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Satoshi leaked his Los Angeles IP address (2016) (whoissatoshi.wordpress.com)
183 points by sahil50 on Dec 29, 2021 | hide | past | favorite | 164 comments


"In the Jan of 2009 when Hal and Satoshi were working on Bitcoin Alpha version, Hal encountered an error with the software and he posted the debug log to the mailing list."

The "dox" assumes that only three people were using Bitcoin at the time, and thus one of them must be Satoshi. That's a bad assumption, as Bitcoin was publicly available at that time, and was announced on the public cryptography mailing list, and we know for a fact that a few people tried it out early on.

The IRC initial seeding mechanism was _not_ mandatory to use, let alone full time. So it wouldn't be surprising at all if Satoshi wasn't using it.

"This is not a TOR exit node which implies that this is the IP address used by Satoshi on 2009-01-10 and he was in Van Nuys on this day"

It's not a TOR exit node in 2016, when this article is published. That doesn't tell us anything about 2009.


As per LinuxBender's comment [1], ExoneraTor [2] tells us it hasn't been a TOR relay in 2009 either.

I think Szabo is the most likely Satoshi candidate. He seems to have disappeared from public view since March, despite being a prolific Twitter [2]. I hope he is doing well, chilling on a beach in a Caribbean island.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29729498

[2]: https://metrics.torproject.org/exonerator.html?ip=68.164.57....

[3]: https://twitter.com/nickszabo4


yeah, the leak is 2009-01-10, two days after Bitcoin 0.1 dropped


Peter himself! Thank you for your work, I had a great time chatting with you in Colombia back in 2017. Cheers!


Van Nuys, Los Angeles, CA was where the IP was located.

> IP Address: 68.164.57.219

> IP Block: 68.164.57.128 – 68.164.57.255

> Reverse DNS: h-68-164-57-219.lsan.ca.dynamic.megapath.net

> Host: Covad Communications. Van Nuys, CA, USA

> Location: Van Nuys, CA, USA

Could have even been something like Satoshi wasn't on his normal setup at the time and it slipped through. Maybe on vacation or a wireless connection that connected near there. Or the IP lookup was even slightly off and they were in Sherman Oaks or anything really. Sometimes even wireless connections can appear to come from an entirely different state based on the network. The IP could have also been spoofed or temporary.

Covad Communications was the 16th biggest ISP at the time and then "Covad was acquired a by private equity firm, Platinum Equity, in April 2008. In 2010, it was sold to U.S. Venture Partners, which merged Covad, and Speakeasy into MegaPath." [1]

It appears when this IP connected (Jan 2009) it was owned by the private equity firm Platinum Equity [2].

The IP was definitely logged in Los Angeles, beyond that it could be anything.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covad

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum_Equity


So I went to https://anarchapulco.com/ in 2018. There I met a guy who claimed to know who Satoshi is. He said Satoshi was from LA, and that the keys to the wallet that hold all those unclaimed bitcoins are buried in a backyard in LA. Would be worth billions now.

No idea if true.


If you think LA housing prices are crazy now, just wait till people start factoring in potential billions of dollars buried in the backyard.


A couple billion dollars divided by the number of houses in LA... actually wouldn't add that much value to the housing prices. After all, the total assessed value of real estate in the county is about $1.7 trillion.


As best I can figure, America's land alone is worth somewhere between $22-44 trillion, and that's not including any of the buildings. (Manhattan's land alone is worth about $1.7 trillion according to my sources)

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-is-...

So one multibillion dollar thumb drive is even less when spread out over everything in LA!


Does it even make sense to divorce the price of land from the buildings? Developed farmland also has a different value from virgin land, but the difference is ignored.

Manhattan's land would not be worth 1.7T$ if it were just farmland.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-24/manhattan...



Of course you can approximate the price: For each plot of land you consider the value under the counterfactual where any buildings on it weren't there but all the neighborhood surroundings were unchanged. The sum across all the plots in the city is the total land price.


To place some Bayesian value on this we first need to have all the "I know where Satoshi lives" stories on the table.


> Maybe on vacation or a wireless connection that connected near there.

Bitcoin had been released a few days prior to that log file. So unlikely to be on vacation.

As I mentioned in another comment, the IRC seeding mechanism isn't necessary to use Bitcoin, and it was publicly released at the time, so no reason to assume this is Satoshi.


Potentially just living there, or there for something, or a false positive.

> Bitcoin had been released a few days prior to that log file. So unlikely to be on vacation.

Vacations are great for after shipping though, after the long slog of a project. Since it was new it would be a good time to escape before all the support requests and more usage increased. Maybe they couldn't stay away from that draw and then got a bit lazy on vacation in terms of opsec. Or maybe not. Good info nonetheless, it is one potential clue or not in the mystery.


And Van Nuys is a premiere vacation destination. I’m sure he was feeling the pull toward that idyllic locale more than ever after that long slog.


