I have the privilege of owning a Happy Hacking 2, it has topre keys. I used it for about a year. And I hated it! It's insanely noisy, to the point of distraction. It's so damn loud. But the dealbreaker for me is how heavy and deep the keys are. It's just too much energy and travel time for efficient typing IMO. After long sessions my fingertips felt sore from the blunt damage of pushing down the keys.
But I'll recognize they have some merit. The chunky feeling has a sense of physically I never experienced in other keyboard. The 60 keys and compact form factor is great for transport and leaves a lot of room for other things on your desk (this is actually super useful). The physical switches for changing the layout are very handy. And honestly the thing look like it could survive an impact from a deep space object. I would be surprised if it starts to show wear within the next 10 years.
I still prefer my cheap Cherry Mx-Board 3 with brown cherry keys. The thing is clunky and ugly, but the more muted noise and lower pressure required to activate the keys is what I'm comfortable with.
I'm so sorry for my former colleagues that had to go through my topre period and deal with the noise I even personally was very annoyed with.
I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them.
The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive!
I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them.
My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpad keyboard (TrackPoint Keyboard II Bluetooth 4Y40X49493): the island version (current) is more comfortable than the previous version where the keys were touching (SK-8835 family if you want a numpad) as it leaves some room for nails.
Mechanical keyboards seem preferred by gamers, but in my opinion, they make little sense in an office setting.
However, my new favorite mouse is the Logitech G600 that's popular for MMOs: after purchasing a few different mice that had been recommended here and testing them all, it's the one that fits the best in my hand, even if it's still too large (why can't they make smaller mice??)
What I like the most is how it has side keys that can be mapped in the firmware to physical keys (persistent setting) and to elaborate actions in AutoHotKey!
Now give me the same thing 30% smaller, wireless with bluetooth, with a left hand option, and I'd happily pay $200 for it!
Exactly the same sentiment. My yearlong experiment to try to love mechanical keyboards left me with a thousand euro hole in my wallet and physical problems spanning from fingers to upper body musculature. I loved the tactile feel, but hated what they did to my body.
I think mechanical keyboards are just too high, with excessive travel. You sort of have to keep your hands floating in the air, which transfers stress to your neck, shoulders and upper body. No palm support I tried offered any substantial relief, probably due to the long travel and finger contortions required.
Second issue, perhaps I'm a poor typist, but my fingertips frequently got stuck between the keys, causing mistakes by triggering adjacent keys.
One day I got tired and bought a 10 euro keyboard from the grocery shop. Noname, slimline, rubber domes. What a relief that was.
These days I swear by Logitech MX Keys. Best keyboard I have ever touched.
> One day I got tired and bought a 10 euro keyboard from the grocery shop. Noname, slimline, rubber domes. What a relief that was.
Actually, I had the same thing happen to me during my mechanical keyboard experiment when I had to use some old keyboard found in the basement on a raspberrypi.
It felt SO GOOD, SO COMFORTABLE, that I said "screw that experiment, I'll accept that I'm an uncultured swine who likes membrane keyboards!"
I decided to stop trying to fit my tastes to what's popular, and instead added that quirk to my list of differences with normal geeks (who hate many of the things I like, such as Windows...)
Then I bought myself a Thinkpad SK-88xx membrane keyboard new in a box at a price that'd make even mechanical keyboard snobs cry, and I've been happy ever since with regular Thinkpad membrane keyboards :)
» I decided to stop trying to fit my tastes to what's popular
Funny enough, for me it was the inexpensive (~ USD 25) no name "blue" switches keyboard that I like best. They are very clickity clackity. However, I work from home now so it works out.
It doesn't have a number pad which I thought would be a deal breaker but I don't mind much at all. Even the legendary Thinkpad keyboard is not good enough anymore. In fact, I went to the Thinkpad bios and switched the fn <-> Ctrl keys back to the same layout as on my USB keyboard.
> Funny enough, for me it was the inexpensive (~ USD 25) no name "blue" switches keyboard that I like best. They are very clickity clackity. However, I work from home now so it works out.
That sounds exactly like my personal experience. I purchased a cheap Ajazz ak33 for around USD 25 and I loved the feel and response. It's a shame that no one within a 30 feet radius shared my appreciation of it's clickyness, and now it sits on a shelf gathering dust.
I find average mechanical keyboards to be perfect for my typing style. They never cause me hand strain, stress, tension, etc. Membrane keyboards, however - and especially whatever you call the keyboards on Macbooks - feel like I'm trying to finger drum on glass. I end up with tons of hand pain.
However -- the qualifying fact is that I am a pianist, from the age of 5. I believe that a lot of the biomechanics I learned at the piano keyboard transfer to the computer keyboard, whether I want them to or not. I can't help but try to type the way I play piano to some degree -- in large part, this means an elevated wrist, a pretty high finger force and more of a hammer-type finger action rather than a pressing-type acting.
A very important part of any instrument training is learning correct technique, and a large reason for this is the prevention of injury. I've had decades to adopt the correct technique for keeping my wrists elevated and my fingers hanging down without tension. And I'm sure the increased finger strength helps, too.
To you and the parent poster and the grandparent poster, I wonder if you've ever tried a mechanical keyboard with low profile keys and keycaps?
I enjoy mechanical keyboards myself, and even so, I found myself liking the low profile ones a lot better. Like you said, I love the tactile feel, and I also find regular sized mechanical keyboards too high.
I currently use two: The Keychron K1 "Ultra thin" for work and the HAVIT Low Profile one. Both are a joy to type with. They are as thin as any rubber dome keyboards and provide a better type feel.
So many people seem to rant and rave about mechanical keyboard that I'm still willing to give them a try!
Could you recommend a model that's not too noisy and doesn't require too much force, but which also has the page up and page down keys on both sides of the up arrow?
This seems a rarity for mechanical keyboards, while it's quite standard on laptops. Since I spend most of my time on laptops, I'd like to at least match the general shape for the features I use the most- like shift-page up and shift-page down scrolling in consoles.
I’m using silent red and I don’t find them too noisy.
One of the main advantages of a mechanical is that they are often programmable so you no longer have to rely on software based methods to change key mappings. Caps lock is Escape everywhere all the time.
I have Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl, like a UNIX-style keyboard. Otherwise, my requirements for a mechanical keyboard are simple:
1. High quality, tactile switches (Cherry MX Blues or Browns)
2. Programmable keymapping
3. TKL layout
4. 6NKRO
5. PBT double-shot molded keycaps (not ABS)
6. Steel baseplate with as little flex as possible
7. Removable USB-C cable
8. Black or grey (dark colours)
I don't care at all about RGB, that's a gimmick to me. I'm not a gamer. I need something I can blaze on when doing heavy Vim editing or writing (I type +/- 150 wpm) after a nap and a few cups of good coffee.
This would be a limit: I use AHK to have chorded keys:
- caps is esc if used alone, control if used with another key
- enter is enter if used alone, control if used with another key
- shift left is page up if used alone, shift if used with another key
- shift right is page down if used alone, shift if used with another key
- alt left is home if used alone, alt if used with another key
- alt right is home if used alone, alt if used with another key
This makes many shortcuts very easy: ctrl-l can be done one handed with the right hand by pressing enter-l
Likewise, to control-shift-home, I press caps+shift left+alt left.
To move between tabs, on the left caps then shift left, or on the right enter then shift right.
Better: the two thumbs "beginning then end of file" to have a quick look at some code: right alt then left alt (so right alt=alt, left alt=home) and the same 2 keys but in the opposite order, left alt then right alt (so left alt=alt, right alt=end)
This is super interesting. I absolutely love AHK, too. But can you please clarify how you achieve, "caps is esc if used alone, control if used with another key"? Is it based on whether the key is still down (pressed) vs. up (released)?
If you don't mind, can you please share your script? My Capslock-as-a-modifier setup is very simple. I just use Capslock + various keys to do stuff:
Silent reds are also known as pink, in case anyone is looking for them. They were exactly what I was looking for after trying brown (still too loud and a little too much force required), silver (way too many false clicks when I rested on the home row), and various Zilents (OK, until I tried the pinks and realized I don't like tactile switches at all).
Sorry but like most of the 70% the up arrow has "shift" on the left, and "end" on the right.
The closest is the GMK UNIQEK C70, with pagedown on the right... but shift on the left. I might be able to remap FN, and to find a cap with the right slant... but then it's not low profile.
>Second issue, perhaps I'm a poor typist, but my fingertips frequently got stuck between the keys, causing mistakes by triggering adjacent keys.
This is a new one on me. I have never heard of this happening to anyone. My recommendation for you would get a low profile mechanical keyboard like the Keychron K3 or Logitech G915
To be clear, I did not mean that my fingers are caught between the keys. More like I often felt like I'm hitting keycaps sideways. I could not always discipline myself to operate the keyboard like a 1970s typist. This was very distracting and caused errors. Probably I bottomed out too much, instead of just breaking the click? I'm sure there's technique that can be mastered.
I guess I'm a slimline keyboard person and thanks for the recommendation. Perhaps I will try a mechanical slim as well, to fully close this experiment. For the moment I enjoy just getting some work done on the MX Keys, it is an absolute delight. Can't say enough good things about it.
For some reason this happens to me with the MacBook laptop keyboards (the new ones). I don’t know what I‘m doing wrong, maybe it’s because I come from a MK with rather deep keys and all? I haven‘t figured it out yet.
After going to the Keeb Life (2x Ergodox + Iris + Mistel Borocco) for ergonomic reasons, i have some thoughts.
If using a mechanical keyboard caused the need for contortions, it was a bad fit for you. Full stop. Whatever layout you ended up with was built for the needs of someone else.
I generally tell people who're interested in the Keeb Life to grab something random off Amazon. If they want something known, I point them at the Code keyboard, which is 90% a basic keyboard, 10% swag. Nothing weird except some clever use of the function keys and some entirely optional helpful things for programmers in the layout.
IANAMD, but I'd bring up this with one. The relaxed "floating hands while typing" posture is one that a lot of people end up passing through. It works for some but not others and comfortable typing should be regardless of the keyboard.
> Second issue, perhaps I'm a poor typist, but my fingertips frequently got stuck between the keys, causing mistakes by triggering adjacent keys.
To me this is one of benefits of harder to press keys: Accidentally touching a key is not enough to trigger them but intentional keypresses go through. It's the same difference as between piano and light synth keyboard. The thing about long travel is part avoiding accidental keypresses but also that you don't have to press the key to bottom and can avoid the jolt.
Topre Realforce aren't really mechanical keyboards — they are rubber dome keyboards. They get lumped together with them only because they are highquality rubber domes, with a luxurious feel.
I would best compare Topre to Key Tronic Lifetime and ErgoForce rubber dome keyboards from the '90s. Both those and Topre are full-travel, and have a distinct bottom-out feel, but they still require you to bottom out.
They are also comparable in sound, IMHO.
BTW. I prefer low-profile rubber dome/scissor switches or full-travel mechanical Cherry MX Clear.
