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"Unfortunately, it's impossible for the societal / cultural to progress at all without having the free time and tranquility-of-psyche to actually reflect on life."

I mean, this take isn't wrong, but it implies that society isn't the best it's ever been. People used to have to work themselves to the bone resisting death by nature. Some people have to work 2 jobs, maybe 60 or 70 hour weeks - that sucks, but it's still better than literally being a serf.

"Concurrent is a severe lack of noblesse oblige in the U.S. The highest strata has forgotten its cultural roots, and lacks spiritual depth in this age."

When has noblesse oblige ever been a main proponent of change? I don't think there was noblesse oblige during the french revolution. Did Webb's spatter with Carnegie _do_ anything? I feel like rich people have spatters all the time, none of it material to actual cultural change




"Some people have to work 2 jobs, maybe 60 or 70 hour weeks - that sucks, but it's still better than literally being a serf."

This is definitely someone who was never in desperate poverty, lol


Spoken like someone who has never been a serf.


I mean, you are kinda flippantly dismissing my claim... do you disagree? You would rather be a serf?

Today we have all of modern technology to help us - we have vaccines for debilitating diseases. If you break your leg, you don't just die... And even the lowest class of people can afford smartphones and access the internet.

These are all vast and material improvements to quality of life


Having been in that position, I can genuinely say I would rather be a Russian serf, absolutely illiterate and uneducated, knowing nothing at all about how destitute my conditions are, than being in the position I am today (or especially in the position I once was).

That reminds me of a major example of noblesse oblige: the emancipation of all serfs by Alexander II. Many went on to own and operate factories, and improve their material circumstances greatly (before Stalin destroyed it all) -- but some did not. And those that did not were likely spiritually worse-off being factory-hands working directly for a petit bourgeoise.

Whether or not this event was good or bad is subjective to one's personal values.


If you think serfs did not know how destitute they were because they were "illiterate and uneducated", then you have a far too rosy view of history.

If you were in their shoes, you would have clearly known how desperately poor you were. You knew because they lived in a hovel and can only heat it when it gets super cold. You knew because you saw a child starve to death after a bad harvest because you don't have any money to buy food for them. You knew because you only have a few sets of crappy clothing and holes in your shoes but can't afford to buy new ones. You knew because your mother died from a painful illness dies because you can't afford the medication.

You knew because, despite being a serf, despite being uneducated, you are not a complete moron.


I don't think its a matter of being a moron or not.

I've been in the conditions you describe, even much worse. Rarely does the mind wander to "this sucks, this really fucking sucks. Things need to change." You're too preoccupied with survival, and doing what you need to do. There is simply no time or extra energy to ruminate on one's material -- much spiritual -- state.

The only reason I got out of such a situation was because I knew there were things I could do to change my material circumstances, and escape such a fate. Had I not---had I not been educated or lived in "greener pastures"---I'm certain I would've continued to live like that and made peace with my circumstances, and made the best of them.

Materially, the circumstances were awful. But the few people I was surrounded with, who shared in such destitution, really made it very bearable, even pleasant. Having "lost" some, really did not give the same anguish as it does now. At the time, it just meant I had one less person to rely on, and one less person that would make the day go by faster, and so on. It wasn't emotional. Such is a luxury for others with time and resources.

Being "in the moment" and always working hard to survive gave me purpose. Being surrounded by others of the same fiber gave me belonging.

Would I go back, knowing what I know about the world? Never. I know far too much about how things "could be" to ever be in those material circumstances again.

Were the entire world to collapse, and I to lose my memory of all the past, I'm certain my spirit would be better off.

Alas, I and all the people around me, are too educated. We've been taught of bad and good. Of what we should strive for; of what "success" means; how we should think and act so as to be "good"; and what "bad" things and circumstances we should avoid, even be sad, shameful, or any other array of negative emotions, about.

The world we've been born into is hyper-focused on materialism, and there is no escape. There's no way to survive outside this system; and so those neural pathways rebalance and rewrite themselves so that we may find a place, any place at all, in this place.


The hypothetical surf that we talked about would readily trade their existence of starving to death and watching their their family die for one of materialism. if you say that you would rather be such a person, in their shoes, you are fooling yourself


We value different things.

I would rather be a serf, or even a golden retriever.


On society: simply a matter of personal values -- and subjective to its core -- especially in the case of defining "best." The only other "branch of thought" that shoots out is that the current U.S. society is the most enmeshed within the lives of its people. Again, whether or not this is a "good" thing, something to be lauded or decried, is individual.

In the past, you were not a "part" of society; you simply co-existed. Your main "society" was local, and its influence and demands did not have the same reach for the commoner until mass-communication took off, and became readily (and cheaply) available.