I feel like Hal Finney and Nick Szabo were the two people who seem plausible and the fact that Hal and Satoshi were on different IP addresses that day seems to me like it's not Hal.

So for me it feels pretty much settled that Satoshi is Szabo.


He was on a podcast and misspoke saying he invented it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_z-vzkA0r4


FYI 11 minute Satoshi infomercial with ads. mentions Szabo @7:30


I worked with Nick's brother Paul for many years at F5. Several years ago I asked him if Nick was Satoshi and he said Nick denied being Satoshi and Paul also added that it wouldn't make sense because "He still owes me money!". Pretty funny. But I guess he could have fooled his own brother.


Nick Szabo has been potentially mentioned as Satoshi for sometime [1] due to him working on decentralized currencies since 1998 with Bit Gold [2].

Elon Musk mentioned Nick Szabo on Lex Fridman's podcast as Szabo was also doing Bit Gold prior and is heavy into crypto and currencies. [3]

> "Obviously I don't know who created bitcoin ... it seems as though Nick Szabo is probably more than anyone else responsible for the evolution of those ideas," said Musk, adding, "he claims not to be Nakamoto ... but he seems to be the one more responsible for the ideas behind it than anyone else."

> Szabo is best known as the inventor of one of bitcoin’s predecessors, Bit Gold, and digital smart contracts—which eventually evolved to become a key part of the ethereum blockchain. Szabo has previously denied he's Satoshi Nakamoto, telling financial author Dominic Frisby in 2014, "I'm afraid you got it wrong doxing me as Satoshi, but I'm used to it."

Szabo's full name is Nicholas Szabo [4]. Just seems quite a bit like Satoshi Nakamoto. It feels like there is something there potentially.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Szabo#Satoshi_Nakamoto_sp...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Szabo#Bit_gold

[3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2021/12/28/elon-...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Szabo


I don't understand why, when satoshi used UK english very consistently, including quite obscure references tucked away in source code etc, and was active in GMT compatible hours (more so than US hours!) - nonetheless every theory ignores all this and has him being American.


1. Satoshi has proven they had tight skills at keeping their identify secret.

2. If Satoshi were from the US, the easiest misdirection would be to pretend to be British. Learning the spelling and grammatical differences is not hard (or maybe test against a British spelling/grammar checker). Making sure you appear to be in a different timezone is basic operational security.

3. I would expect references to be intentional misdirections.


You sound like a person that wants to believe that Satoshi Nakamoto is/was American.


Many US immigrants studied under the British system before arriving here. More Asians and Africans studied/follow this standard than actual Brits.

Nigerians, for example, follow this standard and they have 4 times the population of the UK.


He wasn’t just using British spelling, but British coloquialisms that are not taught abroad. And he clearly wrote at a “native” level.

And he was active - writing commits and emails - in UK hours, not American hours.

Is it some kind of US nationalism that insists on ignoring all this?


> British coloquialisms that are not taught abroad

What are some examples of those?


He would use terms like "bloody hard" or "wet blanket" which I would doubt are taught to foreigners learning English even with British spelling.

However - his spelling was a bit inconsistent. The "Len Sassaman" theory is interesting - as he was known to write in a somewhat British style (for whatever reason) - but not consistently - and was in the right timezone at the time. Or perhaps Satoshi was a synthesis of multiple different people which would explain a lot of the inconsistency as well.


>He would use terms like "bloody hard" or "wet blanket" which I would doubt are taught to foreigners learning English even with British spelling.

These coloquialisms are common in Africa/Asia. This is the case for most ex-colonies.


And presumably was getting up at 4am every day to bang out emails and code? Seems like there’s a simpler explanation.


Hanlon’s razor would disagree


Is there a theory for why Nick Szabo would be public about Bit Gold but go to great efforts to hide himself when creating Bitcoin?

It seems unlikely to me that someone who previously had no issue being public would suddenly be so secretive, especially given how unlikely it was for Bitcoin to turn out the way it did.


As unlikely as traction to Bitcoin was/is, surely he would have understood the implications it could have to the practitioner of this idea? "bitcoins can not be manipulated by governments or financial institutions and bitcoin transactions occur directly between two parties without a middleman." If he figured that he could make it functionally work with Bit Gold, why would you expose yourself to that.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20091129231620/http://sourceforg...


There is a counterargument to that: Craig Wright. He openly claims to be Satoshi (almost certainly fraudulently), and he seems to be doing kinda OK. [1]

[1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/06/miami-jury-rules-in-favor-of...


That argument is nonsense because:

1. It is post factual - it couldn't have been predicted beforehand.

2. Craig Wright would only be attacked by those that believe Craig is Satoshi. That could be a very small subset of those who would want to attack Satoshi.