I've used a Topre keyboard a few weeks at work some years ago but my fingers starting aching from having to push past that big bump in the key travel.
Except they aren't rubber dome switches, the rubber is just part of the spring mechanism while the switching itself uses capacitive sensing.
Similarly, infamous Hall effect switches, as well as the similarly rare optical switches, don't use mechanical component for switching itself... Rubber dome switches, however, technically do (switching happens when the keys cause physical hit on the membranes)
P. S. Yes, I'm riffing about how it doesn't really matter.
Libertouch was also a luxury high quality rubber dome keyboard like Realforce, but it's not known outside Japan. It uses simple electrical contact switch rather than capacitive,
but feeling/mechanism are similar to Realforce. It also support changing weight by replacing rubber. US ANSI layout is also available.
Libertouch is the best feeling switch I've ever used including Realforce/HHKB. I love this but its full layout with tenkey is pain.
It's gone so only available on Japanese second hand markets like Yahoo Auction and Mercari. You need to use proxy service to import. Some are brand new.
The MX Clear was the first switch I used that made me feel like I understood Mech keyboards. It eventually lead me to my current favorite switch the Zilent 67g.
You don't seem to understand that you don't need to bottom out your switches to actuate them. I have Kailh Copper switches which barely require me to push them down very far in order to actuate. Also they're pretty quiet. You can have your preferences, but blanketly saying that all mech keyboards "require too much strength" and are "loud" is wrong. The "expensive" part isn't even true in all cases.
This is a skill and it isn’t free. First, you have to learn the contact height with all your fingers for all angles. Second, the balance between the weight of your fingers and the key resistance must be fine enough, or you get fatigue in finger-extending muscles, or misclicks, or misrepeats. Topre even made RealForce variants to address this specific issue. I’m sure it’s not so hard and you mastered it, but an average random person has to try few keyboards before finding the one that fits and each try has a learning curve, and the last ones can be expensive (“Oh, it seems that I want speed non-mx tactile 55g with orings and media keys, but there are only three models, one doesn’t ship to my region, and the other two are too high based, one pretty overpriced”). That’s why mechanical keyboard guys often have a handful of them, cause all are nice but only one really fits.
The dexterity required to only press the key (roughly) half way to the actuation point is just as strenuous; you might as well be bottoming them out every time. I prefer extreme short travel keyboards for this reason. Quieter, shorter key travel distance, much less fatigue.
> The dexterity required to only press the key (roughly) half way to the actuation point is just as strenuous
You don't have to only press the key to the actuation point, you have to press it at least to it. You can then stop anywhere between that point and the bottom, which is easier to do with long travel keys.
In my experience this works best with lighter keys (requiring less force). I found this out when messing around with a cheaper mechanical keyboard[0] by realising that I had just stopped pressing the keys all the way. I wasn't even looking to "type better" or whatever, I was just curious about all the mech hype and was trying one out.
Getting back to membrane keyboards, in my case a 2013 MBP, was actually painful because the keys actually require more force to move past the rest position, but they then become very soft, so all the force becomes speed which then stops all of a sudden when I hit the bottom. To me, it's practically impossible to not bottom out the MBP keyboard because of the short travel. Also, since I got used to pressing the keys with too little force, I find I actually miss a lot of the keys, which had never happened before.
> The "expensive" part isn't even true in all cases.
Being a cheapskate but wanting a mechanical keyboard with swappable switches, I bought a Redragon K552 off Amazon (88 key version) for $28. The Outemu reds are fine, but I swapped the alphabet and control keys for browns.
Frankly, the old Thinkpad keyboard had the best combination of travel and feel ever put together. I can understand people preferring a different trackpad, and not particularly liking the TrackPoint, but the keys themselves were bloody amazing. Low travel, low effort, pre-bottom feedback with no unnecessary noise. (I used to use the USB version of the keyboard with my desktop machines, even though I needed a separate number pad to make some of the work easier.)
I think I remember the keyboard you're referring to- the keys had squared corners and slightly concaved shape? The newer Thinkpad keyboards have much different- and worse- flat keys with rounded corners, and mushy. I've actually come to prefer the much shorter Macbook style keys nowadays.
That's the one. And I'm not fussy one way or another about the keycaps - I loved the old ones, but I can see the arguments for the "island" style as well - it's the switches underneath that were the thing.
Same! I like both but I have a slight preference for the flat ones given the small distance between the keys that make it easier to do many things - including repositioning my fingers (F and J have a nub, but the spaces between the keys make repositioning easier, especially with nails)
> What I’ve discovered over time is that I’m some kind of peasant when it comes to typing.
You and me both. I love low travel keyboard that make little noise. I've learned to accept my personal tastes, even if they don't match what's expected of me.
BTW I wonder how much of a learned preference mechanical keyboards are? At first, I thought they were preferred by older geeks because of a nostalgia factors, but they also seem popular with gamers.
I just don't understand. I have a friend on the spectrum who's (the best I can say) "physically violent when typing on his keyboard", to the point I wouldn't let him use my laptop as I'd fear for my keys.
He loves mechanical keyboards because they tolerate the abuse, and I just don't understand that: Isn't it better to not have to use that much force, and to not feel pain in your wrist and fingertips?
I wonder how much of the mechanical keyboard popularity is just gaming marketing? I also prefer lower key travel and quieter keys. It is just lest straining.
Take for example expensive gaming chairs that look like race car chairs. The side support makes no sense since gamers do not experience high g-forces. The side support lowers mobility which is actually really bad for your back.
> What I really like are thin, low travel laptop keyboards and trackpads instead of mice.
I feel the same way. Oddly enough, one of the best keyboards I have ever used is the Google Pixelbook's. It has truly spoiled my fingers for other keyboards.
One thing that messing around with mechanical keyboards has taught me is that I don't need a full keyboard. Compact TKL's work best for me. The Logitech MX Keys mini has a small enough form factor and comes closest to the Pixelbook's feel.
People do make smaller mice. But the downside is that they are generally cheapies, and not very robust. I have bought several over the years from supermarkets when I found I'd left my usual mouse behind.
When it comes to left-handed mice, it's often easier to obtain a symmetrical mouse, and change its handidness in software.
I use my mice so much that I have a problem with wireless mice forever running out of batteries. "Up to six months usage": bullshit. I'm lucky to get two weeks out of a set of batteries. So I stick to wired keyboards and mice.
Not sure what is your ideal small mouse, but there are some good small "gaming" mouses though:
Xtrfy MZ1
Coolermaster MM710
Razer Viper Mini
I'm currently using the first one and it is a great mouse. No special software, no BS, very light, great shape, and a cable you don't even notice that you have. Don't know about the rest, but before this one I had Logitech G Pro wireless, and it was great, but a bit too large.
I get the impression that mechanical keyboard people tend to be hard typers. The keyboard I have now uses cherry MX reds, and everything online suggested that these were super sensitive and you'd mis-type a lot. Only good for games.
But honestly, I could go for something even easier to press. I fail to actuate the left shift with my small finger quite a lot. Guess I have a light touch.
It depends? Cherry MX keys have very stiff springs IMO - it's definitely an oldschool feel. Low profile keys tend to have a shorter pre-travel, and may have lower actuation force.
They aren't available on a lot of keyboards, but I'm fond of Kailh Speed Copper switches. The travel and speed needed to activate the key is comparable to that of a mid-2000s Apple keyboard, but the tactile bump is much lighter, and there's a whole lot more travel after the activation point before you bottom the key out. I find this to be really cushy; I can type lightly but quickly, with very little impact because I'm not hitting the end of the key's range of motion with any force.
That said, the annoying thing here is that it's expensive to try keys. Even when computer stores have keyboards you can try out, they usually only have the run-of-the-mill red, brown and blue switches.
I don't love those because, at least for me, the feel of pressing a single key in a tester kit just isn't the same as typing on that keyswitch at speed.
They make sense in an office setting : I have RSI, and random rubber dome keyboards in the office are painful. Some of them are good, some of them super bad, and to me, bad essentially means painful. So, I found one I liked, and stuck to it, until it started having problems. Then I tried to replace it.
Unfortunately, this particular model of noname office keyboard was no longer available, and out of stock at my office. I realized that I had to do something : find a keyboard which would last a very long time, and with known physical properties ( actuation force, travel distance, etc), so that if I had to replace it later, it would be possible, and very easy.
In the end, it seems like I want mx red(45 linear), a split keyboard, flat (no angle) , silent, and as low profile as possible. Problem solved, there's plenty of those on the market!
Ever tried any linear type switches? Silent silver, silent red, silent black...
I am a guitar and bass player, and I love just having a linear switch that you can either hammer on and bottom out (=loud) or silently hover and move 1mm to activate it inaudibly. All depending on mood.
There are mechanical keyboards that are lower profile. I felt the same as you with my old Filco Majestouch-2 with MX Blues, but switched to a Logitech G915 with MX Browns and enjoy it a lot more.
The key travel is still the same, but I found that having the tops of the keys closer to the desk surface made it a lot less straining.
I also recommend a desk chair that lets your forearms rest so that your wrists are parallel with and just slightly above the desk surface, so that your fingers are sort of pecking down (L shape) instead of curled (J shape). For any keyboard, but it matters more the taller the keyboard.
Atreus keyboard with purple switches is the best ever imo, tiny (no hand movement to use anything, incl. numbers & arrows), great mechanical feel & not too much travel / noise. Ill never switch back!
I’ve tried a couple of mechanical keyboards at this point and I still don’t understand why people rave about Cherry MX blue switches. I have two of the exact same model of keyboard, one with Cherry MX blue and one with Cherry MX silent red. I much prefer the silent red for pretty much all situations. I suspect I might also like/tolerate the Cherry MX silver switches for their relative silence (still not as silent as the silent red though) and really short actuation distance.
For me, the Blues just feel perfectly snappy and quick. I really like the Red switches as well and if I was using a keyboard in an office environment, I'd probably go for Reds as the Blues have an audible click. But in the privacy of my home with no one else around, I find the typing experience to just be really fun and snappy on Blue switches. Your fingers can easily race over the keyboard (assuming you're not bottoming them out!)
Hah, at my last job my colleagues in the software development department were like waging a loudness war. Almost everybody, including myself, brought their own blue switch keyboard to the office. Being an open-floor office with no noise absorbing ceiling, it was funny as hell to take off your headphones and suddenly realize all the clicking and clacking happening around you.
Not all mechanical keyboards are loud. I have used fairly quiet cherry brown switches that nobody seemed to mind in my office settings. And not all require as much key travel and force. I am using louder and heavier keys now and I do agree with the general sentiment of your comment. I think the linked site has the best reviews but favors louder and heavier.
You get red silents too, which end up not just less loud but also feel wise a little closer to traditional keyboards (which might be seen as a negative by the hardcore mech crowd)
There are bluetooth mechanical keyboards with low profile, shorter travel, silent actuation, lightweight touch. The combination is there. Don't hate every mechanical keyboard.
