, I'm in.
> Following that dramedy, I packed my belongings and embarked on a nomadic lifestyle in which I lived in multiple co-living spaces and met a wide and authentic group of people.
Oookay, feels a bit "pot calling the kettle black" here, not really sure what the point of this article really was, other than to exclaim, "Narcissism exists!"
Yeah, reading through the first few paragraphs made me think: this is the sort of thing a clever writer puts together before revealing at the end the only narcissist is the person who believes their relationship broke down because of irredeeemable flaws in the other person alone, responded to encountering an impressive individual by furiously searching for gaps in their resume, and maintained an "almost-healthy" transactional relationship with a formerly popular friend as all that person's other relationships soured by constantly letting them have the "credit" for stuff until that person eventually confronted them...
But tbf to the author, who is presumably a real person and not a narcissist, I thought the second part was quite well written without that twist :)
The general point seems to be that "narcissism exists and is more common and a less clearly defined than the mirror-watching psychopath of popular perception", although perhaps that's a bit too nuanced for parts of the HN audience now furiously insisting that people exhibiting narcissistic traits, unlike people with other spectrum disorders, must be regarded as irredeemable and avoided at all costs...
yep, this person has bigger issues with themselves that others. Millions (Billions?) of other people seem to navigate the world without having to go to a "nomadic lifestyle in which I lived in multiple co-living spaces"... as if that is even a remotely possible option the vast amount of people out there in similar situations.
OP has problems, blames other, is entitled, needs to grow TF up
As someone with several narcissistic traits, the book "The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A Fuck" by Mark Manson was an eye-opener. It succinctly describes detrimental thought patterns that you might even not know you have, and gives examples of more productive mindsets.
Can recommend for anyone dealing with insecurities.
> Following that dramedy, I packed my belongings and embarked on a nomadic lifestyle in which I lived in multiple co-living spaces and met a wide and authentic group of people
Nomadic Goober Shocked That He Is The Perfect Prey For Narcissist Personality Types. More at 11
^ "poor me, and had to resort to living nomadic lifestyle in which I lived in multiple co-living spaces" cry me a river. OP needs to think harder about "am I the baddie?"
The impulse to "help" other people is noble. Except for those quotes around "help." This isn't about helping others so much as dealing with them. And that's toxic in itself.
Narcissus liked to stare into his lacuna. So harm reduction might be digging more lacunae. With enough reflective surfaces, Narcissus might have a "normal" life.
I've experienced environments where everyone constantly gets praise for the least little aspect of existing.
I am sad to say that I have had a significant dealings with a narcissist for years without being familiar with the term.
From my experience, the narcissist suffered some traumatic event, probably in ~early childhood, and somehow it caused them to become maladapted in the way they perceive the world and their role in it. I don't believe narcissism is caused by culture/society. Although, it anecdotally, I wonder if there is also a genetic factor.
Regardless of the cause, the person and their behavior are irrevocably damaged and the only way of dealing with them is not feeding them. Maintain extreme neutrality and disinterest and stay as far away as you can. All they do is harm, and they have no capability of ever taking accountability, it is simply beyond their comprehension. If you suggest that there is an issue, you will quickly find out that you are the issue, and the narcissist will get hard at work taking you apart, piece by piece, until there is nothing left of you.
The problem I have with articles like these (and discussions about narcissism in general) is that they often fail to classify or recognize that like many aspects of our psyche it is a spectrum of behaviours and beliefs. The extreme examples are of course shocking and easily derided - but on some level we need a healthy amount of narcissism in our lives.
When people label humans as narcissists or their behaviors as narcissistic (or socialist/fascist/sexist/etc), I mostly feel confused at what they mean and wish they would describe more specific behaviors, and ideally, how they themselves were feeling in response to those behaviors. I think we sometimes use such labels as shortcuts and assume others know what we mean, and yet by abstracting so much, we can create more distance and less understanding. I believe these terms can become buckets into which we throw all sorts of "they did something evil / that hurt me" actions that may or may not relate to the theory of narcissism.
In lieu of that, when I hear someone claim someone else is a narcissist, I mostly just assume the person claiming that feels very hurt or angry by something that other person did.