To some this is regressive towards individualism. To others this is a glorious advent towards improving material circumstances.

On the last, while material circumstances have improved, those of the spiritual (non-religious) nature have dwindled. There is ever less room to be human, "boxed-out" by the burgeoning, frenetic, and all-encompassing need to be a useful part in the whole.

Materially, the person working 2 jobs is better off than a literal serf; but in the incorporeal, both are still slaves in soul -- needing to labor for another in order to survive (while the other can simply live idle, and survive by virtue of his slaves).

Another branch could be that the serf didn't know he was a serf. He was not educated, nor cognizant of much but the (few) people around him. His spirit was simple, and wanted of little but base primal needs. Were he to learn he was as serf, I'm sure his spirit would become broken, knowing full well how terrible his circumstances are (in relation to his betters) -- and its crushing inescapability. But without such, he simply lives his life, as that's all he's known. There is no ephemeral "greener pasture" to keep on striving for until he drops dead (spiritually, and physically). He knows not of anguish. Discomfort and physical abuse? Yes. But of spiritual anguish he knows not.

This can go on and on in many different directions, but suffice to say I see it as moot.

On noblesse oblige: main proponent of change? I believe never. Its simply theatre; a social nicety. All it does is "smooth" any "ruffled feathers," and helps hide the disparity in material circumstance; as well as soothe negative emotions -- stopping them from cascading into general class-antagonism, and slave uprisings.

The increased visibility of the vast swathes of nouveau elite means their actions are under constant scrutiny by their lessers. Instead of reveling in degeneracy and exuberant opulence "behind closed doors" as the old elites did, they now broadcast it to the billions of proles, inadvertently reminding them that there is a "greener pasture." And as our hypothetical serf, all-aware that it is an utterly unreachable height (that is, if one hasn't been completely deluded by one's society or oneself into believing it is possible).

The simplest rule of governing over the masses is to make them believe their lives are good and well -- that they have everything they could ever want; that there is no "greener pasture." That the encroachment onto the soul of the common man by society is for the benefit of the common man, and not simply a way for the uppermost crust to simply subsist on their labor. Perhaps even that there is no encroachment onto the soul at all, it simply is "all they've known," and "how life is."

In this respect, a lack of noblesse oblige is just one example of the failings of our betters in managing societal progression, in-spite of the boorish and ever-deepening entanglement of "society" within the life and spirit of the commoner.


>But of spiritual anguish he knows not.

Thank you, Count Tolstoy, for that insight.


I had never read anything of his, but just now read through an article[0] and it seems like our observations match up (if only due to the shared ethnicity of our souls).

Do you know which of his works pertains most closely to his thoughts on "what should be done?"; where he writes more on non-religious faith, and "taking the meaning given to live by real humanity and merging myself in that life?"

[0] https://www.themarginalian.org/2014/06/03/tolstoy-confession...


Most people in the US probably only know he wrote "War and Peace". I started reading it online, but got bored and quit before long.

However, reading about Tolstoy as a person, and some of the shorter stuff he wrote is way more interesting, at least to me.

Andrea Dworkin wrote about Tolstoy's story "The Kreutzer Sonata" in the book "Intercourse" and compared it to his real life relationship with his wife. Which seems to have been horrific...according to her, who posterity has not esteemed like her husband.

Dworkin focused on misogyny, but other people have found aspects of Tolstoy's thinking or behavior repellent for other reasons. Here is something G.K. Chesterton wrote (since on HN only his fence ever seems to be mentioned)

"It is difficult in every case to reconcile Tolstoy the great artist with Tolstoy the almost venomous reformer. It is difficult to believe that a man who draws in such noble outlines the dignity of the daily life of humanity regards as evil that divine act of procreation by which that dignity is renewed from age to age. It is difficult to believe that a man who has painted with so frightful an honesty the heartrending emptiness of the life of the poor can really grudge them every one of their pitiful pleasures, from courtship to tobacco. It is difficult to believe that a poet in prose who has so powerfully exhibited the earth-born air of man, the essential kinship of a human being, with the landscape in which he lives, can deny so elemental a virtue as that which attaches a man to his own ancestors and his own land. It is difficult to believe that the man who feels so poignantly the detestable insolence of oppression would not actually, if he had the chance, lay the oppressor flat with his fist. All, however, arises from the search after a false simplicity, the aim of being, if I may so express it, more natural than it is natural to be. It would not only be more human, it would be more humble of us to be content to be complex. The truest kinship with humanity would lie in doing as humanity has always done, accepting with a sportsmanlike relish the estate to which we are called, the star of our happiness, and the fortunes of the land of our birth."


Serfs had more time off.




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