Silent reds are what I use after a long time on clears and browns. Can't go back, reds are good for gaming but also far less effort for typing. Never found the tactile bump to be all that useful.
Same boat here. I'm eyeball some silent reds right now so if you could share what you got if you've had it for a while I'm all ears. Ideally I'd like to own a mechanical keyboard that just isn't going to have a key die on me.
They’re amazing. I picked them up a few months ago based on a random recommendation online, and couldn’t be happier. They’re 90% as satisfying to hit as Blues, but the noise level is similar to an Apple keyboard.
I worked at a company that gave people generous leeway to purchase computer gear they wanted.
We already had good computers and monitors, so fancy mechanical keyboards were the #1 purchase for most people. The mechanical keyboard fans nerded out over different switches and other hardware, spending countless hours doing research and trying out different types of keys.
And then slowly nearly everyone went back to regular old keyboards. There were a few die-hards who stuck to the mechanical keyboards, but most people eventually realized that the mechanical keyboard experience didn't really live up to the mechanical keyboard hype.
Some people love them, but the narrative that mechanical keyboards are objectively superior has gotten out of hand in recent years. In my experience, the average programmer doesn't really enjoy heavy mechanical keyboards over the long run.
(And before I get buried in comments that we weren't using the "right" switches or keys or whatever, trust me when I say that the office went through a lot of different variations and there was a lot of trading around)
I tried dozens of switches, key caps and layouts over the years. Soldering my own switches, trying different materials to soften the sound for the perfect “thocc”
It was/is a fun hobby but over time I grew out of it and now I am happy with a simple low profile keyboard.
My favourites (in no particular order) are: Apple Magic Keyboard with Numpad, Microsoft Surface keyboards, and the Logitech MX Keys.
I also used to really like the old Microsoft natural keyboards many, many years ago
Interestingly (to me anyway) is that even though I am British I have grown to prefer a US (ANSI) layout over an ISO layout. Not really sure why though if I am honest.
Buckled spring is about as mechanical as it gets though. I really hated those back in the day because of the clangy noise and the heavy resistance.
At the time I thought it was made to appeal to the tastes is mechanical typewriter users who were still very common in those days. I just had a cheap BTC foam-foil one which was really nice actually but did need a full take-apart and clean every year or so. But the touchwas so much lighter than the model Ms at my dad's work.
They feel very different than a Selectric I/II, but the Selectric III uses a similar keyboard action. A manual typewriter feels very very different (and is impossible for me to use, as someone who is a key pounder at times - like my cube mates could tell when I was writing an angry email by how my keyboard sounded, lol)
Some folks like to make a technical argument that no, it's not; the buckling spring on a model m keyboard isn't what actuates the keys on the Model M and similar keyboards; instead, the springs are mounted on top of a fairly traditional keyboard membrane layer, and it's the membrane layer that acts as the "switch".
So there are mechanical components and it mostly feels mechanical, but there's a membrane underneath it all that's what actually triggers the key presses.
It's kind of a pedantic argument, I guess? But they do say that "technically correct is the best kind of correct", so YMMV.
Sort of? they feel like different beasts, and both literally and functionally are different beasts.
It feels very very different than a mechanical key switch, to the extent that I love Model M's, but I'm generally meh about mechanical key switches (not enough auditory or physical feedback), a really good rubber dome keyboard is preferable to me over a mechanical key switch keyboard.
With a Model M, I type less harshly than on any other kind of keyboard, and thats because the keyboard gives me an auditory and physical feedback as soon as the keypress registers (back pressure rises right up to the trigger point, then it drops again after and then rises again right to the bottom out point). I regularly will bottom out a mechanical keyswitch keyboard, I never do on a Model M, and only occasionally do so on a rubber dome (it depends on the keyboard).
I've used enough mechanical key switch keyboard that have issues with key switches binding up, that I dont care for them, I shouldnt need to worry about lubricating my keyboard ;-)
I have an HHKB, but I think it's mostly fun (and I guess fashion?)
It's fun to nerd out about tools and play with them. There aren't a lot of ways you can customize standard hardware and keyboards are an easy case for all sorts of little things, different colors, etc. and you use it all of the time.
I don't think a lot of the details around key types matter in any serious way, but it's a fun computer related peripheral to play with.
As other posters mentioned, the recent "mechanical keyboard" subculture is all about show and boasting. It's not a surprise it seem to have boomed with gaming rigs and streaming channels.
The keyboard in these circles is all about status, not function.
If anything, I would compare it to "dubious" car mods like "cambered wheels".
Due to RSI I tried dozens of keyboards over the years. When I see these new keyboards being sold at these prices, especially the mechanical ones marketed with "improved layouts" and ergonomics, I have to laugh.
There's genuine difference between the various switch types, and I totally believe that for some people the acoustic feedback can be a valid alternative to the haptic one. Physical feedback while typing can really help. However it's clear to me most of these people are not really trying to solve an issue when you see reviews of switching performance after lubing...
>Due to RSI I tried dozens of keyboards over the years. When I see these new keyboards being sold at these prices, especially the mechanical ones marketed with "improved layouts" and ergonomics, I have to laugh.
If you haven't got to the opensource crowd of the mechanical keyboard world yet, you should. Ergonomic is one of the problems that people are trying to solve, and their solutions are opensource.
Oh I'm fully aware. This scene has been going on far longer than the current wave of mechanical keyboard craze (and it often doesn't emphasize switches as much either). I consider the two groups completely distinct.
MK are all hype (I own a Keycron and use a Fnatic gaming kb as daily work kb) but I would pay to have the feel of good old 20 years old rubber cheap keyboards again.
Layout and ergonomics are much more important than switches, my dream is to have a kinesis advantage with blue switches, but until then I much prefer my advantage over my regular keyboard with blue switches.
I've got a totally different experience... I own three HHKB: two HHKB Pro JP (for they have a narrower spacebar and more modifiers: so less thumb travel: I do have very close Japanese family but I don't speak Japanese) and one HHKB Pro 2 (the first I got).
They are, to me, out of this world. They ruined me forever in that I'll never be able to use something else than a Topre. I've got lots of IBM Model Ms, several Cherry boards (including the ultimate Cherry MX brown: the split MX 5000), I worked for years (when I was doing typesetting) on the best keyboard Apple ever made (Apple Extended Keyboard II is the name I think, from the early 90s): it wasn't bad.
But Topre is the best thing that ever happened to keyboards: I don't know how to put it in any other way.
My only gripe is that there are so little models to chose from: all the enthusiasts making their own keyboards are using Cherry MX switches but it's not because they're better than Topre, it's because they have no choice. There are many MX switches to choose from, yet, to me, they're not anywhere near close the greatness of Topre.
I'd totally be in the "build your own keyboard" community if I could easily build one using Topre switches. Heck, I considered cutting two HHKB Pro JP in half each to build me a split one... (it's doable).
Regarding the noise: I'm that guy crazy enough to go live somewhere quiet. Not the city, not full rural either because I don't want to hear animal farms and tractors. I'm the crazy one who'll splurge $$$ to get a high-end luxury car only for the sound insulation.
I'm also one of those dinosaurs who know what it was it was like to type in a room full of IBM Model M terminal keyboards (or similar) hooked to an AS/400.
Topre switches aren't that loud: no need to apologize for coworkers (moreover there are different Topre switches, some of which are quieter than others).
I'm not saying it's for everybody but I do really think anyone who's never tried one should try: it may be the keyboard switch they'll use until their last day.
I know I'm not the only one who's tried everything that exists out there and settled on Topre for life.
100%. i’ve tried everything. model m, model f, cherry, etc. nothing feels the same way the hhkb does for me. and the layout, as an emacs user, is sublime
i’d recommend you try a model f. despite the model m’s quality, it was actually made as a cheap alternative to the model f. the f is basically an m on steroids. i don’t prefer it to the hhkb for 2 reasons: (1) it’s ridiculously heavy, and i take my keyboard around with me (2) the layout doesn’t suit my workflow very well
Ditto, I have a Realforce R2 PFU Limited Edition and it's the best keyboard I've ever used. I don't think it's that loud and I could see myself using it in an office setting.
Before getting the Realforce I got two Filco Majestouch with brown switches. I used one of them in the office for quite some time and in retro respect I feel a bit sorry for my colleagues at the time. I still have and use those keyboards and the Realforce is much quieter.
Thinking about getting another Realforce and retire my Filcos. It's the "end game" keyboard for me.
I'm typing this comment on a Leopold Topre keyboard. It is far and away my favorite keyboard. I like it more than my Moonlander or any other mechanical keyboard I've ever owned.
I have an HHKB for many years. It’s still my favorite keyboard. It’s very personally and subjective. Most of the reasons for why I like it can be explained as I am used to it though - eg it’s layout.
I would be surprised if it starts to show wear within the next 10 years.
I've been using mine daily for around 10 years, and yes, you are entirely correct. If I could somehow clean all the coffee stains and grime it has accumulated it could probably pass off as new! And while I personally love the feel of topre keys, I can see why people might not like them - to each his own.
I just wish the new wireless HHKBs weren't so dang ugly!
> I've been using mine daily for around 10 years, and yes, you are entirely correct. If I could somehow clean all the coffee stains and grime it has accumulated it could probably pass off as new!
Same... Once in a while I took all the keycaps off of my HHKBs and vaccuum clean everything, then clean everything using q-tips, clean all the keycaps one by one. They're looking close to new despite heavy years of daily usage.
My HHKB Hybrid Type-S is definitely less noisy than MX-Brown (at least in WASD keyboards edition).
It may be more silent than my typing on macbook air, but it's hard to compare because it produces lower frequencies, definitely nicer sound than macbook keyboard to me and never even thought about it as noisy.
That's the exact HHKB I have and trust me, it's a noisy rattly mess compared to a good mech.
Like just lightly glide your fingers across the keys and you should feel/hear the rattle. That same rattle continues as you type, it's just mixed in with the sound of bottoming out.
For comparison, my mech is a solid feeling piece of aluminum, the keys have 0 wobble, and there are no rattles at all.
It's night and day, I could never go back to a HHKB.
I currently use an HHKB (for almost 10 years now) and I love it. But RSI has pushed me towards building my own split ergonomic ortho keyboard. What switches are you currently using on your daily driver mech? I got some 67g Zilents that I'm hoping give me a fairly close feel to my Topres when lubricated.
Having used every tactile from Zilents to Holy Pandas, these are the first switches I'd consider a strict upgrade over the competition (including Topres)
They're crisp, come in silent and unsilenced (I prefer silent), and have uncanny tolerances which results in a consistency Topres can't match.
I also have a type-s hhkb with the silencing o-rings and I’ve never thought that it sounds noisy.
I’ve experimented with various keyboards but for me the sound and the action of the hhkb are my favorite. I just wish it had the layout of the Leopold FC660C.
I examined mine carefully after reading your comments and.. did you buy it directly from HHKB? Maybe you have some counterfeit?
But you may be right, I'm not such a keyboard aficionado, I only had a few mechanical keyboards and maybe my standards are too low (or rather, at level which keeps me happy).