Bit Gold was maybe to test out interest, then when the real one was made it would be more anonymous. If you think about it, bitcoin being anonymous is a feature as it makes it seem less centralized eventhough Satoshi owns a large chunk of it. Today companies or individuals will control a large chunk of other coins/platforms and it feels more centralized or even autocratic. At any time those big fish could wreak havoc. Satoshi seems more hands off.

Another potential reason is the money it would generate and the recognition would attract too much attention. The successful decentralized currency like bitcoin might have been foreseen as a threat to the creator after it takes off and gains in value.

From the wiki on Nick Szabo, he is more 'reclusive' and not wanting to be known. On his blog he mentioned his intent on creating a live version of the currency as Bit Gold was more of a prototype/demo and was never launched. Even the name Bit Gold and bitcoin are very similar as is the name Nicholas Szabo (N.S.) and Satoshi Nakamoto (S.N.) in a few ways. Satoshi Nakamoto always seems like a purposeful shroud of a name, looking for someone by that name is probably not going to find them:

> Nathaniel Popper wrote in The New York Times that "the most convincing evidence pointed to a reclusive American man of Hungarian descent named Nick Szabo." In 2008, prior to the release of bitcoin, Szabo wrote a comment on his blog about the intent of creating a live version of his hypothetical currency. [1]

Hal Finney was the first to receive 10 bitcoins from Satoshi Nakamoto [2]. Hal Finney was the next employee after Phil Zimmermann at PGP. So he knew the potential for being pursued by governments for software creations. Hal, who died in 2014 unfortunately, probably knew Satoshi and would have known he was shrouding/anonymous for good reasons as seen in the PGP history just before that and around the same time bit gold was being created.

The very likely people to be Satoshi Nakamoto are Nick Szabo and Hal Finney due to the early interactions and transactions, and potentially Dorian Satoshi Nakamoto, but that seems unlikely they would use their real name [3]. Maybe it was all three or someone else entirely, these guys are just around the early days and some of the first transactions. Either that or someone or some group saw the need for decentralized currency from their efforts and then front ran them and made it seem more like them to help shroud themselves.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Szabo#Satoshi_Nakamoto_sp...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Nakamoto#Possible_iden...


Why would he suddenly develop his next project anonymously when he was public on Bit Gold?

Was he so convinced that Bitcoin would be a killer app and thought he should hide since day 1?


Maybe it took the first failed project to realize that should the project succeed, there could be a financial incentive to kidnap/coerce/blackmail the founder.


> Elon Musk mentioned Nick Szabo on Lex Fridman's podcast as Szabo was also doing Bit Gold prior and is heavy into crypto and currencies. [3]

>> "Obviously I don't know who created bitcoin ... it seems as though Nick Szabo is probably more than anyone else responsible for the evolution of those ideas," said Musk, adding, "he claims not to be Nakamoto ... but he seems to be the one more responsible for the ideas behind it than anyone else."

Why do Elon Musk's speculations have any credibility here? It's not his field, and even in his field he has a track record of making confident public statements that turn out to be wildly wrong.


He was one of the creators of PayPal, so digital money is his field. If you read the quote carefully, he is also not speculating on Nakamoto. Elon instead states that Nick Szabo contributed to the ideas behind cryptocurrencies. This generally is not disputed.


> He was one of the creators of PayPal, so digital money is his field.

He was one of four people listed as founders of X.com, which merged with Confinity, which changed its name to PayPal where he was fired as CEO; PayPal was then purchased by EBay, whereupon Musk took a big payday.

Judging by his involvement with Tesla Motors Inc -- he became chairman and CEO by investing 6.5 million into the existing company; a lawsuit brought by an incorporating founder resulted in an agreement whereby Musk and four others can call themselves founders -- makes me wonder what his contribution to X.com actually was.

Whatever else he may be, he's an extraordinarily good investor.


I think no matter how you feel about Elon Musk, I feel it can sort of be universally appreciated how insane of a pivot/second act he's had where being a part of paypal's early days is basically a footnote.


> Why do Elon Musk's speculations have any credibility here? It's not his field, and even in his field he has a track record of making confident public statements that turn out to be wildly wrong.

Actually it's very much his field. Elon Musk was one of the founders of X.com which eventually merged to become PayPal. He was interested in digital currency since the '90s and has been active in the cryptocurrency space as well.


Too bad his push of a meme coin is making him look less serious about it now.


Same thing with Bill Gates: they pay for advisory.

Nick is Satoshi. It pains me to type that out.

We were always supposed to look for Satoshi, never to find him.


I suspect (or at least hope) it’s not Szabo given he seems, to put it nicely, a little unhinged about politics on Twitter.

Although I suppose he’s but one of many ostensibly smart and decent people who seem to devolve into terrible people after being on Twitter too long with a large following.


https://www.google.com/search?q=szabo+van+nuy

Lot's of szabo references in google in Van Nuys.


2016 article. 2009 leak.


