This has become a general problem. There seems to be more money in "software services" than in building tractors and motors.
John Deere is not unique. All common rail engines require a visit from a "certified engineer" who has access to the software. This is terrible in the marine industry where you can't get one in the middle of the ocean and you can't repair yourself either. What do you do? Do you sail to a harbor? You can't unless you have a sailboat. Get a tow to the nearest Volvo/Yanmar dealer? You must be kidding, thousand of miles away?
So yes, that lawsuit makes sense.
As for a class action lawsuit some of the comments in the thread misunderstand how it works:
1. Secure one or two plaintiffs. Two or three is better. Make sure they represent owners well: no conflicts, not paid to sue, good/clean plaintiffs.
2. Find the right location for the lawsuit. Location is very important in the US. Not only the state but the county. This is VERY important. Good plaintiff lawyers know where to sue.
3. Get your judge to certify the class action. "this lawsuit is on behalf of all users of John Deere tractors, etc". This is ALSO very important. John Deere will fight that. They will claim that those two plaintiffs do not represent the class, blabla.
4. Fight in court. Other plaintiffs have nothing to do. If the class action lawsuit wins on behalf of thousands of owners this represents a lot of money. It costs nothing to plaintiffs. Lawyers typically get 30%, sometimes less. If they are too greedy (they all are) the judge may object and cut down the fees.
5. Users can “opt out” of the payment if John Deere loses in court after appeals. Most plaintiffs do not opt out because they can’t afford to fight big corporations.
Unfortunately corporations are not always fair. We have seen many, many cases when poor farmer John just could not pay the exorbitant costs imposed by John Deere. Understand that these people have learned to be self-sufficient. They weld their broken massive tools in the field. They call the mobile repair shop to fix and tune their engines. Now they can't do anything. That massive, expensive John Deer is like a beached whale. Nothing you can do about it.
Hence class action lawsuits in the US. Some of them are abusive (i.e.recent att phone bills, 100M customers collect $1, lawyers collect $30M), but sometimes there are no other ways (asbestos, workplace injuries, brain damage near chemical waste from mining). Folks outside the US struggle to understand the system.
It is why today you can enjoy Non-Apple store repairs to your phone, non OEM parts for your car or non branded cartridges for your printer.
I wish that such a lawsuit will force John Deere to change its practices, like it forced other companies to do so.
I get what you are saying.... that we can use the law to gain the right to repair.
But step back - how is any of that morally right? Why should people have to fight corporation in court to get a basic right to repair the thing they bought? Its insane!
Surely, if there was any sense to this, the presumption would be in favour of the purchaser by default! Regardless of any service contract or other legal agreement. That it should be for the corporation to argue in court that there are some special circumstances that mean that default ruling does not apply, even though you bought (not rented) their product.
The fact it is this way round tells you all you need to know. At best, the consumer can waste time (10 years?) and money (lots) to hopefully (but perhaps not) prove the obvious case. OTOH, there is no incentive for the corporation not to try the dirtiest most unfriendly tactics they think they can get away with. Esp. if they have a near monopoly in their domain (eg John Deere).
For this reason and others, I see governance and law as captured entities - they are captured by corporations and we the consumers are there to have our wealth extracted from while retaining very few rights. Frankly, it is neo-feudalism. Or fascism (corporate+government together).
Stallman and FSF predicted this decades ago, but they failed to foresee not many people really care about being able to control their computers as much as big expensive hardware purchases like vehicles. DRM and general lack of free-software rights is the root-cause.
I agree with you say verisimi. Pretty sad.
As much as I hate trial lawyers, as of today we would not be better off without them. Bad corporations will squeeze money out of you as much as they can.
Can't John Deere just have customers sign away their right to sue or be party to a class action? They could make that a requirement for new customers or customers seeking repairs.
They can. Up to a point. If you push too much one day you will face a jury composed of normal people.
We have experienced that in some states with non compete agreements. It got to the point that you could no longer work anywhere else. Sometimes the company would make you sign documents saying that they owned the IP you were creating AFTER your departure.
Don't push too hard because at one point you will that jury of normal people. And they will make their mind very quickly.
In EU, NZ/AU and probably many more places Tailpipe gas emissions test is routine. There are even mobile units with portable Emissions measurement systems. Meanwhile even California doesnt mandate tailpipe tests :o
I didn't say anything about testing. I've never heard of anyone doing emissions testing on tractors after it leaves the factory. I said that the EPA will get mad if someone changes the emissions. The EPA has already hinted that making it possible for random people to violate emissions by changes the software will be a bad thing. Not sure how this will turn out in court and laws, but it is a factor.
When I press people on what parts of their tractors they can't do now it generally comes down to something that would make the tractor not pass emissions if it was tested. Parts and computer test equipment is readily available.
This is precisely my point. Rest of the world tests, they test actual exhaust emissions, and there are regulations and penalties.
US on the other hand legislated computer DRM "for engines" because its cheaper/faster, anything beyond is a super special case. My favorite is actual tailpipe test commercial trucks must pass in NY - they test opacity of gas aka "is the smoke visible?" :o and look for physical presence of all mandated emission hardware for that model/year/exemption status. All of that theater instead of using proper exhaust gas analyzers.
>Parts and computer test equipment is readily available.
Can you download standalone John Deere service software? or did you mean signing up for their paid SAAS package?
John Deere is not unique. All common rail engines require a visit from a "certified engineer" who has access to the software. This is terrible in the marine industry where you can't get one in the middle of the ocean and you can't repair yourself either. What do you do? Do you sail to a harbor? You can't unless you have a sailboat. Get a tow to the nearest Volvo/Yanmar dealer? You must be kidding, thousand of miles away?
So yes, that lawsuit makes sense.
As for a class action lawsuit some of the comments in the thread misunderstand how it works: 1. Secure one or two plaintiffs. Two or three is better. Make sure they represent owners well: no conflicts, not paid to sue, good/clean plaintiffs. 2. Find the right location for the lawsuit. Location is very important in the US. Not only the state but the county. This is VERY important. Good plaintiff lawyers know where to sue. 3. Get your judge to certify the class action. "this lawsuit is on behalf of all users of John Deere tractors, etc". This is ALSO very important. John Deere will fight that. They will claim that those two plaintiffs do not represent the class, blabla. 4. Fight in court. Other plaintiffs have nothing to do. If the class action lawsuit wins on behalf of thousands of owners this represents a lot of money. It costs nothing to plaintiffs. Lawyers typically get 30%, sometimes less. If they are too greedy (they all are) the judge may object and cut down the fees. 5. Users can “opt out” of the payment if John Deere loses in court after appeals. Most plaintiffs do not opt out because they can’t afford to fight big corporations.
Unfortunately corporations are not always fair. We have seen many, many cases when poor farmer John just could not pay the exorbitant costs imposed by John Deere. Understand that these people have learned to be self-sufficient. They weld their broken massive tools in the field. They call the mobile repair shop to fix and tune their engines. Now they can't do anything. That massive, expensive John Deer is like a beached whale. Nothing you can do about it.
Hence class action lawsuits in the US. Some of them are abusive (i.e.recent att phone bills, 100M customers collect $1, lawyers collect $30M), but sometimes there are no other ways (asbestos, workplace injuries, brain damage near chemical waste from mining). Folks outside the US struggle to understand the system.
It is why today you can enjoy Non-Apple store repairs to your phone, non OEM parts for your car or non branded cartridges for your printer.
I wish that such a lawsuit will force John Deere to change its practices, like it forced other companies to do so.