But as somebody else noted if you found the holy grail please share.
I never understood regular mechanical keyboards either - the fact that the switches are so thick, makes the whole assembly thick, which forces your wrists into a stress position - which is uncomfortable and I'm pretty sure will lead to wrist problems down the line. This also applies to thick "gaming" or "workstation" laptops as well. Call me an unwashed casual, but the most comfortable typing experience for me is on a Macbook. The fact that it's thin, the keys have little travel depth, and take very little to actuate allows me to comfortably type for extended periods of time.
Agree brown cherry keys are the best, and the Happy Hacking keyboard is probably overrated (never used one, thankfully never gave into the minor urge to buy one years ago).
I use a ROG Claymore now and it's great, the only real disadvantages being that the key caps are pretty flimsy, and they also come off too easily.
My MX-brown keyboard is definitely louder than my standard HHKB2, even though the MX got after market dampeners installed. Estimate about double the noise from the MX so surprising to hear you had the opposite experience.
Yes, I also settled with Mx browns after a long time trying to like Mx blues. It seems to be a common course of action among my coworkers. Also my blues started failing after 5 years, the browns seem to not be affected.
I have a HHKB2 Pro Blank for like 7 years now (heavy daily use). Its just awesome and it pretty much feels like day one. Keys are still very responsive. I love that thing.
I’m with you. I bought the HHKB and thought I’d love it but I didn’t. I also found the keys too “heavy” but I did buy the quieter model, so it never felt loud to me. I have gone back to an old cherry brown switch keyboard and have preferred it.
There is a type-s version if you want it to be quieter, or you can mod it yourself with some sound dampening rings.
Placing a folded microfibre cloth or a mousepad or something similar underneath the keyboard also dampens the sound quite a bit.
The mx board 3 is a remarkably good keyboard - I think I had bought it because it was fairly flat and thin, unlike most mech keyboards, and ended up enjoying it a lot more than expected.
The mechanical keyboard community is unfortunately really toxic. In addition to second hand accounts, I have a friend who’s a newbie in it who I encouraged to talk to people to get her bearings, and there was a basically unanimous chorus of “fuck off, until you have something to offer us you’re just a waste of time”. I think it’s partially because it’s largely gamers, and partially because it’s largely about perceived superiority, the pursuit of which also motivates shitting on newbies.
It makes me think, though, that one of these manufacturers might be well served by creating an attached forum, like HN, that’s well moderated and permits discussion of other brands. People are getting into mechanical keyboards for the products and the art and then being driven away from community participation; whoever can capture those people could likely become the default home of mechanical keyboard fans, and the attached brand the default brand.
Maybe it's changed in the past five years, but I don't recall being treated disrespectfully when I was active on /r/mk and deskthority (can't speak for geekhack, and I admittedly wasn't very active on deskthority).
As what switches/layouts/keycaps/etc. folks like are highly subjective and sometimes polarizing, I would often see people espousing opinion as fact. But no one treated me rudely even when I asked dumb questions in their daily discussion/advice threads.
I agree that much of the community consists of essentially bragging to other people about your own keyboards. But I saw even braggarts showing up in newbie threads to try and help other people get into the hobby.
Edit: I will add though, I tend to lurk for a while and gather knowledge before I even ask a newbie question. And I probably fit better with the kind of boys club tech bro culture that you're implying is prevalent (although I can't say I noticed this all too much).
I think it depends on where you hang out. A lot of the DIY mechanical keyboard Discord communities are tremendously helpful and open to newcomers for instance.
On the flipside of that is perhaps the geekhack forums, with a ton of elitists that sometimes have little patience for people that are not up to speed.
(Geekhack veteran here). My impression is that all kinds of people are on Geekhack and that all keyboard topics are welcome, but some users are definitely louder than others: mostly about pushing their preferences onto newbies and (mis)lead them into buying expensive things they won't like.
The forums I find worse are /r/mechanicalkeyboards on Reddit (elitist about customs) and Deskthority (elitist about vintage, and also unmoderated)
For mech newbies, I have found various PC-hardware forums to be the most welcoming.
Yeah, my experience is the opposite of the person you’re replying to. I’ve asked a couple questions on geekhack and received terrific responses (I was confused about the swappability of my switches). And the dischord I visited was filled with pepe memes and was pretty toxic.
(Unrelated, my personal story:) As is my habit, I got real into researching MKs for a few months, went through 2 (one I liked pretty well but I really missed dedicated home/end keys, and one that had switches that were slightly too tough to push and thus I kept missing letters) before I found my dream one: Mistel MD770 with MX Browns. It’s a split that I can shift around however I like. I love it. Oh, and to finish what I was getting at, as is my habit I can now stop thinking about MKs and will soon forget most everything I learned.
It seems toxic because we all started from nothing and learned things ourselves without having to make asinine posts asking the same questions over and over. The answers you seek are out there. Newbies are great until they start talking and pollute forums with low value discussions, and increasingly it seems even newbs never want to talk with other newbs, for these reasons.
I've had the opposite experience, everyone has been super helpful and friendly. Honestly, I think it's mostly people working in technology with deep wallets with most people purchasing for them themselves. They already have a forums at https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ and https://geekhack.org
I just bought a crappy razor keyboard specifically for gaming because I rather trash a cheaper keyboard versus my topre.
Topre switches are great! But can someone explain the draw of HHKBs? Aside from nerd street cred, that is. A lot of programmers swear by them, but I don't understand why.
Let's talk about the layout. As a Vim user, I need my CapsLock->Esc. Fine, so I'll remap Ctrl—but inexplicably, there are huge gaps where the regular Ctrl keys would be. There are no arrow keys or nav cluster, which means you need to use layers or key combinations to access them. I have no problem relearning how to use my keyboard, but dedicated keys are still faster and easier.
This is the part where an HHKB user says I'm doing it wrong. But that doesn't explain the inexcusable absence of Ctrl keys. And that doesn't explain the $300+ price tag when there are better keyboards for half the price.
The one nice thing about the layout is that it keeps the keyboard small. I'd gladly trade a little size for more keys though.
There are other Topre keyboards and Topre clones, as well as good linear switches out there. The switches are not really special anymore. Ten years ago, maybe, but not anymore. If I had to have Topre-like switches, I'd get clones with a better layout and Cherry-compatible stems. This isn't the mid 2000s anymore; there is actual competition in the mechanical keyboard market now.
I've been a happy HHKB user for almost 10 years and a Vim user slightly longer, and this is exactly what I do (though ctrl is already in the right place on the HHKB). I believe it was one of the first things I figured out in Vim, because it was so annoying to me to have to go all the way up to the escape key all the time. Ctrl+[ is such a pleasant little chord to hit.
I agree it's too minimalist, but it's fine for vi. Just use fast pressed double letters to escape insert mode like evil-escape does. The control position is horrifying as an emacs user, though, there's no way to palm press. Terrible fn position as well.
> There are no arrow keys or nav cluster, which means you need to use layers or key combinations to access them. I have no problem relearning how to use my keyboard, but dedicated keys are still faster and easier.
"Easier" is subjective and so I won't address it. As to "faster", I have ♢+{🄸,🄹,🄺,🄻} mapped to {up,left,down,right} making them much quicker to access than reaching for a dedicated cluster of arrow keys.
The ♢ key is to the immediate left of the spacebar and is quickly reachable by my left thumb. 🄹,🄺,🄻 are under the fingers of my right hand in its default home row position and 🄸 is only a very short distance away.
Before I got my Happy Hacking I had both control and escape on caps lock, but with HH, I have no problem using the default escape, which is closer there than on regular keyboards.
For me, one nice thing about working from home all the time now is that I don't have to listen to everyone's annoyingly loud mechanical keyboards. I kinda hope this fad dies before I have to work in an office again...
We have a bunch of old Sun Microsystems mechanical keyboards at the office, and they're not loud. I use a Cherry MX Brown equipped keyboard and it's not loud either.
Does everyone use "Blue" switches over there?
BTW, I don't believe mechanical keyboards are a fad. They're much better than the better rubber dome keyboards. Especially as they age.
Out of curiosity, have you done typing tests? I did once with some keyboards I was comparing. For me there was a difference. At least in the moment. It's possible I was just better on one because it was similar to what I had already been using.
I've used a lot of keyboards in my life. The latest rubber domes I've used are either Microsoft and Logitech. Currently I'm using two keyboards daily, a Microsoft Sculpt (rubber dome) and a Logitech G710+ (Cherry MX Brown).
Logitech is much more consistent, softer, strains my hands less, allows for faster typing.
Rubber dome keyboards become heavier as they age, because their key stems wear down. They become extra heavy when you don't use them for some time, because grease tends to harden as they age. This is not the case with the mechanical switches. They just behave the same, all the time.
On the worst case, a rubber dome keyboard needs so much force and has so much friction that it sprains your hand/fingers (Dell's low end bundled keyboards are an health hazard).
The majority were rubber dome, and all the Sun keyboards I own are, but they made some mechanical type 5’s. They pop up on eBay once in a while. I am not sure the deal with their existence.
I personally use MX Browns at home, but they're not significantly louder than a full size, well used membrane keyboard. Membrane keyboards tend to get noisier as they age and their stems wear down and their lubricants degrade.
On the other hand, there are far more silent mechanical switches available. There are "Silent Brown" switches, "Red" switches without any tactile feedback, or "Silent Red" switches, with even less noise.
If I decide to change my office keyboard one day, I'd buy Red or Silent Brown switches, not because standard Browns are actually annoyingly noisy, but we as people are under stress in the office and get irritated sometimes, and I want to be polite.
As I said before, mechanical keyboards are not about the noise they make primarily, they're much more comfortable to use and they last a long time. Oh, I like the sound of my Browns, but it's just a secondary effect.
There are good mechanical switches that are silent. For example Cherry MX Silent Red. I also have a keyboard with Cherry MX Browns with o-rings to dampen them a little bit.
There is no excuse, other than being totally obnoxious prick, for using a loud keyboard in an open office.
I thought so too, so I brought my 1989 Model M and asked everyone around me if they were okay with it, and that the first complaint I heard about it I would get rid of it.
Slowly after that, people started bringing in all kinds of mechanical keyboards.
If you think that's bad, wait until you hear about these people (sales, customer service, project managers) who actually talk on the phone while in the office.
You'll miss the sound of cherry mx blues in no time.
When i joined my current company, IT asked me what keyboard i wanted, and when i asked for a mechanical one, they told me my manager would need to sign off on that!
It depends on if they're quiet or not. My modded HHKB Pro2 is not any louder than the usual laptop keyboards are.
MX Blue switches should be banned from offices though.
Silent MX Blacks are uncomfortably quiet when you type on them. I find the Zilent 67g to be my favorite switch. It hits all the right check boxes for sound and comfort.
The fact that "no one bats an eye" doesn't mean they're not internally annoyed by the key sounds. In my office, there was this person who used a cheap noisy keyboard. It bothered us, for sure, but we didn't bring it up to his attention.