I can't imagine this will ever change. How do you encourage someone who seeks the admiration of others at all costs to simply stop?
Without a shred of evidence, I'm sure the increased use of social media is at least partially to blame.
I am really confused about this. It does not make sense to me.
Do you mean that it is difficult to cure? Because that is not the same thing as incurable.
If people can be socialized into it, why can't they be socialized out of it?
15% of the population is incurably emotionally broken? And most of them were made, not born, because they spent too much time on Instagram, and now they are part of the 15% of the population that is cursed to a life of narcissism, no matter how much effort is put into curing them?
Isn't it possible that you can just mature and become less solipsistic? Aren't these behaviors situational? What if you were put in an environment where someone got negative feedback for narcissistic behavior?
There must be something I am missing, because those claims do not seem realistic.
Of course it's possible to mature, but only if people want to. People who actively want to become less self-centered are not narcissists, by definition.
On the other hand labelling these people in some completely "other" group probably is not helpful either - what about those who are on the border? What about those who might display what appears to be very narcissistic qualities but only in very specific niches?
> On the other hand labelling these people in some completely "other" group probably is not helpful either
I'm inclined to agree. Recognizing and accounting for harmful traits in others is important, but some of the rhetoric in this discussion borders dangerously close to dehumanization.
> I don't want to be with someone who doesn't care to drink tap water
I don’t know if it’s ultimatum worthy, but this is a really curious behavior to me. Tap water in almost all of the US is healthy and fine. So not drinking tap water is as queer to me as not wearing any clothes that weren’t professionally cleaned.
I’ve heard from people that they don’t like the taste of tap water. But if one lives in an area for a few weeks the taste is acquired.
In some areas, the tap water is perfectly safe but tastes foul. For instance in many parts of Florida the tap water tastes like rotten eggs because it has a lot of sulfur in it. Safe, but not very tasty (or an acquired taste?)
Lots of people don't drink water much at all, tap or not.
As for the flavor, I disagree that one just gets accustomed to the taste of high chlorine or sulfur levels the way that one gets used to the bitterness of coffee or whiskey.
"Dr. Ramani give numbers around 15% of the population, while my therapist believes it's considerably higher, but I assume she's biased since she lives in Paris."
This might be my favorite quote I've ever read. It reads of pulp fiction and I love it. I know I'll get downvoted, but I can't believe that Paris can be worse than any other major urban center like New York, L.A., Milan or Quebec.
I did giggle, but the handful of narcissistic personality types I have encountered in my life have be hugely concerned with status, so it doesnt seem a huge stretch to believe they'd concentrate in cities.
> impressive accomplishments: a dozen academic degrees in various fields
Having a dozen academic degrees is not impressive even if true. If true, it would be a warning sign that the person isn't able to move on to something deeper and more meaningful than degrees.
Ive thought a lot about that lately and found an explanation (about why do narcicism and psychopathy seem to be more trendy) which satisfies me.
Farms and factories used to employ a lot of people. It was the default job back in the day. So we have two things, 1) it was difficult to get out, especially when you do things superficially and 2), well then, being a "body person" (think muscles) was more trendy than being a "brain person" (think nerd). I dont think the nerds are mocked at schools anymore, I think they are the stars (though its actually conjecture, Id love to verify that).
So yeah, more people out of guetto lives (one might say not the best on average, if you'd forgive me the shortcut here) and the need to look smart socially. Boom psycho crisis.
As a sidenote, same thing happened with the web, it used to be a nerd-with-glass thing (many wouldn't even want to be seen with a computer), you had to have a computer which was expensive and useless for your say, average factory worker.
Now what can we do? Teach children basic psychology, yoga and buddhism maybe? We got to do something because thats a lot of people on the brain market now and thats not gonna end well :)
In collectivist cultures, a narcissist is one who makes the appearance of caring very much about others/society/the nation, when in fact they're really doing so because of appearances.
Or a feeling of self-worth, for the kinds of narcissist who loathe themselves (the "victim" type).
They need to set a higher goal in order to bring meaning into their life because they are unable to nourish healthy relationships and enjoy the small things in life.