Can't believe that guy's like "I'm Satoshi" goes to court


Is there a term for this, where a person discovers something extremely interesting, but doesn’t know the proper channels to make the knowledge public?

In this case, releasing the info on a random spammy looking WP blog.


It feels like an ARG, like Daniel Mullins is going to release a game in a few years that uses something in this blog as the key for a cypher.


So… What are the proper channels?


the term is 'liberating'


Thank you


It's Nick Szabo.

He uses his initials for his Pseudonyms (N.S)

Nakamoto Satoshi = Bitcoin

Nicolas Saberhagen = Monero


It was in fact, Len Sassaman.

From anonymous remailers and his penchant for anonymously released work back in the mailing lists, to MojoNetwork with Bram. His British spelling, his time zone abroad when working in academia and posting online. His circle. Before he committed suicide due to his neurological issues and loss of passion for life, Satoshi last said

“I’ve moved on to other things and probably won’t be around in the future.”

He kept this secret even from his own wife. Alas, I hate to post this here just like this but it's my belief that it's an open secret. Only those close enough to suspect and know his pathology venture the guess. His wish is to have the work carried on nameless and to speak for itself. He hated notoriety for notoriety sake. I feel disrespectful even posting this, but it was not fucking Nick Szabo.


I worked with Len 20-something years ago at PGP. I don’t think it was him, but if it was I wouldn’t be THAT surprised.

He never stuck me as into $. But rather, into crypto.



Not saying this is evidence for or against it, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that someone who wants to stay anonymous would throw out red herrings.


I second this. If Len Sassaman was not Satoshi, at least he was a better Satoshi than Szabo.


The most likely explanation I've read is that Szabo was involved on the Bitcoin project, at the behest of US Intelligence (perhaps team lead, working within a defined set of goals - it's speculation for now). Bitcoin is a very effective means of destabilizing currencies and extracting wealth out of non-friendly areas, so for the US Intelligence community it is a boon.

Szabo later went on to improve on the concept with Monero, without the involvement of US Intelligence (obviously, since Monero is very unfriendly for the US Govt). Again, speculation. The only person capable of creating both, is likely Szabo. Monero being a big middle finger to "the team" behind Bitcoin, who still control the keys.


That doesn’t make sense.


Which part?


I am glad Obama gave Nick SS protection.


That's one of most amusing conspiracy theories I've heard in a while :-)


It’s pretty remarkable he’s been able to keep secret for this long.


Possibly passed away… it would be hard for anyone to resist the amount of money his early coin holding is now worth.


I think somebody smart enough to invent Bitcoin seems likely to have been smart enough to mine coins on a separate account, knowing he would never be able to touch the genesis wallet. I think Satoshi is alive and well and enjoying his riches. Good for them


Exactly. Anybody that mined those earlier blocks on the weird unknown hardware was also able to mine on known hardware under another identity.

so

A) Satoshi has other earnings, in bitcoin, that was held long enough to make Satoshi extremely rich, and sold under their normal known identity. While never needing to associate with the other identity.

B) The private keys to the bitcoin mined in those original blocks were sold for cash over the counter for very large amounts to funds with longer time horizons. Bitcoin can operate in temporarily trusted environments. Bitcoin price has tanked every time very old Bitcoin is transferred onchain, so there is no need to transfer them onchain. We would never know.


The problem with those private keys being sold off-net is that the buyer can never be sure the seller deleted every copy. Who would take that risk? And who would buy it and not use any of it?

Even if the value tanks it'll still be a ton of money.


Correct, with all single signer ownership you can never be sure how many custodians there are

So you’re right and we would never be able to prove that any amount has changed hands or not, only assume that others wouldn't take the risk


Prove no, but it is not very likely IMO.

Sure, it is a network based on trust. But the whole idea of bitcoin's principle of trust is that you trust the majority of an entire community.

By making a deal with a single party for their wallet credentials you have to trust only the seller. One single party. In a shady deal involving a fortune.

And like I said, who would spend obviously phenomenal amounts on something and then never even touch it? When the buyer could simply move that trust from one party to the community simply by transferring the balance to a new wallet.

Of course the ripples in bitcoin's value would be unprecedented. But the buyer would hold so much of it that one way or another they would be extremely rich.

I'm not really talking about the sharing of keys in general by the way. Just about the thought of Satoshi's genesis wallet keys being sold this way.


I think what they were trying to say was that buying them off chain would be extremely unfavorable as the buyer gains zero of the protections that a blockchain claims to offer in this case.


And my original post wrote that bitcoin works in trusted environments, and maybe they didn't know that meant small networks of humans trusting each other with private keys off of the blockchain even though that was the only context possible, now they know so we’re just intentionally talking past each other at this point


> Anybody that mined those earlier blocks on the weird unknown hardware

Which “weird unknown hardware”. Early in Bitcoin, you could just mine bitcoin with any CPU — you still can.

A.) That’s a possibility.