Yeah, like, I'm not going to ask anyone to use a different keyboard. I'm an adult, I can deal with it.
But I do think mechanical keyboards are way too loud, way overpriced, and way overhyped. (But that's just my opinion. I'm sure people would say the same thing about some of the stupid stuff that I'm into.)
Different keyboards are different, as are workplaces. I would never bring a keyboard with clicky switches to a shared workplace. There are also ways to make mechanical keyboards as silent as a classic office keyboards.
The notion that a capacitive switch is somehow expensive to manufacture because the PCB is allegedly "special" (doubt) seems odd to me. All other capacitive sensing stuff uses bog-standard PCBs with nothing special about them at all and it's not like the rubberdome is hard to manufacture either (considering that a more complex kind of rubberdome mat is the centerpiece in cheap rubberdome membrane keyboards).
And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities.
Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it.
> And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities.
This has nothing to do with ethnicity, but mostly work ethics and attention to detail. It is true that this may not apply to all Japanese products, but they are regarded as good manufacturers, akin to German products in Europe.
> Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it.
This is true, they are a luxury item. It is also true that they are inherently more durable than other keyboards based on rubber domes, and perhaps not as durable as many other high end mechanical keyboards.
A couple years ago, during one of my trips to Japan, I went to BICamera and tried some Topres. They are built like tanks, no doubt about it, and the feeling of the heavier switches was rather pleasant. I still like my mechanical keyboard better (have a thing for heavier switches), but I cannot deny it was a quite good product. Perhaps not worth $300, but I could see them in the $150 to $200 range.
This, by the way, is immediately apparent if you are traveling in Japan. You get the impression that the Japanese don't goof off at work. This is especially noticeable with folks who work outside: road work, construction, janitors, etc. Quick, to the point, and you won't see anyone leaning on their shovels like in the US. My already high regard for the Japanese has improved even more after a couple of weeks there.
I've taken apart Topre style boards before. I can absolutely confirm that the internals work differently from a classic rubber dome board.
I'm not about to argue that the different mechanism makes Topres somehow special or worth the price of admission, but there's nothing "alleged" about it. I do love the sound they make, though.
They are different, but it's true the capacitive part is hardly necessary for the feel.
Unlike normal mechs, there is almost no chance you're not bottoming out a Topre anyways, so the actuation point could be at the very bottom of travel and still work the same.
Also I've tried $40 rubber dome Keytronics that had identical snappy Topre action, and the result was so similar I doubt most Topre users would be able to tell them apart (they might even prefer the Keytronic, the keys were much tighter)
My father still uses a generic Dell keyboard he got with a PC in 2002 because he didn’t like all the media keys on the keyboards that came with new computers.
It also depends on how many typed. Also, IIRC cheap bundled keyboards in 2002 was better quality compared to in 2021. I remembered membrane keyboard bundled with server in 2005 was comfortable.
> And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities.
I think the Japanese part is being brought up to talk about the cost, as Japan is a higher cost of living country and has higher labour costs as a result. Lots of mass produced "Japanese" goods aren't actually produced in factories with Japanese workers as a result, so the fact that the manufacturing is only done there I think is just highlighting a supply-chain reason for the higher cost (using labour in Japan), without making an argument that the quality comes from that supply chain decision.
IBM keyboards were also astronomically expensive, the Model M was around $250 in 1985 which is something like $600 in 2021 dollars. The modern Unicomp incarnations made on the same tooling are not as nice as the OG Model M's, but they're a reasonable approximation and still only $100.
I have no doubt the pricing on the HHKB and other Topre boards provides a very comfortable profit margin. Which is fine, if people are happy with paying for them then it doesn't hurt my feelings. There are other equal quality boards for significantly cheaper, though that's IMO of course.
In my opinion it's not really that high quality compared to the competition anymore (though it's still a good keyboard). They used to be, but the high end keyboard market has gone nuts the past few years and the HHKB is not really that competitive anymore for the money. They still have the reputation appeal and have kept the price high despite tougher competition, which is working for them but that is why people criticize them.
Not that I necessarily agree with that take, like I said if people are still paying what they ask for them then that's great for them.
And the Model M is actually the result of a series of cost-reduction measures from prior IBM keyboards, and received numerous cost-cutting changes during its production cycle.
Though I'd guess it was a standard accessory - you gonna order an IBM AT PC without a keyboard? Probably not. And that AT would have been around 5000 $ or so, so 250 $ for the keyboard isn't that outrageous. Computers were expensive.
For newer versions, the SK-8835 currently goes over $200 used - actually there's one at $199 on ebay with missing keys :)
It was my favorite until I got a new thinkpad, with island keys: even if both are membrane, they are just so much better than the mechanical alternatives!
The really inexcusable part is they killed off Lite models and jacked up the entry price to where they are.
My Lite2 PS/2 Kana-less JP from well before the earthquake is still fine and it was “was $49.99” anywhere back then. I know some RealForce US are real good but no way I’m spending $200 on a keyboard.
Re: "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards," earlier this year I ordered a Leopold FC980C. It arrived with a warped case that would not lay flat on my desk (tested on multiple surfaces to make sure the problem wasn't with my desk).
Yes, true, Leopold is Korean, however the C boards with Topre switches are made in Japan, though some sources say made in China and inspected in Japan.
I believe Leopold sells a similar line of non-Topre keyboards as well, certainly possible that the cases are manufactured elsewhere and imported/sent to various factories based on switch type.
Regardless, if final assembly/inspection does occur in Japan, it was quite disappointing to receive a keyboard with such an obvious defect, especially at that price point.
> You’ve seen people test Topre boards such as the HHKB, Realforce, Leopold, and some Topre-clone boards too, and many rave about the way they sound and feel.
No, I haven't heard of Topre or seen any reviews until now.
> Topre boards, why are they so expensive? ... $250 ...
Although I suspect many keyboard enthusiasts might usually hover in the $100-$200 range for their pieces, $250 for parts and labor isn't that expensive. The Kinesis Advantage is $350, the Ergodox Moonlander is $370, even Apple's magic keyboard for the iPad is $300 so a $250 isn't cheap, but certainly isn't astronomical compared to what's out there. A lot of cheaper keyboards can be had, but they usually come at the cost of poorer quality or require additional labor and customization.
Thanks for the interesting rabbit hole. I’ve been using a split ortho keyboard and while I’m quite happy with it I think there’s a small bit of FOMO whenever I see a unique design. Applies to the Topre and the Datahand equally: would be curious to try them, but probably not enough to procure one.
Yeah, hard to get them nowadays. They never made very many of them and the remaining ones are 20 years old now. There have been attempts to re-create it over the years, getting the switches to feel as good as the originals is probably the most difficult part.
There are many people in this thread recommending cherry mx red/brown/blue. There are also as many stating mechanical keyboards are not for them, often referring to same switches.
Those that would like to explore a bit more, in the custom keyboard world the aforementioned switches are mostly considered starters. More popular, people use switches like Gateron Black Ink V2, Alpacas, Tangerines for linear. U4T, Zealios, Kiwis for tactiles. And about 100 different alternatives available based on taste [0].
Combined with a more premium quality board that fits your typing angle and keycaps in a profile you like (you have cherry profile but also KAT, KAM, DSA, and many more to fit your liking) it may differ considerably from pre-built options.
Not saying it will be for you, but discarding mechanical keyboards on base of what the pre-built market offers is not the best measure of things. It is like saying you hate scissor switch keyboards because you typed on an Acer laptop once.
P.s. Be careful as you will quickly learn topre keyboards are not that expensive.
I have been through the whole mechanical keyboard phase and concluded that there are two keyboards I will never give up. Matias quiet click (mini) and my old trusty dome with slider of some brand I dont know (although googling around I suspect it is BTC).
The matias has the nice tactility of a snappy rubber dome with the benefit of not having to bottom out. I DO bottom out, but I am such a light typer that I sometimes miss keystrokes on other keyboards.
The BTC (??) is sort of a poor man's topre. I like it a lot more than my friends realforce which hardly seems to have any tactility.
Silent switches saw quite an uptake since past two years or so. Never had matias quiet click myself but based on YouTube vids I'd say you can go a whole lot quieter without losing tactility these days. I run an office setup with U4S these days, these are good to go out of the box if you don't like to mod them. They are so silent your coworkers keyboards will sound loud in comparison. Their tactility is still awesome. If you go less tactile you'd have zilents v2 which require some lubing to remove annoying spring pings but after are a good option. Silent alpacas are like a whisper when you prefer linear.
With brands like keychron and ducky now providing hotswap options on Q1 or Ducky 3 entering custom builds became a lot easier as these provide big runs which allow you to buy from a shop rather than joining limited group buys with nowadays 6-12 months lead times (and selling out in minutes or taking raffles). It isn't the quality of say Monokei, TGR or Keycult but that is expected for the budget range they play.
Having gone beyond entry market years back I'd say it today still brings me the most joy of any hardware upgrades I make to my computer setup. Walking up to my desk seeing a full custom is something I like.
The matias quiet click arent really meant to be very silent. I think it alludes to the tactility of their clicky switch minus the click. Their quiet linears are dampened light linear switches, and sound less than most rubber domes.
Matias boards are just no-nonsense boards for typists. I dont like fiddling with my keyboard. No keycaps. No lubing. No swapping switches. I have done that. It is a distraction for me. I like typing on my matias board. When that dies I will get another one or maybe just use my old no-brand dome-with-slider keyboard (probably BTC) that I have used since 1994.
After five years, I gave up my Matias quiet click due to its abysmal reliability. I had three units during that period: my original and two replacements under warranty. I love the keyboard and their customer service. But the interruption and administrative hassle were too much.
I use a Leopold with Topre 45g silent switches now. It’s not as nice IMO but it works all the time.
You share that experience with what seems a lot of people. The quiet clicks seem to have chattering issues.
I have probably been lucky. A friend had one switch that chattered, but I opened it up and cleaned out some of the lube and it was fine.
That is why I usually recommend the clicky switches. They seem to not have that problem. They feel even nicer to type on IMO, but I am not the kind of guy to spend $150 on a keyboard when I have one that I like (a 2015 secure pro that never had issues).
> Not saying it will be for you, but discarding mechanical keyboards on base of what the pre-built market offers is not the best measure of things.
What about buying a single $25 off-brand keyboard with off-brand cherry MX keys and liking it well enough that I can't justify even considering a new keyboard with different switches that I might like more?
I happen to own a Topre keyboard: Leopold FC660C, the silent version.
I don't think it's expensive or a luxury item at all. If you indulge in mechanical keyboards with switches, your expenditures can easily go beyond $250 price tag: you buy expensive, special, limited supply switches because most switches are shit, and then you have to lube all of those or pay someone else to do it because otherwise it feels and sound like shit, then you have to buy a good case and plate because otherwise it sounds shit. Plus trad switches really don't like dust. I bought my FC660C and never did anything else, it works great, it feels great, it looks great, all by default, and it's dust proof.
