> In the US, the thought is that if you're doing a PhD, say, it's a full-time professionalized pursuit under the assumption you will be a professor; in the rest of the world, a PhD is essentially an apprenticeship in writing under a mentor for however long it takes you, often with no aim (i.e. career) other than that writing itself.
Couldn't disagree more with all of these statements.
I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. There are certainly very important details I did not elaborate in a quick post, but I assume you understand that the question under consideration is how someone pursuing a full-time career might partake in (non-STEM) higher academic degrees. While I regret using the expression “rest of the world”, I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe.
You are correct that people pursue different paths after US PhDs. However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) the average full-time program duration is only going up. There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences.
In Europe, MAs and PhDs are separated as many have noted. I know most about the UK context, where MAs are affordable and can be taken part-time, completed in two years with one class a semester. PhDs, which are research only (I agree with the you and would indeed change “writing” to “research” if I wrote the post again), can also be done part-time over eight years for a very nominal cost (about 5k a year for an international student). Systems have become more standardized in the EU after the Bologna accords towards the more professionalized three year track, but I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France.
Again, comparing post-graduate education between US and EU, let alone between EU countries, is a complex topic. I have attempted only to show that there is a substantial regional difference and that, at least outside STEM, the EU system is more accessible for those with full-time careers, who do not plan to work in academia.
> I read your post in good faith and respond in kind.
Sure, sounds good. Let's do this!
> I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe
You haven't brought any evidence to the table except your personal opinion, which is, as you notice yourself, often only crudely argued in your post.
> However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG)
It's still pretty light compared to what you do at many European universities up to the MSc level. Hence less (or no) course work in many European universities after your MSc.
> the average full-time program duration is only going up.
Ok.
> There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences.
So far I don't see any contradiction to what I wrote.
> the more professionalized three year track
You still haven't discussed what you even mean with 'professionalized'. Is a non-three-year degree unprofessional?
> I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations.
Absolutely, many of them in full time positions doing that research.
> Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France.
My information is different.
>
agentcoops 8 hours ago | parent | context | flag | on: Ask HN: I'm interested in so many disciplines, but...
I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. There are certainly very important details I did not elaborate in a quick post, but I assume you understand that the question under consideration is how someone pursuing a full-time career might partake in (non-STEM) higher academic degrees. While I regret using the expression “rest of the world”, I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe.
You are correct that people pursue different paths after US PhDs. However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) the average full-time program duration is only going up. There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences.
In Europe, MAs and PhDs are separated as many have noted. I know most about the UK context, where MAs are affordable and can be taken part-time, completed in two years with one class a semester. PhDs, which are research only (I agree with the you and would indeed change “writing” to “research” if I wrote the post again), can also be done part-time over eight years for a very nominal cost (about 5k a year for an international student). Systems have become more standardized in the EU after the Bologna accords towards the more professionalized three year track, but I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France.
> Again, comparing post-graduate education between US and EU, let alone between EU countries, is a complex topic.
I know that; you're the one who's presenting it as simple.
> I have attempted only to show that there is a substantial regional difference
By 'equalizing' 96% of humanity as 'the same'?
> and that, at least outside STEM, the EU system is more accessible for those with full-time careers, who do not plan to work in academia.
You keep claiming that, but you haven't shown anything.
I’m mostly familiar with STEM PhD’s, and do not have one. However, my understanding is coursework is over once the PhD starts and you’ve earned a masters. You’re in the lab doing research on your thesis, and often teaching classes.
That's not accurate. 'ABD' (all but dissertation) [1] is an an important milestone because you are not typically done with coursework when starting out (in the US).
Not the parent commenter, but I agree with the sentiment. The selected portion of the earlier comment has multiple pieces that I disagree with: 1) A PhD isn't about writing, and 2) you are not expected to become a professor once you get a PhD in the US.
A PhD isn't really about writing, it's about research. Writing is merely the means of demonstrating that you know how to do research. The way that you break something down involves finding a gap in understanding or a portion of a problem that has not been addressed. Then you find an insight that leads to potential solutions to address the gap. Then you run experiments based around the insight. It is fundamentally a way of thinking, not a way of writing. That's why it's a Doctorate of Philosophy. The actual topic that you cover for your thesis is not as important as the demonstration that you know how to think about research. It's moderately unlikely that you will be working on the same problem in industry.
It's commonplace, at least in engineering programs, to ask whether you're going to go into industry or academia. Research positions in industry typically go to PhDs or Masters with a lot of experience. It is much harder to break into the research world without a PhD in the US. So I believe the original statement:
> a full-time professionalized pursuit under the assumption you will be a professor
is overly specific. Your future could be a professor, a researcher/scientist, or an entrepreneur.
Yes, completely agreed with your corrections. Research is really the term I should have used and, as I clarified in a response above, it’s certainly true that, especially in STEM, there are at least industrial and academic tracks.
I would just clarify that my only intention was to address the particular case of someone currently working in tech who would like to additionally pursue non-STEM studies for their own sake. In that case, rare but that I wish were not so, the part-time, dissertation-only PhD programs of many European nations (Germany and the UK in particular) are, on average, a better fit.
It's just getting worse and worse. I believe you're trying to argue in good faith but maybe you should just stick to stuff you know about.
There is nothing about 'dissertation only' that makes these programs 'part time'. I'd argue that a good German or French university (I would guess the UK too, but I know less about that system) has more comprehensive and more stringent coursework to the MSc level than most US universities have for their PhD level. They don't do additional coursework because they're 'done'. Talk to those PhD students (and their advisors) about whether they consider that work 'part time'.
My last response to you as you’re obviously not arguing in good faith. The sentence that offended you is very simple. PhD programs in the UK are almost universally dissertation-only. While full-time you are expected to finish in three to four years, you can enroll part-time and finish in eight. The latter path is intended for those who are self-funded and typically already working full-time in whatever profession. An MA or MSc, with as or more stringent coursework than in the US, would be required in either case, but the MA can also be completed part-time. Look at the website of almost any English PhD program.
Again, my only argument is that the EU offers more options for advanced studies alongside another career than the US, which is something I have firsthand experience with.
In UK / Germany, a PhD can carry more of an apprenticeship feel with higher pay, compared to a US PhD where you are working for very little money compared to what you might make using your undergrad degree in industry.
But I share your disagreement that US PhD is intended to only lead to academia - it seems like it as often leads to:
- Paying ones way through grad school (you get a masters / course work out of it too). Dirty secret: you can bale on your PhD with a masters
- Corporate research (pays as well as anything)
- Corporate engineering job in environment where deep expertise is valuable
There's a pay bonus to having a PhD (at least in robotics) but the opportunity cost vs working in industry indicates to me that getting a PhD just for the credential / higher pay is not a good idea. Do it because you love to have more time to learn deeply and to conduct research. And know you have a lot of options should you want to go into industry - at any time - during your PhD if you drop out, or after.
(I say all this as someone without a PhD who's been working in research labs and among PhDs at companies for a while).
Couldn't disagree more with all of these statements.