B.) As someone mentioned already, this doesn’t make sense from a trust and security standpoint. Yet discarding this possibility doesn’t prove that (A) is what really happened.


Satoshis first bitcoin blocks dont have a signature that matches known hardware. It doesnt matter if it was general processors like cpus or application specific integrated circuits.


You seem like a guy that's read the studies/blogs on the Satoshi/genesis nonces


yeah, I have, there are so many ways to elevate or downrank any altrustic version of Satoshi, or a dead/hiding Satoshi, or an incompetent Satoshi that lost private keys, since its also possible for there to already be an extremely rich Satoshi that doesn't have any incentive to look back

its all fruitless to speculate


Satoshi probably destroyed the keys to the genesis wallet as a gift to humanity


There are enough stories like the 10,000 BTC pizza and lost hard drives it's entirely plausible he doesn't have that early coin any more.


It would be funny if he's just a normal engineer somewhere who did this as a quick side project and won't come out as the creator because he's too embarrassed that he lost the keys.


Embarrassed is one thing, at this point he’d be putting himself in mortal danger


No way that paper and implementation is a "quick side project". Even if Satoshi were some kind of Bill Joy, Jeff Dean, John Carmack hybrid that's a full time endeavor


I may be wrong but aren’t their a significant amount held from day 1 that haven’t been moved?


To be clearer: that people would give away 10k of them to buy a pizza indicates back then they were seen as essentially worthless, meaning you'd probably not take much care to preserve the ones you mined for a while while playing with the software you wrote.


A lost key would explain it. Maybe that was your point.


If money didn’t move, that may be because the owner didn’t want it to move, or because they couldn’t move it bascule they lost the access key.

From an outsider’s perspective, both look 100% identical.


That or they nuked the private key


Doesnt this mean that somewhere, buried deep in a a database, someone can run a query to see who had the IP address on that day, and assuming it is a private residence there is at least a chance that is SN?


The US Intelligence community knows who Satoshi is. After all, they created it to destabilize competitor currencies. Satoshi is likely a Project Name, not a person. Nobody else could laugh at the idea of wanting to cash in $70 billion.


Can you provide a source on these claims?


Yeah but leaking such data from an ISP would be considered illegal.


Why would that be illegal? Data like this is bought and sold daily.

(Not condoning this, but privacy laws in the US are pretty weak)


Is there some "legal process" (subpoena, etc) that could reveal this?


The spooks know, anyway. They don't even need to ask anybody.


Satoshi Nakamoto went leap and bounds to hide his identity, this probably also included his online footprint.


I am perfectly fine not knowing ever who Satoshi is. I think we need to learn to accept these things.


For whatever it is worth, Dorian Nakamoto (whom Leah Goodman claimed to be "The Face Behind Bitcoin"[1]) stays nearby - within the realm of possibility :)

[1] https://www.newsweek.com/2014/03/14/face-behind-bitcoin-2479...


> This is not a TOR exit node which implies that this is the IP address used by Satoshi on 2009-01-10

How do we know it was not a tor exit node in January 2009?



edit: krapp below me is right, I AM AN IDIOT. I just ran it through an anagram website and trusted it without even checking.

---

I always thought Satoshi Nakamoto was an anagram.

Antonomasias ~ Satoshi Nakamoto

Antonomasias: the substitution of an epithet or title for a proper name (e.g., the Bard for Shakespeare).

So it seems like a play on words, because Satoshi Nakamoto is a real name, and therefore a group might have wanted the creator to have a human name.


the closest anagram i can make from “antonomasias” is:

Satosi nanamo

seems like a stretch, unless there’s more that i’m missing.


>I always thought Satoshi Nakamoto was an anagram.

>Antonomasias ~ Satoshi Nakamoto

Doesn't work. No H or K, too many N's.


Anyone have an 2009 vintage geo-IP table? (the current mapping doesnt mean a lot)


Maybe look on Internet Archive to find an old MaxMind database?


I think of Satoshi as a genius for the invention. Unfortunately the invention is causing a global climate crisis. Similar to how Einstein's laws helped create the atomic bomb.


> Unfortunately the invention is causing a global climate crisis.

This is straight up bonkers. Yes: humanity's energy consumption is likely the cause of climate change. But the energy consumed goes into a lot of outputs: shelter, transportation, entertainment, commerce.

You could legitimately regard proof-of-work as an inefficiency whose cost keeps increasing. If proof-of-stake is sufficient, then it's remarkably inefficient. But it produces something useful.

Let's have some sense of perspective [1] about energy consumption before you put bitcoin or proof-of-work as the culprit for Earth's climate problems.

[1] https://www.otherlab.com/blog-posts/us-energy-flow-super-san...


Bitcoin isn't the only culprit, but it certainly isn't helping.

> But it produces something useful.

That is debatable, but even if it does, it does it at a much higher energy cost than the preexisting alternatives.