> I don't think it's expensive or a luxury item at all.
It's elite/niche so it costs more that regular things you can get off ebay.
I got my last TrackPoint Keyboard II Bluetooth 4Y40X49493 openbox (like new) for $40 shipped. It's silent, battery powered, slim, travels with me all the time.
At this pricepoint, I've a few similar ones, for when I need (say to use with my tablet) - quantity has a quality all its own
> or pay someone else to do it because otherwise it feels and sound like shit
I didn't waste more than a minute when I removed my $40 Thinkpad keyboard from its box.
> it works great, it feels great, it looks great, all by default.
Same, but how much did you pay? And how reasonable is it to get one for your tablet, and another one you'll leave in your car?
> I don't think it's expensive or a luxury item at all.
They are expensive though. I own three (I've got several computers and I take one with me when I travel) and I love them (daily driver since years and years and years: I can throw anything at them, they're rated for 150 million keypresses... per key) but... I do hate the pricepoint.
Just checking on Yahoo Japan for an HHKB Pro JP like I have: 40 800 JPY / 350 USD / 320 EUR.
Common... However good it is, it's still just a keyboard.
The criticism on the pricepoint / luxury item: I do agree with.
I have two Topre keyboards. I love my RealForce whole-heartedly, but my HHKB is nowhere near the same typing quality. The HHKB is still nice, but I only use it as a portable alternative (I have a bluetooth model). The RealForce feels easy, fluid, and solid, somehow.
I have the RealForce R2 with variably-weighted switches and it is such a pleasant experience to type on that I don't even bother looking at other keyboards any more - there's nothing else I want from a board.
What do you use yours for? I love my FC660C but I really wish I could store all my Karabiner mods on it. Like double shift for caps lock, or caps lock as escape when pressed alone but control as a modifier.
The controller comes with the TMK firmware, but the real way to use it is to put the fork of TMK, QMK [0], on it.
You can do pretty much anything you can think of. Tap for escape and hold for Ctrl on Caps Lock is in fact something I got on mine. I also coded it for function keys on double tap for the number row, F13 on tap and F14 on double tap on the left corner key (Left Ctrl or Caps Lock depending on your preference) etc.
And that's really basic, people put whole macros in there.
Long time Topre user here. I have four of those now, had a few more over the years. The best for me is the 45gr uniformly weighted realforce pfu ltd - which allows, with a keypress, to change the actuation point. More shallow for gaming, deeper for typing.
One thing I cant agree with is the claim of superior QC. I had to RMA one due to faulty pcb - pressing Num Lock would cause all the leds to light up, and had another that came with a fairly sticky key (m). Not going back to any other switches though, but i dont think there is any particular care given to them during manufacturing.
Its subjective. I have a $1200 Topre modded with a Norbaforce case and custom domes, pretty much as good as it gets, but its not even close to my favorite keyboard. Its nice but I'd rank Zeal tactile switches, Box Jade, Box Navy, Tactile Alps, Blue/White/Amber Alps, and Zeal linear ahead of them.
So far I like Amber Alps the best by a large margin. They are kind of hard to find though. Like I said though its subjective. There are some people that try every key switch under the sun and still like MX Browns the best. There is no "best" switch and there is no wrong choice.
Also, for the uninitiated, a Topre is a unique type of rubber dome keyboard. Unlike most rubber domes, they actually feel quite nice and better than many mechanical switches. They aren't technically a mechanical switch though.
Looking at the replies here, one thing for sure, keyboards are a very personal thing.
I have a Topre RealForce BTW. I've chosen it after trying out a bunch of keyboards, some Cherry MX, rubber domes, scissor switches, IBM Model M, ALPS, etc... My first reaction with the Topre was "oh, that one feels really nice" then I looked at the price and "wtf?!". I eventually bought it, because I didn't find anything better, and compared to a good PC, it is not that big of an expense.
I've been using it for 8 years now, and I expect to keep it for many more. Also the author is now wrong saying the cable is the weak point, I had to change it last year, a wire broke inside, which surprised me because despite not being fancy, it looked like a good cable. I blame the way it channels from under the keyboard and the lack of strain relief.
BTW, before my RealForce, my keyboard was a Keytronic KT2001, which I really liked despite being a lowly rubber dome keyboard. In fact, maybe that's the reason why I love Topre so much. Topre switches are essentially better rubber domes.
I have a CM Novatouch (Topre switches, Cherry-compatible stems) that I got for 99$ before it went out of production and it’s still my daily driver. It was quite noisy out of the box, but with silencing o-rings (that I got from a specialized eBay shop and cost almost as much as the keyboard) it became quiet and perfect. Not sure why they stopped making it — maybe precisely because it was too inexpensive for a Topre and it was undercutting the RealForces…
As someone with a Topre Realforce and a reproduction Model F capacitive buckling spring, I say that layout matters much more and I use a fully custom ergonomic keyboard (Mitosis layout but not split) with Kailh Box Navy switches, which are good enough.
I'm still faster on buckling spring or Topre though, despite daily driving the ergo. Their lighter force and deeper stroke (4mm versus 3.5 for the Kailhs) just are better for extremely fast typing.
I think you've touched on something that I had only experientially known - that increasing key travel to an extent can actually increase typing speed. On the MacBook butterfly keyboards with nearly zero travel, my typing speed is so slow. But on a board with Cherry MX Blues/Red my typing speed increases significantly
If you are looking for quiet tactile mechanical switches, the best current option is getting Outemu U4 switches (current best silent tactile switches) and replacing the springs in them with 55gram TX springs. It’s about 2 hours long project for a full-size keyboard but is the best you can do now if you want silent switches that have distinct tactile feedback and are yet easy on the joints.
After years of climbing and grappling I am very wary of keyboards that trigger some kind of sensation in my joints. Heavy switches for 6-8 hour typing sessions seem like a recipe for some life—altering RSI
I have purchased and tried many of the high-end keyboards over the years. I always switch back to my IBM Model M made in 1985. I have a couple of spares for parts. Every few years, I take it apart and put it in the dishwasher.
update: I just flipped it over and see that the particular Model M I'm typing on is from 1991.
Not sure how exact you're looking for but I believe this company Unicomp[1] bought the rights and manufacturing equipment for the model M keyboards after IBM and Lexmark stopped making them. I don't have one but allegedly they're still made in USA to the same standards as the old IBM ones.
I've been really impressed with Wooting keyboards for gaming after trying many alternatives. (My daily driver for coding is a Kinesis Advantage2 due to RSI, but they suck for games.)
Has anyone tried both Wooting and Topre? Or for that matter, Wooting and anything they liked as much or better?
Negative data point, Wooting Two HE keyboard right now is best one I've used. Comparing it to a das keyboard mx brown, couple of mechanical gaming, and a smattering of modern apple keyboards.
Also a callout to Wooting wrist pads, they are sturdy, easy to clean, and feel amazing. The only bad part is availability in different sizes/colors, I've looked for similar products, but no dice.
> Or for that matter, Wooting and anything they liked as much or better?
I got my Wooting 2 HE yesterday, and it feels great, but I think I still prefer the Cherry MX low profile speed switches that I bought by accident (I thought I was buying a replacement for a keyboard with full profile MX speed switches, but I was happily surprised to learn that I preferred the low profile switches). Adjusting the activation height to 1.0mm gets me most of the way there, though.
I'm flagging this post. I encourage you to do the same.
It's definitely an advert.
And if it was a review, it's a really bad one. There's way too many adjectives without the context of actual evidence supporting the claim.
> "Rigorous Quality Standards"
Corporate buzzwords with nothing substantiating that claim.
Also, as opposed to what? Other companies not having rigorous quality standards?
> many rave about the way they sound and feel
False consensus effect via argumentum ad populum.
And plenty more...
Money/access/goods has almost certainly changed hands.
Maybe but: I was so into mechanical keyboards, researched all the keycaps and switches and different layouts, configurations etc. It can be a huge hobby. Then I bought a Realforce Topre and haven't looked at a single mechanical keyboard thing since. It's just a seriously good keyboard.
After about my 6th mech, I finally ordered one from Amazon to see what all the fuss was about. I put it back in the box after 2 minutes, and returned it. What can I say? I like blues. It just comes down to what you prefer.
Seems like that's not nearly enough time to really give a whole different kind of keyswitch? For me, at least, I need at least a few days with a new keyboard before my muscle memory is used to it; up until that point it's guaranteed to feel weird and uncomfortable no matter what.
Well... If your thing is really clicky, then indeed Topre may not be for you. I do like blues too and I used Model Ms for years (even way clickier than blues) before finding Topre switches. Clicky switches lovers are, I think, a category of their own.
I like MX blues because they provide that perfect clicky sound with a reasonably low actuation force. Other MX switches are either not clicky or are too tiring for my fingers with their higher actuation force or don't provide sufficient feedback. So I use the blues with o-rings that provide the right mix of clicky-ness, force and dampening.
I had a really fancy Topre keyboard. Had the fancy key caps, the acrylic dust cover, the whole nine yards. It made typing an absolute nightmare. I don't know why people want massive keys with massive amounts of travel. The slim Apple Magic keyboard (w/o numpad) is the best keyboard I have ever used.
I recently tried the latest one and while great, the late-2000s model (the one with 2 AA batteries) is my all-time favorite. It’s the one with the longest (but still very short compared to a mechanical keyboard) key travel. I realized this is my preference as my MacBook butterfly keyboard started to fail and I resorted to carrying my old keyboard with me. I decided to buy this model and its wired counterpart whenever I see one in good condition with my preferred keyboard layout. I’ve been using both for more than 10 years now and they have no issues but I’m happy to so far have 4 spares. Total cost of the spares was less than one of the latest magic keyboards. But I’ve noticed the price of used ones is starting to increase.
Some people see washer and dryers as appliances, others it's a very big deal and hobby, just like keyboards. I say this typing with some holy pandas which is gibberish to some and others know exactly what that is.
I skipped the whole mechanical keyboard acquisition cycle (thanks to a comment or two from HN), bought a Niz, totally happy with it and best keyboard I've used, haven't been tempted to keep searching.
10 year Topre user (Realforce 87U 30-45g variable)- recently picked up a Niz and it's been an absolute dream. Tactile, light (35g uniform), quiet. This keyboard is awesome.
Could never find Cherry MX Blue/Browns which worked for me- always triggered RSI in my outer wrists. Chiclets caused problems in my fingertips from bottoming out.
Topres gave me a decade of heavy coding after battling RSI and I love them for that. But this Niz is making me smile. I'll get another Niz before I go back to my Realforce.
I’ve tried mechanicals (Cherry switches), various rubber domes, the IBM buckling spring keyboards, and the Apple scissor switches. Then I was recommended the Niz by a friend, and it’s the closest thing to ideal I’ve ever used. To be honest, owning mechanicals made me realize how gimmicky they are. They distract me from my own writing, and can be a huge pain in the ass to coworkers or close ones trying to sleep. Unusable during work calls. No such issues with these nice electrocapacitive boards. I anticipate I’ll stick with them for a long time.
