No this is not new. You have always have a direction set by political views, even if we have decided they are wrong they are still hard to kill like: smoking is good, white people are superior. There is still "science" being done to bolster those political views.

>> What's new is that any research that might produce results counter to the what the PC-mob deems acceptable is attacked.

> No this is not new.

I don't recall a PC-mob being used to silence any and all non-supportive voices until quite recently.

> You have always have a direction set by political views, even if we have decided they are wrong they are still hard to kill like: smoking is good, white people are superior. There is still "science" being done to bolster those political views.

I don't see what that has to do with that I said - that a very vocal bunch of non-science people seem to have successfully lobbied into silencing specific topics.

> I don't recall a PC-mob being used to silence any and all non-supportive voices until quite recently.

Are you genuinely serious or were you completely unaware of anti-communist government sanctioned blacklisting of academics suspected of being communist for political clout? Are you unaware of churches excommunicating Galileo for daring to scholarly research into the earth rotating around the sun? Are you unaware of our own Alan Turing, of the Turing award, literally castrated not for his research but because he was a known gay researcher? Are you unaware of why HBSUs exist(black scholars were segregated for being black, their research dismissed because of the race of the researcher)?

Politics in academia isn’t new, like, at all.

>Are you unaware of churches excommunicating Galileo for daring to scholarly research into the earth rotating around the sun?

Your point is good but this is a pet peeve of mine. Galileo was not punished by the church for saying the earth orbits the sun. Galileo was indicted and punished by the church because he was a local elite with several personal and political enemies within the church, and more directly, because he slighted the pope, his former friend, by taking a philosophical argument made by said pope, and putting it, paraphrased, into the mouth of a character in his book who was named "simplicio" and cast as a moron. That pope literally gave him permission to publish his claim that the earth orbited the sun, a claim which Galileo did not make based on science, but instead made because he felt the resulting (incorrect and based on outdated observations) mathematical model for the orbits of planets was more "elegant".

If the church truly wanted to punish him, they would not have sentenced him to literally stay at home in a beautiful villa and write books all day. His official charge was that lay people are not allowed to interpret the scripture, which he did a bit in his book. The church did not care if you made mathematical or scientific arguments about how the world worked. They only cared that you leave theology to the priests.

"Galileo was not punished by the church for saying the earth orbits the sun. Galileo was indicted and punished by the church because he was a local elite with several personal and political enemies within the church, and more directly, because he slighted the pope, his former friend, by taking a philosophical argument made by said pope, and putting it, paraphrased, into the mouth of a character in his book who was named "simplicio" and cast as a moron."

This is not really true. While there is some truth to the claim that Galileo placed an argument made by Urban VIII in the mouth of Simplicio and that Urban took offense at this, the trial documents, especially Galileo's sentence, make it very clear that Galileo was being punished for heresy and the heresy he was being punished for was the notion that Sun did not move and that the Earth did. From the sentence:

> We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the abovementioned Galileo, because of the things deduced in the trial and confessed by you as above, have rendered yourself according to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely of having held and believed a doctrine which is false and contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture: that the sun is the center of the world and does not moved from east to west, and the earth moved and is not the center of the world, and that one may hold and defend has probable an opinion after it has been declared and defined contrary to Holy Scripture.

Note that the term "vehemently suspect" is technical term. The Roman Inquisition in the 17th century didn't generally deliver straight up and down guilty or not-guilty verdicts and rather organized convictions according to degrees of suspicion. "Vehement suspicion" indicated that there was at least some (but not much) degree of plausible deniability that Galileo didn't believe what he had written, and that was only because Galileo denied it to the court.

"That pope literally gave him permission to publish his claim that the earth orbited the sun, a claim which Galileo did not make based on science, but instead made because he felt the resulting (incorrect and based on outdated observations) mathematical model for the orbits of planets was more "elegant"."

No, Galileo was given permission to publish a book that presented a neutral comparison of the Copernican and Ptolemaic models on mathematical grounds with the intention of proving that the Church was justified in its suppression of Copernicanism. Galileo's book was not neutral--it argued heavily in favor of Copernicanism--and that's why he got in to trouble. Urban VIII had been his friend prior to this episode so it's likely that had Galileo not placed Urban's argument in Simplicio's mouth at the end that Urban would have protected him rather than punished him, but the reason that Simplicio was given that argument was because that argument was intended to be the end of the book. After four days of continuously losing the debate, Simplicio finally raises Urban's argument about the omnipotence of God and his opponents are forced to agree with him. The idea being that Galileo could stick to the letter of his remit, while still arguing what he wanted. Unfortunately he argued too well and readers realized where is real sympathies lay. Urban VIII was accused of protecting heretics (not just Galileo, but also but supporting the French against the Hapsburgs in the 30 years war,) and so he made an example of Galileo.