Come on. You can't believe ASICS pull more power than mining operations. Aluminum smelters are not cheap


This is an absolute lie. Repeating this is QAnon level idiocy. Truly.


[flagged]


It's certainly not helping. Bitcoin is astoundingly energy hungry and produces effectively nothing with the energy consumed. Textbook definition of wasteful behavior.


Assuming humans are somewhat rational it must produce something! At its worse interpretation it could be a casino.

Humanity does a whole lot of wasteful things. Should we ban music, too? Parks perhaps? Switch to plain clothing?

In other words, who are you to decide what's wasteful and what should be banned?

I would more consider the ad industry to fit this definition. Yet I saw no computation how much energy and human brains it is wasting.


I always thought it was J Orlin Grabbe

I figured he learned some lessons from Digital Monetary Trust during late 1990's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Orlin_Grabbe

https://www.hermetic.ch/crypto/kalliste/money1.htm

https://www.hermetic.ch/crypto/kalliste/money2.htm

https://page.math.tu-berlin.de/~kant/teaching/hess/krypto-ws...

His textbook "International financial markets" has some C++ code.

"What forbids us to tell the truth, laughingly?" — Horace, Satires, I.24.


He died in March 2008, even before the publication of the white paper.


The reverse DNS of the IP address mentioned is: h-68-164-57-219.lsan.ca.dynamic.globalcapacity.com according to SecurityTrails.

The article also gives the following information:

- HOST DETAILS: H-68-164-57-219.LSANCA54.DYNAMIC.COVAD.NET

- IP Address: 68.164.57.219

The IP address is within a /16 block owned by Megapath, a Los Angeles hosting provider.


But what about in 2009?


How do we know that's not the ip of a proxy or VPN?


Isn't there a guy literally called Satoshi Nakamoto, that lived near and friends with Hal Finney, in California.

I think SN was probably more than one person, and I do think it was built with government involvement. The doxxed Satoshi himself worked as a government contractor I believe.


If you want to find out who Satoshi is follow the money. How he, she or they bought bitcoin.org domain and bitcoin.org hosting? Cash in mail, credit card or bank transfer. All things that are tracked and recorded somewhere in someone's database or archive.


How is cash in mail recorded?


You send it via courier company and after 2001 you can bet they are tracking and recording it.


So I paid cash and lied about my name to the semi-shady courier company..


Would you lie in the court or to the police? If so then it would be harsh lesson for you because you would get yourself in prison.


How would this end up in court in front of police? The point is its not hard to lie to a courier service.

Fedex is the #1 drug distributor...


>How would this end up in court in front of police? The point is its not hard to lie to a courier service.

What if cash in mail is used for terrorist attacks? They will get real identity of money sender sooner or later.

>Fedex is the #1 drug distributor...

Drug shipments get intercepted and sellers and buyers arrested not all but many. Of course you can get away with anything but are you willing to gamble? I do not mean you personally but anyone who is thinking about doing it.


So Paul Le Roux is out now as prime suspect. He was arrested 2012, and in 2009 he was still on the run, and certainly not in the US. More like in Brazil, Philippines or Hong Kong.


True. Definitely a prime candidate for authoring True Crypt though. The book The Mastermind is a wild ride.


Does the blockchain (or other miners) log the miner's IP addresses? That's why I don't like to mine on my local network


Does the blockchain log the miner's IP addresses? That's why I don't like to mine on my local network


No, it does not. Transactions also do not contain IP addresses.

Some chain explorer will track 'first seen IP', eg: the first IP that relayed the transaction, but this does not mean the sender. Same deal with blocks -- you can see the IP sent your peer the block, but not the IP that created it, which may or may not be the same. With Dandelion routing, you can mask the sender IP behind multiple other relaying nodes. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0156


Transactions can contain IP addresses.

You can send BTC to an IP address.

This is not a good thing to do - the documentation even says it "will probably be stolen immediately"


Many many years ago. The initial designs for Bitcoin had a 'pay to IP' feature, probably to approximate traditional banking IP to IP transfer. It has not existed for almost 8 years now.

"This feature has been removed from Bitcoin Core as-of v0.8.0[1]." (Feb 2013).


damn time flies.

I haven't bought a bitcoin since it went from $20 to $400.

the change in my tumbling accounts are worth more than everything i had bought since then combined.

thanks china!


I recommend dollar cost averaging over time to 'stack sats'. You can probably never get back to your original position if you sold, but you can try.

I also bought then, I continue to buy now. I will buy in the future. Regret every sale, No regrets on every purchase.


Even if the blockchain does not, I think that someone could if they pay attention.


That is where Dandelion routing and anonymity networks comes in.

A global passive observer could track cleartext transaction hashes and flag the first IP seen broadcasting them. Bitcoin peer-to-peer CAN support Tor for transaction routing. Monero blockchain can use I2P to hide transaction source also.