Good and accurate article! Sums up why I love Topre boards. They are just special. I love the key-feeling. All the other things are bonuses (quality manufacturing, made in Japan, will last me 15 years etc.).
I've been on quite the mech board journey since March 2020. Have owned and resold:
- Filco majestouch ninja (cherry brown)
- Microsoft Sculpt
- Kinesis Advantage 2 (KB600 - cherry brown)
- Kinesis Advantage 2 LF (KB600LFQ - cherry silent red)
- Topre Realforce 87UB (variable weight switches)
- Topre Realforce 87USW (variable weight silenced switches)
and after all that, i've landed back on the good old Apple Magic keyboard (sans numpad).
I can't really explain why, other than to draw an analogy with my vim configuration. I've found that the more experience I accumulate (almost 20yrs to date), the simpler my vim configuration has become. To the extent that my init.vim is <100 loc from somewhere near 500 at its peak.
I view moving back to the apple keyboard is another simplification of my setup, becoming less reliant on a special keyboard / layout, although this was never my intention at the start. It's comfortable and I can type >100wpm accurately and without undue stress on my fingers or wrists. (caveat - I touch type and use mostly correct fingers for each key).
What i'm realising typing this out is that my loop through the wonderful world of mechanical keyboards was driven from an undercurrent of being generally bored, both from WFH COVID lockdowns and being bored with my current work assignment. The devil makes work eh...
In defense of the site, the mechanical keyboard hobby consists of a lot of buying things. New keyboards, new keycaps, new artisans, new cases, new cords, new switches... I'm probably missing a few of the other things people buy. So it would make sense that a blog related to it would be giving advice on what to consider when you're next shopping for something keyboard-related.
Not in defense of it, the site does seem to be the typical blog model of review and drop an affiliate link.
To me it reads as a reasonably comprehensive overview of Topres. It may or may not be an ad, but the question of the article is one I’d expect someone discovering mechanical keys to ask at some point.
Topre’s are different to the typical cherry style, and well regarded by those who have them. They also rarer than cherry-style keyboards, so there’s more mystery about them.
I’d wager most people will be out of the loop on them, they’re a niche product of a niche hobby. I’m still yet to try them, but maybe one day.
I have a couple of HHKBs and fully agree. They’ve seen a ridiculous amount of use in the past 5 years and show no signs of giving in any time soon. Expect that if any part of it fails, it’ll be the USB mini-B connector.
I have an 11 year old and a 4 year old [HHKB]. Used/abused for 8+ hours/day, 5+ days/week. For the first 7 years of its life the first HHKB was transported to and from work every day, which can’t have helped it’s lifespan. Regardless they are still both going strong, though the keys on the older board are noticeably softer.
Hah, I have the same two and I agree. Realforce for the office since it's quieter and HHKB for home and games. My only complaint about the HHKB is the arrow and page up/down keys are in really strange places that took forever to build into muscle memory.
Why bother? It is one checkbox in the settings and then every keyboard has caps as control.
If you customize lots of things and carry your keyboard to many different computers, I guess doing it in hardware is marginally "better" than just using software, but ctrlcaps is common enough that the software is just there by default.
That’s the beauty of custom keycaps and boards with customizable firmware! Almost every premium GMK, ePBT, etc. keycap set will come with a Caps Lock replacement key labeled Control. It’s lovely.
So I just googled to see if my keyboard (Realforce 88u) has customisable firmware and apparently it has internal dip switches to configure the behaviour of ctrl and Windows keys!
> There is low demand for these boards, which means the price doesn’t need to go down at all.
Low demand keeps prices high? I guess I kind of understand what the author's point is, but that's a somewhat counterintuitive argument. It's not so much the low demand that keeps prices high; it would seem that low demand prevents the product from reaching a level of mass production that would exploit economies of scale which might lower unit costs.
I had a buckling spring for years, and people kept telling me mechanical is just as good, or in many cases, better. Wrong and not even in the same league.
I'm using blue switches today only because I can't find a backlit buckling spring. If such a thing comes to existence, I'll be first in line.
Airline check-in desks, I think, is their reason for being. A lot of typing done there, 24/7, with customers that are about to miss their flight waiting in line. If the keyboard goes down, money can be lost. So they use keyboards that don't break.
The reliability of the keyboard doesn't matter for software engineers. You just get another $20 one out of the supply closet while you get your next cup of coffee.
(I used to be a big Topre keyboard fan and owned quite a few. I didn't buy them for reliability, though, I bought them because I liked them. That's not a good "enterprise" reason, though, which is why they're not standard-issue for software engineers.)
For 90% of companies, increasing software engineer productivity by just a few dozen bps is worth thousands of dollars a year. On top of a $4k laptop, $2k screens, etc. a $400 keyboard is totally reasonable. If your company won't let you get stuff like this they're probably being irrationally stingy.
I've been in this business a long time and the idea that we are limited by the typing speed of the programmer is just about the biggest crock I've heard so far. Thinking of the concrete details from Google's 2016 paper where they reported a gross commit rate of 1000 lines of code per engineer per week, inclusive of large-scale automatic refactoring and configuration changes that were 75% of the volume. That leaves your typical engineer on the hook for just 50 lines of code per day which honestly that still sounds a little high. Programmers are limited by cognition, not I/O rate.
I'm limited by typing speed. I can type about 120 words per minute, but there are still times when my idea is not instantly conveyed to the computer. In that case, I'm forgetting new ideas while interfacing with a piece of machinery.
1000 lines of code per engineer per week is probably a factor here. Think about a flow where you're bottlenecked by typing something. You then don't finish the thing because you have a sprint planning meeting. You come back and forget where you left off, and never check in the code you half-wrote. If you finished before the meeting, then your line-modified count would have increased by 50 lines or something. But now you spent an hour doing nothing, as far as the lines-of-code counter says. That's a problem!
Typing speed is back pressure on ideas. When a system is overloaded, it should apply back-pressure so that the producer produces less. That's what your keyboard does. The question is: do you want back-pressure against your ideas? If not, you need to add a buffer that can account for the bursts. Typing faster is that buffer.
I think an honest evaluation would reveal that the interrupted program and the forgotten ideas stood even chances of being of negative value anyway. Getting the programmer away from the keyboard is an organizational defense mechanism.
"Net lines of code" has ~nothing to do with amount of time spent typing, and a good keyboard lets me type without wasting brain power on keyboard-related proprioception.
This reminds me of my amazement to learn from the YT teardown movement (AvE, etc) that professional tradesmen often consider a topline Makita or Dewalt cordless tool to be good to go for one job (e.g.,a single commercial high-rise building) and after that, it's time to get (aka, bill for) a new one.
I believe software folks could take some cues from that practice.
It will be tough explaining to finance why i am ordering 400USD keyboards for my team members. Maybe it is more common in smaller companies where the owner orders these special items.
I've tried (and designed and built) tons of mechanical keyboards, including various ergo configurations. None of them get any use except my two HHKBs. The new HHKB Pro S is easily worth the $350 or whatever. One cool feature - you can be simultaneously paired to 4 devices over Bluetooth and switch between those four and USB from the keyboard. It's like having a built-in KVM.
The world of mechanical keyboards is really expansive, and actually a lot of fun. I'm currently driving a RAMA M60 which has the same HHKB layout, but uses Cherry MX key switches. It's also solid metal and weighs like 10 lbs.
Hey psyclob , i also use the same brand and they are literally perfect for online typing jobs. because in typing practice smooth and clean keyboards plays a vital role. I always practice on https://cpsandtypingtest.com/5-minute-typing-test this platform they always guide about keyboards.
I've used a few dozen keyboards. An early one was the nice capacitance keyboard in the Processor Tech Sol-20. I'm forever looking for a keyboard that feels like that. I'm using a Topre Realforce now. I've tested different keyboard keys by ordering key sample kits through Amazon, and found a couple that feel and sound similar to a Topre. I prefer shaped keys to Apple's flat short-travel keys because my hands can find the home position more readily.
One issue about Realforce: the configuration software for it is Windows only. Also Topre has said the keyboard might not work properly when connected to a Mac. I get the sense after using one for a while that the keyboard gets confused in a minor way, but beyond that I like the keyboard and expect to use it for a few years.
I built a split keyboard recently (Sofle) and it's made a huge positive impact for me. Having halves at shoulder width and full control over the layout with QMK is great, and it finally got me to learn to touch type. If you're considering a Moonlander or Ergodox, and you're handy with an iron, look into building one first.
It generally works out cheaper than prebuilt, but I did end up nickel and diming myself making arbitrary improvements. A good read if don't you want to get sucked into the ridiculous prices of custom keyboards like I did: https://golem.hu/guide/budget-builds/
I love mechanical keyboards (mkb) but am not obsessed about them. Given a choice, I prefer an mkb over other keyboards. A keyboard to my mind is a means to an end, but not an end in itself. I do not understand people who hoard mkb's, but that's just me.
In India, the best mkb you can buy is a TVS [1], and I am a happy user for many years now. They don't market to mkb hobbyists (e.g. gamers, mkb collectors), but to heavy-duty users such as bank clerks. This kb is affordable, durable, reliable. What more can I ask?
I absolutely love the Realforce R2. It did take me a while to adjust after slamming the shit out of my fingers on cherry mx blue switches for years... I find I have zero discomfort in my hands after a long day of work now.
I have a dedicated Telegram group for mechanical keyboards, and some enthusiasts (around 500+) hang around. I discovered the joys of keyboard during the pandemic, and it made for a delightful experience. I have cycled through several options (PBT keycaps/ switches) and found the "perfect combination" through hotswap (that allows me to replace switches) and pudding keycaps that makes for a delightful visual experience.
I am not a gamer, but a typist. It's reassuring that the strokes are happening the instant I expect them to. Totally worth the experience.
I guess because they've succeeded in making their brand into some kind of insider signifier and so are able to charge a premium to people who want to think of themselves as connoisseurs
On some level niche things are more expensive. Sure some of it is the aesthetic, I won't deny it, but without economies of scale and more importantly enough demand to justify a lower price point you end up at higher prices.
Like the Microsoft Trackball that was like $30 way back when but is now $200 for a make it yourself kit. By selling millions of them you can make them in a way someone selling a few thousand could never afford to.
I've always been intrigued by the HHKB, if I ever got one I would get hasu controller and modify the layout so I could get vim style arrows.
However my keyboard journey has lead me to the conclusion that I prefer split keyboards.
Using standard keyboard layouts gives me a lot of pain in my arms. I noticed this pain when using the standard mac keyboard, an ibm model m (this one hurt my fingers as well), or a 60% board.
Right now I'm using a kinesis freestyle 2 and it's tenting feature helps alleviate the pain.
I still love my plain old IBM style one. I bought a cheap Eagletec $40 knock off ibm keyboard and have been using it for the past 5 years for gaming and typing. I love the sound feedback. I can't use it in the office though :) . Too many people are annoyed enough by regular keyboards let alone clacky ones. It's not showing any signs of dying unlike my ROG asus keyboard that I have had to replace twice on my laptop. I don't know what's up with that thing.