Doesn't seem like a very serious article on the topic. Seems to essentially say, "I had some difficulty getting along with certain people in my life whom I would call narcissists. Therefore, narcissism is rampant."
This says there’s no cure for narcissism but that’s clearly and demonstrably not true.
Narcissism is when someone has excessive self regard, like they have a vastly over-inflated image of themselves.
Most people focus on making people revise that high self-regard but it’s much more straightforward to just actually become more and more and more awesome until your perception comes into line with reality.
If you’re really one of the greatest or most important people in the world, and you believe that you are, you’re just a realist.
This has been my preferred approach to solving the problem so far.
it's also important to understand the difference between narcissistic traits, and a narcissistic pathology.
i.e. being narcissistic is not inherently bad nor evil, and unless there are other negative consequences that elevate the traits into pathology, I don't see why should we strive to eradicate narcissism
I'm slightly curious about the author's ability to form solid peer relationships.
This person dated someone who was "emotionally abusive, hypersensitive, and disrespectful". Umm, it IS possible to just say, hey, I don't think this is going to work out. Then just move on. Back in the craigslist dating days dates could be seriously wild for those old enough to remember that. I never felt the urge to post a substack blog about any of it.
Every time I read these things I'm so thankful for my partner who is practical and grounded and I've never heard talk like this. We have 2 kids and it's a job and I can't even imagine doing it with someone who was constantly evaluating the other person for deficiencies. We both cut each other a lot of slack and it really works out for us.
When you find yourself diagnosing the world with various problems, a bit of introspection might be helpful. You may be projecting some internal dysfunction, and even if not, it's MUCH easier to address things with respect to yourself then to "address rampant narcissism".
"toxic behaviors repeatedly observed over an extended period with no apparent willingness for the perpetrator to change, lead to legitimate questioning." - Just the language here - "perpetrator" etc. Most people are just trying to make it through life in one piece. The language in this is throwing up my own pink and red flags.
Instilling a culture of narcissism was done intentionally in order to sell us stuff. It works and it makes a lot of money, I don’t know how you’d stop something like that.
I don't mind being the "loser" that contributes to society. I hate feeling like the "sucker" that gets left holding the bag when the selfish jerks continue to take.
I think what you are describing is distinctly more American than anything else - in many countries it would probably not be seen as a huge positive to be super gregarious in a business setting for example.
Author appears to be bleeding friends and relationships and blaming it on the narcissism of the other person. Some people are narcissistic to a certain degree, for some of them it drives them to great accomplishments. See Trump, Elon, and many other billionaires and politicians. Some others it cripples them. People are complicated.
we live in a culture of narccissism, as christopher lasch pointed out[1].
social media and online dating has ramped this exponentially, amplifying appearances and social positioning beyond anything humans have ever experienced, and the sociopaths are thriving, in their own way
my solution to this is the same as my solution all other social ills: raise good children
> In my experience, there are a few pink flags that attract my attention: I try to be careful with people who continually credit themselves – this can be done indirectly by using false humility; they don't demonstrate a genuine interest in their peers; their words are inconsistent with their actions – sometimes for many small details; they rarely express guilt and, in most cases, make insincere apologies; they can be very sensitive in the face of unwitting criticism.
Be careful-- you quoted a number like 15% of the population, in which case-- the narcissists are among us! And aside from inconsistent words/deeds, someone who is being calm but firm in the face of narcissists may wave these same pink flags:
1. They may take credit explicitly and precisely for the actual work they do. This avoids the pitfall of one of the narcissists seizing on ambiguities and lack of communication to claim credit for this same work (which they didn't actually do).
2. Narcissists seem like they constantly leave room for little dramas and use manipulative tactics to try to gain "points" with those around them. In the face of that, even the author's professed stoicism would be interpreted as a problem by such a narcissist-- after all, if you don't follow them down their rabbit hole of manipulation then how could you possibly register as "genuinely interested" in their view?