_Most_ adversaries do not have such visibility over global internet flows.


Satoshi is very obviously David Schwartz (Ripple). Check out his patents from '88.


The keys can move without the coins moving. Think of it like the ultimate Casascius coins. There's no way to know whether or not Satoshi cashed out. I can't find the thread, but I'm pretty sure Adam Back even said this on bitcointalk and said that that would be how he'd move the money if he were Satoshi.


That’s true, but if someone bought the keys, then they’d be more likely to start moving/spending the coins.


How to dodge transaction fees and internet sleuths in one pass: Put a bitcoin in a wallet and sell the wallet.


How could that work? If I sell you a private key, then you get the private key, and I get the money... and the private key. You either move them right away or risk me moving them (or me selling the private key again to another guy)


34.168904,-118.455922


A decade-old dynamic IP is one thing. Current GPS coordinates to someone's personal residence are another. I don't think this is appropriate to post on HN.


EDIT: Please explain in the comments - because I seriously do not understand that - why on earth you are downvoting this!? You're advocating something cruel. WTF? What is the problem about saying "leave a person alone who apparently WANTS to be left alone?". You're advocating stalking.

The people who trying to figure out who Satoshi is and make it public should realize this:

What they're effectively doing is trying to completely destroy someone's life just for them having written a piece of software.

Because then everyone will assume (EDIT: not *know*, see the comments) that the person is insanely rich. And beyond the glorification of being rich everyone forgets what it actually means:

You're a prisoner of your money.

Want to go to a pub and have a beer? Not possible, you might get kidnapped or at least harassed by paparazzi.

Want to go outside for a walk? Same as above.

Want friends? Nope, how are you gonna find them if you cannot go outside? How can you trust anyone? Maybe they just want your money?

Of course, the rich can mingle among each other. But this very much limits your possible circle of social contacts, and there's no law of nature which says that someone like Sathoshi might even want to be friends with Justin Bieber etc., or vice versa.

Hobbies? Only those you can do alone.

Want a girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse? See above.

Also as a bonus a large portion of the public will HATE you, no matter what you do. Just see how much HN hates crypto.

You might get tortured for money, lynched or whatever cruel imagination you can come up with. Enough people know you = anything is possible.

Satoshi apparently wants to be left alone so you should do just that.

They gave you a software for free which spawned a whole industry, they don't deserve to be harassed for that. If you don't like it then don't use it, but don't destroy the developer's life. Nobody forces you to use it - and even if someone did then go harass them, not the developer.


Well, to start with, you're exaggerating. His life will meaningfully change (perhaps for the worse, by his standards), but his life won't be "destroyed" -- at least not by any reasonable standard. There are plenty of well-known billionaires who are perfectly happy.

To put this another way: is the search for knowledge immoral, if discovering that knowledge will inadvertently harm a person? That's sort of a deep question -- one which doesn't have a definitive answer, but your comment preaches as though it did.


Thanks for taking the care of explaining!

> but his life won't be "destroyed" -- at least not by any reasonable standard. There are plenty of well-known billionaires who are perfectly happy.

1. The person has actively signaled that they do NOT want to be known by trying to stay anonymous. You're acting against their will. It is thus false to assume that they would like it. They have basically told you that they won't.

2. Destruction, in a minimal definition, means changing something so much it is completely different from what it was.

So to prove this is not destructive, name me the aspects of their personal life which will NOT be affected by suddenly the whole planet assuming they are rich.

There are probably none. Everything of their existing life will likely change.

So this is quite destructive isn't it?

And sure, their new life afterwards (if they don't get murdered) might be likeable as well.

But is it your right to replace the whole of someone's life with something different and expect them to like it?

It's a pretty intrusive attitude.

> To put this another way: is the search for knowledge immoral, if discovering that knowledge will inadvertently harm a person?

Yes in this case, because that knowledge is completely worthless for producing any real usable thing. So there is no benefit of the knowledge to value its harm against.

You can read how Bitcoin works in the source code, and deduce all necessary financial decisions from that. No need to know about the developer is needed. Bitcoin is trust-less so they have zero power on what it does. The code is its law.

So overall, what people are seeking is not knowledge but entertainment.

And it is super cruel to hurt someone for entertainment.


> You're a prisoner of your money.

Moreover, all these claims of Satoshi having a lot of money are pretty much just speculation -- all they do is show that some early miner mined a few hundred thousand bitcoin. They don't show that miner is Satoshi, that's just a plausible guess because the people speculating know of few other early Bitcoin users. They also don't show that whomever mined those coins hasn't lost the keys for them.

Any person 'identified' as Satoshi may not actually be Satoshi anyways, people have shown that they're remarkably able to believe utter drivel.