Galileo's arguments were not simply mathematical. In fact, if they were, he would never have been punished because it was already permissible to treat Copernicanism as a purely mathematical hypothesis; the 1616 prohibition of Copernicanism explicitly carved out that exception. But Galileo used a wide variety of arguments, including physical arguments. Galileo after all, was primarily what we would call a physicist rather than an astronomer. It was Galileo's insistence that Copernicanism must be physically true and not just a better mathematical model that made him a heretic in the eyes of the Sacred Congregation.

It's important to note that the quality of Galileo's scientific arguments were never a subject of his trial. It was only his conclusions that the Sacred Congregation took issue with. Galileo's chief (but not only) argument, from the tides is now considered to have been spectacularly wrong, but at no point did that come up in the trial. Galileo's arguments could have been 100% perfect and unassailable (and scientific arguments rarely are) and he would have still been punished.

"If the church truly wanted to punish him, they would not have sentenced him to literally stay at home in a beautiful villa and write books all day."

He was sentenced to life imprisonment. That was commuted to house arrest on account of his old age and not at his own house at first. He was prohibited from receiving medical attention late in life. All books by him were placed on the index and he was prohibited from taking visitors. He did manage to continue his work, but that was by publishing in the Netherlands which was a Protestant country and hence outside the reach of the Church. He had first tried to publish in Venice which was a hotbed of anti-clericalism and usually Inquisitorial orders, but even they would publish him.

"His official charge was that lay people are not allowed to interpret the scripture, which he did a bit in his book."

That was not the official charge. I quoted the official charge above. Galileo's interpretation of scripture happened much earlier and preceded the 1616 prohibition of Copernicanism. There Galileo gave counter argument as to why Copernicanism didn't contradict scripture and that served as the catalyst for the investigation that led to the prohibition. Galileo ultimately was not censured for writing on scripture and his argument was even well received to a degree (he had checked it with a cardinal before publishing it,) but the Sacred Congregation decided that it was more concerned about undermining the authority of the Church Fathers, many of whom took the famous passage from Joshua literally, than it was about accidentally hooking scripture to a provably false view of the world. If you read Cardinal Bellarmine's response to Foscarini regarding Galileo's letter, you'll see him very clearly cite the authority of the Church Fathers as his primary consideration. Bellarmine controlled the Sacred Congregation at the time so his opinion on the matter was the Church's opinion.

"The church did not care if you made mathematical or scientific arguments about how the world worked.T hey only cared that you leave theology to the priests. "

The decree from the Index of Forbidden Books banning Copernicanism:

> This Holy Congregagtion has also leaned about the spreading and acceptance many of the false Pythagorean doctrine, altogether contrary to Holy Scripture, that the moves and the sun is motionless, which is also taught by Nicolaus Copernicus' On the Revolution of the Heavenly Spheres and by Dieage de Zuniga's On Job. This may be seen from a certain letter published by a certain Carmelite Father, whose title is Letter of the Reverend Father Paolo Antonio Foscarini, on the Pythagorean and Copernican opinion of the Earth's Motion and the Sun's Rest and on the new Pythagorean World System in which the said Father tries to show that the abovementioned doctrine of the sun's rest at the center of the world and of the earth's motion is consonant with the truth and does not contradict Holy Scripture. Therefore, in order that this opinion may not advance any further to the prejudice of the Catholic truth, the Congregation had decided that the books by Nicolaus Copernicus and by Diego de Zuniga be suspended until corrected; but of the Carmelite Father Paolo Antonio Foscarini be completely prohibited and condemned; and that all other books which teach the same be likewise prohibited, according to whether the present decree it prohibits, condemns and suspends them respectively.

Note that Diego de Zuniga and Paolo Foscarini are both priests. This wasn't about keeping theology to the priests, it was about prohibiting certain theology that would undermine the authority of the Church. The correction applied to Copernicus's book is that it be changed to suggest that his system was not intended as a literal interpretation but only as a mathematical model. As I mentioned earlier, an allowance for treating with Copernicanism as a pure mathematical contrivance for the convenience of astronomers was made but treating it as literally true was declared "error", and later upgraded to "heresy" during Galileo's 1633 trial.