3. Maybe I'm weird in that I am fascinated by narcissists and try to interact with them when possible. I mean, a guy walks up to me talking on his cell and puts his finger up, as if to say, "Hold on, I have something to say to you after I'm done with this very important conversation." It's like smelling the elephant shit outside a circus tent-- it's bad, but it a sign of an impending spectacle. I'm getting a tiny shot of adrenaline just thinking about it...
Now, do you think I'm going to express any degree of vulnerability whatsoever to this asshole? Doing that can only cause problems-- like asking the ring toss guy at the carnival if he will take a check...
4. Outside of cranks on HN, everybody is sensitive in the face of unwitting criticism. We've all got different tolerances for it, but we all can only take a finite amount in a given day. If there's a flag here, perhaps it has to do with the way we deal with that sensitivity. In my experience, normies commiserate and tend to feel better for it. Oh, you hit that obstacle and you're a professional obstacle avoider? Thanks, I don't feel as bad now. Perhaps that doesn't work for narcissists because they are Greek Gods with the highest standards? Dunno, just speculating.
Epilogue: the finger-guy walked off without finishing his very important phone call. I haven't heard from him since. :(
what’s rampant is billionaires ”amplifying” vapid narcissism because they want a disempowered population with no good role models or values other than the worship of money, and the path to money is being a cog in the western MCI/global supply chain/the great satan. people don’t want to build the surveillance state for google if it means they are going to be shamed and looked at as creeps. but if you give them enough money, they can film the crispest videos with their most expensive phones of their most expensive houses, making them de-facto cool, because everyone else is poor/a loser.
There’s something a bit ironic in the attitude of this essay. By the conclusion it seems to suggest the only thing one should do in a relationship is continually verify that it isn’t toxic and to find tools to protect oneself over all else…which is when you become the very thing the article decries.
America, and slowly global society thanks to the success and pervasiveness of American media and technology, has always been on a hyper-individualistic trend. Nearly all long-standing communal institutions have at best become shadows of their formers selves at this point or have pretty much dissolved entirely.
It’s the natural outcome of a society that idolizes individuals through rampant celebrity fixations and continually perpetuates the lie of meritocracy by permitting a wildly unbalanced late-stage capitalism to persist and prop up entrepreneur-celebrity types, which are pretty much the manifest fusion of America’s worst aspects: praising individuals because of their entertainment value and praising individuals because of their capital gains. Unfortunately, social media has devolved into a means for extending this possibility of celebrity to the masses. You too can become successful and wealthy not on any significant merit that actually improves society, but just by being a “fun” personality that posts “content” on social media. No need to be an inventor or do anything significant, everyone gets their little kingdom of “followers”.
In America, people who perform selfless, society-serving feats are generally sentenced to becoming footnotes in the public consciousness, maybe being remembered and celebrated for a holiday or so, while the rest of our mental space is occupied by nonsense pretty much 24/7.
if you're doing selfless acts only to be remembered then it's not very selfless is it? The thing i like about individualism is if you're into being selfless then that's great and more power to you. If you're not, well then that's great as well and more power to you too. You're free to pursue what you value.
End the dysgenic forced redistribution of wealth, and people will be forced to adapt to reality. If we continue to tolerate forced redistribution of wealth, it only goes one way, and it's the opposite of "addressing it".
"Being in the Army also grounds me in reality and in my community. The tech world can be a relatively narrow cross-section of society. When I spend time with the Army I interact with the full spectrum of my local community. My squadron has nurses, carpenters, architects, police officers, unemployed people, veterinarians, warehouse workers, tree surgeons, railway engineers, pilots, firefighters. I get to interact with people from a variety of backgrounds, a variety of economic situations, with a variety of outlooks[...] More than just interacting with a cross-section of society, it means building a very high level of trust and depending on each other. When we’re in the field there’s absolutely nowhere to hide, with no privacy and no time-off, and you’ll need to manage to get along. There’s a big taboo of being ‘jack’ and not looking after each other or serving yourself before others."
I had a similar experience when I had to do military service. I don't think there's a better cure for narcissism than getting out of your head and comfort zone, doing something for and with other people in the real world. We should remember where the word 'narcissism' comes from. From Narcissus staring into his own reflection. So sitting in your room, reflecting on how totally not narcissistic you are is never going to be a solution.