So now imagine all the problems you listed but apply them to someone who isn't actually wealthy because because that early miner wasn't them, they're not Bitcoin's creator, or because the assets had been lost back when they were worth very little. They'd still be subject to all the assumptions and thus threats, but not be able to buy their way out of them to the extent that it's possible to do so-- e.g. they couldn't afford the multi-million dollar a year security.

(Someone might reply to you that if their problem was wealth they didn't want they could always dispose of it, but that just reduces to the problem above: people wouldn't believe they did so it wouldn't solve the problem, it would only remove the best tool they have to ameliorate it)

> They gave you a software for free which spawned a whole industry, they don't deserve to be harassed for that. If you don't like it then don't use it, but don't destroy the developer's life. Nobody forces you to use it

Not just that, the very premise and fundamental design of Bitcoin was to give its creator no particular control or authority over it. So their identity doesn't really matter. The fetishization of the identity of Bitcoin's creator is a stupendous act of missing the entire point.

People shouldn't delude themselves that they're not engaging in a mean and harmful act against someone who never caused them harm. It's gross and creepy. If Satoshi is still alive and wanted to be known, he would be. Not only did he expressly complain about the speculation about his identity when he was around (in the last message he sent before disappearing), his continued silence shows he isn't interested in now.


> What they're effectively doing is trying to completely destroy someone's life just for them having written a piece of software.

Also, in the process, they could easily destroy someone else's life through a mistaken identification.


I say this only partially in jest: not just harassed, but harassed by crypto nerds


Or harassed by that supposed journalist who tried to expose that old guy she tracked down just because he was Japanese and was formerly some kind of engineer


Paparazzi don't care about Satoshi. Neither does the public, which is why the paparazzi doesn't.

He might have a person or two recognize him in a month. Most of them would never approach him.


Even if that is true there is no guarantee it will stay like that:

Bitcoin has amassed a $1T valuation in like what, 10 years?, of existing.

Who knows how popular it will be in another 10 years, 20 years? Could be gone. Or could have replaced the dollar.

If you de-anonymize the person now, they will be affected by that forever, not just now.


i agree with the sentiment, however, it’s wishful thinking.

Bitcoin exists in a space within game theory where everyone is in a constant adversarial relation with everyone else. it’s an explicit design, and that relationship is the only way we really know that the software and cryptography are sound. but you can’t completely isolate the protocol from its surroundings. the adversarial challenge of trying to break the bitcoin protocol is going to leak into the adjacent challenge of trying to de-anonymous the person who explicitly wanted to remain pseudonymous. in a twisted sense, if SN remains pseudonymous under the extreme pressure of thousands trying to de-anonymize him, that’s the only way we can really be sure that anonymization is still possible in the modern age.


> remains pseudonymous under the extreme pressure of thousands trying to de-anonymize him, that’s the only way we can really be sure that anonymization is still possible in the modern age.

Other unwilling human beings aren't appropriate test subjects for your conjectures about security and privacy. If you'd like to test a security hypothesis, offer up yourself or your family for attack-- don't nominate other people.


see:

> i agree with the sentiment, however, it’s wishful thinking.

if you’re trying to persuade me that i shouldn’t use SN as an unwilling test subject, save your breath: i’m not engaged in any effort to de-anonymize him. his project is founded on adversarial mechanics within an extrajudicial (i.e. lawless) space: it’s naive to think those mechanics won’t bleed over from the project to its adjacencies. that’s the point i’m trying to make.


Thanks for clarifying.

Your comment still could be read as justifying "he was asking for it", or at least "he should have expected it". I'm not sure if that's what you intend, but I don't agree with that.

When Satoshi left Bitcoins were worth essentially nothing (and obviously when it was created). There is no shortage of example 'experts' from back then that were convinced that Bitcoin would always be worth nothing or nearly so. In such a state Bitcoin is just some random obscure open source P2P application (in fact, Wikipedia initially deleted the article on it exactly as such).


finally someone speaking my language


Nice try Satoshi


Example: Warren Buffett's personal security budget

> Keeping the boss safe has cost [Berkshire] an average of US$339,000 a year since 2008, or US$4.4 million in total.

https://amp.scmp.com/magazines/style/luxury/article/3126736/...


No sarcasm, that honestly sounds pretty cheap. About the price of a mid-level FAANG SWE.


Comparing it to an SWE is not a good comparison.

However that sum is low. You need 24/7 security people at watch, both guarding him and the home and then also key family members.

It is possible that he prefers a low attention detail, which reduces cost. But we're still easily talking about a mid two digit number for full-time personal.

It is however likely that different aspects are accounted differently (general company estate security etc.)


If you had to be constantly followed by security people the whole day, would your complete loss of privacy be alleviated by them being cheap?

Include in the equation that Satoshi additionally likely is a person who puts a high value on privacy, given that they ensured to be anonymous up to now.


I think you misinterpreted the meaning of my comments. $339k is a bargain for Berkshire (or whoever pays it) considering who they're protecting. That's all.


Seems cheap for a man worth $100B?




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