Sorry for the essay, but this subject is a pet-peeve of mine.

Some good books on the subject: 1. Behind the Scenes at Galileo's Trial - Richard J, Blackwell 2. The Essential Galileo - Maurice A. Finocchiaro 3. Galileo Heretic - Pietro Redondi

My "interpretation" of the situation comes mostly from http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-great-ptolemaic-smac...

Have you read this perspective before? Is it a well known "oh not this again" incorrect source in the world of renaissance italy theology and history?

Yes, I've TOF's blog posts before. TOF's perspective is one that I've encounter many times before. You mostly find it in some very conservative Catholic circles.

If I was being generous, I would say that TOF was pushing back against the overwrought hagiography that often surrounds Galileo and his confrontation with the Church. It's true that the common story is an over simplified account and there are some persistent myths that have worked their way into the story over the years into in order to make Galileo look more heroic and the Church more villainous than they either actually was. The real story is a bit complicated.

But the Church really did ban heliocentrism and it really did punish Galileo for arguing for it. That's not in question. I feel that TOF's argument otherwise rests on a deliberate misrepresentation.

TOF's argument the Church was actually just smartly waiting for proof before it changed it's doctrines is a bit rich in that Galileo offered proof and was punished for it. Now, Galileo's proof was bad, but that's not why he was punished. If it was, the Inquisitors would have mentioned that and not simply accused him of heresy for arguing that the Sun stood still. Not to mention that this whole idea rests on the bizarre notion that science works best when you silence debate until proof can be provided

Ironically, that whole argument stems from a quote from Robert Bellarmine's letter to Foscarini, where he admits that Galileo has a point about not interpreting scripture in a way that is provably false. In that quote, Bellarmine isn't saying that the Church is waiting for proof, he's saying that while proof would force him to change his mind, he doesn't think such proof is possible so he may as well go ahead and ban Copenicanism anyway. It's real obvious if you read the very next sentence that TOF for some reason doesn't quote:

> I add that the one who wrote, "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose," was Solomon. who not only spoke inspired by God, but was a man above all others wise and learned in the human sciences and in the knowledge of created things; he received all this wisdom from God; therefore it is not likely that he was affirming something that was contrary to truth already demonstrated or capable of being demonstrated.

In other words, he doesn't believe that Galileo or anybody else will be able to find proof that the sun stays still because that would contradict what he already believes based on his reading of the Bible!

So no, TOF is misrepresenting the stance of the Church in 1616. A lot of people repeat this because it looks like a clever debunking of a common myth, but it's actually more of bunking in that he inserts a lot of detail in order to disguise some blatant misrepresentation.

> Are you genuinely serious or were you completely unaware of anti-communist government sanctioned blacklisting of academics suspected of being communist for political clout? Are you unaware of churches excommunicating Galileo for daring to scholarly research into the earth rotating around the sun? Are you unaware of our own Alan Turing, of the Turing award, literally castrated not for his research but because he was a known gay researcher? Are you unaware of why HBSUs exist(black scholars were segregated for being black, their research dismissed because of the race of the researcher)?

Every single one of those was NOT a mob.

The people in authority, using their authority to push their PoV, is very different to people with no authority forming a mob and demanding that the current authority silence other people from speaking their minds is a very different thing.

Whatever your view of the current authority is, it is infinitely better than mob-justice.

If you think castrating gay men wasn’t mob Justice at the time maybe you should reconsider. Same for whether or not black scholars were considered equal to white ones.

> I don't recall a PC-mob being used to silence any and all non-supportive voices until quite recently.

Scopes would like a word with you.

the “PC mob” might be new but we’ve had mobs of every political, religious, and cultural motivation pressuring academia since it’s invention.

The real problem is that all of those mobs have to answer to the PC mob now. Or at least that's what I hear from people who think that censorship didn't exist until coincidentally around the time of Gamergate.

Mobs that try to force their own views on others are common. PTAs, or strong willed individuals with kids in school, are mob experts. Good things have come out of those mobs. Amsterdams good bicycle infrastructure was built on mob rule instead of listening to "rational engineers" who wanted to build motorways through the city.

Group think exists in science too, I mean Newton calling Leibniz a copy cat was a set back and it's crazy that I still had to learn about the priority controversy almost 300 years later. We feed on unneccessary controversy.