I have never been a fan of the mechanical keyboards. Typing with so much noise in a public space makes me feel like an asshole. Pressing the keys feels better than the membrane though.
After enough persuasion from my friend, who loves mechanical switches, I bought a silent full-sized Realforce R2 PFU. This is not a game-changer but a nice upgrade of the workspace. Now I am more comfortable with it than with any mechanical switch I tried.
There are some knock-off Topres that are less expensive. For example, Royal Kludge had some boards that showed up on Drop a while back. I haven't used them, though, and they don't seem to have really caught on.
I had a CM Novatouch for a while, which was Topre-based. It wasn't my cup of tea (I'm partial to dampened ALPs switches from old Apple Extended Keyboards), and I eventually sold it, but it was a solid keyboard.
The Filco Majestouch 2 is a great keyboard. This is an older model, and it existed before the mech keyboard craze took off. Mine was sitting in the closet collecting dust having long ago been replaced by "fancier" keyboards with esoteric switches and other random features. Using it for the first time after a long hiatus was an "aha" moment. The typing experience was so much nicer. Upon reflection, here is why:
1. Plastic case. Aluminum cases and metal back plates have become pretty popular, but they are sooo heavy. It's nice when the keyboard has some weight, but I think things have gone too far.
2. No LEDs. A lot of keyboards have LEDs. Backlighting the keys is one thing, but a lot of keyboards just do it for looks and it gets annoying after a while.
3. Cherry MX blues and browns are great switches. A lot of switches have come on the market over the last few years. I think their proliferation is driven by people wanting something new, but Cherry's blue and brown switches are still better than many other switches.
4. Timeless layout. There has been a drive to make keyboards smaller. I agree with this trend, up to a point. If the keyboard is missing keys you need, it's not a good choice for extended typing. Sure, you can remember the hotkeys for the missing characters, but it's still annoying. Also, there isn't really a standard 60% design, so all the manufacturers do it differently. A ten-keyless keyboard might be _slightly_ bigger than I would prefer, but it's got a layout that has withstood the test of time.
Just to add a fifth point: Lifespan. I'm typing this on a Majestouch that I've owned for more than 10 years. I've had to replace the keycaps twice now due to wear, but the keyboard still works perfectly and feels as new.
It's certainly the oldest piece of technology in my office. I've typed on newer fancier keyboards (and have a 60% for travel), but the Majestouch is still my favourite.
Used a majestouch for almost 10 years. Bought an Varmilo VA109M after looking at keyboards for a month or so, couldn't find one with topre keys and Nordic layout. Not regretting it at all so far, feels amazing, similar in features to the majestouch, both have brown switches.
If you use the mouse a lot, I would go tenkeyless. The smaller travel distance helps a great deal with -tennis- mouse elbow. the lack of 10keys is annoying at sometimes, so I would recommend buying a separate 10keyboard. Sometimes I like to use the 10key with my left hand.
Was this a Costar-manufactured keyboard? My experience with Costar across multiple brands has been so satisfying, it's been hard to trust that other sources would meet the same standard.
If you have other people around, you'll almost definitely want a "silent" switch. I've been using cherry blue (loud clicky) switches for a decade and then when my family joined me at home for covid they all complained. I changed to a silent switch and it's been great.
I would recommend the "CODE" keyboard. They make almost every variation you would need (including "silent red" version):
A silent switch is the biggest factor in my experience.
You can add o-rings to other switches to help reduce the sound of "bottoming out" (when the bottom of the keycap touches the mounting plate or PCB depending on how the keyboard is constructed). But, I don't like the o-ring method because it's not as quiet and it also impacts the key travel, which doesn't always feel nice. Also, the o-ring only helps with the bottoming out sound, and some switches have an actuation point click that also makes sound and the o-ring doesn't change that.
Additional foam, gaskets, etc can help with noise but it's pretty minimal compared to the switch itself.
Just reiterating. They set out to make a no-compromise, feature-complete board, and succeeded. I have 2 that I use every day, one on a Mac, and the other on a PC. Their dip-switch configurator to determine which system they're plugged into is, IMO, a perfect solution. I would buy another in a heartbeat.
I'm really happy with my WASD, as my first proper mechanical keyboard. Very sturdy, looks nice, has a detachable cable, and you can order them with completely blank keycaps (something I've wanted for ages).
The main downside is that setting up macros or alternate configurations is a pain. It involves a lot of very specific key presses, with only minimal feedback on the board itself. A proper software utility would be a wonderful feature.
Got the Mini-M last year, love it (but I'm not exactly a keyboard-aficionado nor a fast typist). Best keyboard (well only 'proper' one) I had since my Cherry branded keyboard in the early nineties. Slight annoyance though is that there seems to be a well-known firmware bug disabling the 'q' key every once in a blue moon (three or four times so far). Nothing a disconnect/reconnect can't solve, but it's annoying if your password has a 'q' ...
And yes, too loud for the modern office. At home I got used to it and don't really mind anymore. Too heavy to carry around in the back-pack, but I do appreciate the 'heft' on the desk at home.
Having a split keyboard is the most important step IMO to healthy hands, right after getting the right desk height to keep the wrist at the normal angle.
I recommend keeb.io keyboards (I own 3), Sinc (fuller size) or Quefrency. Don’t let the aesthetic confuse you - they are much better quality than anything factory made.
If you are looking for a more traditional keyboard - look at Kinesis offerings (they have several split mech boards, I own Freestyle, but retired it in favor of Keeb.io stuff)
I hear people like Digma Raise as well, but i never used it.
If you're unsure of the switches you want, I would recommend grabbing a switch tester[1]. They don't give the exact experience of typing, but they are very useful if you have no frame of reference for what the different switches actually feel like. I know buying one gave me the confidence to take the plunge into a full mechanical keyboard.
Gaming keyboards often use linear switches, which are faster and easier to hit - this is good for gaming but can be messy for long typing in my experience. This is why blue and brown switches, which slow you down a little more, are kind of better for writing to me?
Otherwise a lot is going to depend on personal preference, how often you use a numpad or other things, but that's one thing to look for in extended typing.
Browns are recommended for typing over reds, etc. as they have the tactile 'bump' but aren't excessively noisy. Reds are supposed to be quieter along with some other less common switches.
I have a leopold with browns I bought used for $40 years ago plugged into my work laptop, and a cooler master with cherry browns and backlighting I use on my desktop that cost me a little over $100. I did get one keyboard with gateron switches because they're cheaper than cherry switches, but one of the keys was failing within months. I have stuck with cherry switches since.
I've been on the fence for a few years about buying a kinesis advantage 2. The layout does seem like it would make typing much more comfortable and ergonomic.
Matias makes keyboards for typists. I love my matias quiet click, but some people have reported reliability issues (chattering) with the switches in keyboards other than matias' own.
If you want tactile switches they are a great option. Cherry MX browns are linear compared to a snappy rubber dome.
For linear switches I would say maybe the varmilo EC ones? Almost all contactless switches are extremely smooth. The varmilo keyboards are no-nonsense keybaords with good build quality.
For clicky I would say Matias yet again. They are extremely tactile. I haven't seen any reliability issues reported with them, even in non-matias keyboards.
That said, they tend to be biased toward more traditional key layouts. If you're looking for an "ergo" keyboard - split, columnar, whatever - there are fewer review sites that cater to that approach. Also fewer options, though. Especially if you're looking for a low price point.
The gaming keyboards are a good choice because they're cheap. Sure they're ugly sometimes with annoying LED effects, but they're good for getting started before you decide to invest in something more expensive/fancy.
In my case, I've fallen in love with my Corsair gaming one with blue switches. The red backlight is ugly, but it's actually comfortable when used in a dark room.
Love my Keychron K3 optical with white switches. Very little pressure needed to send a keystroke. Took some practice to get used to. I did accidentally push keys sometimes, but that is gone after a bit of time.
I wish they made a 100% layout of this model, because Blender.
I’d avoid WASD and go for a Keychron Q2 because the firmware is customizable and open source. It also has hotswappable switches if you want to change things up or try different switches at some point. It’s very reasonably priced in my opinion.
I had Cherry MX Black Switches and it was nice for gaming and overall coding, but then one day I switched to WASD with Cherry MX Green and I didn't liked that much.
The best mechanical keyboards to me were Brown switches and black ones so far the best ones for coding, gaming and general internet usage.
I always encourage people to try as much until you find the best one.
Maybe I have just developed a certain habit, but after having compared mechanical keyboards with the standard Apple external keyboard, I definitely prefer the flat profile of Apple keyboards over the deep clicky travel of mechanical keyboards, especially if one uses an external touchpad rather than a mouse.
You can go low profile with various switches on any layout, even attaching trackpoint or trackball module. Many designs are open source these days thanks to many MK designer/developers.
Interesting about the box white. I haven't heard many people praise them. They sound fun but then people move on.
I thought I liked them when I first got them but after two years of daily use, I gotta say they're not for me. I'm clearly slower and making more typos than e.g. with MX browns. Next keyb is probably going to be low profile reds.
I had used HHKB Pro 2 for 10 years and I wouldn't switch to anything else ever, so I bought 3x HHKB JP when I last went to Japan in 2013 (to get the arrow keys and have the same keyboard everywhere/for backup) and I have been programming on those ever since (even if the Japaneese layout is slightly worse than US for programming: http://mouth.rupy.se/keyboard.html).
But last month I bought this: https://kbdfans.com/products/fully-assembled-60-plastic-mech... just to try something else, and it's plesant but pretty far from a HHKB! Also for some strange reason the shift/ctrl buttons don't work with Java Minecraft on linux! Go figure, probably some odd LWJGL + TWM bug?
I really enjoy my mechanical keyboard ever since I got quieter switches. But I have to say, this article reads like it is trying to produce value rather than explain it. That is, “let me tell you all the meaningless things that make this so expensive.”
Does there exist an ergo (split) keyboard with the same layout as the Realforce R2?
That keyboard has exactly the layout I want. But every single split keyboard has a horrific layout. Why can't there be a split keyboard with a normal layout and good keys..
I've tried to join but I feel is overglorified or overhyped and gimmicky shits I actually prefer my mac 2017 butterfly, better than any mechanical/topres let alone the hhkb without the windows and button lmao
I sport Cooler Master NovaTouch TKL with Cherry Stems, its ok. its the keyboard I use when i need to go fast and get the keyboard out of the way. Its smooth its fast and I like it, but not for a slow ride.
> The Realforce R2 TKL we bought came with 55g Topre switches. The tactility is similar to lubed Drop Holy Pandas with Tribosys 3203, with the legs lubed.
This paragraph was worth the price of admission for me.
This is not well researched and written. There are many cheap EC keyboards out there. The price premium is due to cult following that predates the recent trend in mechanical keyboards.
> For many years, they held the patent on Topre switches. However, in the mid-2000s, that patent expired. Despite other companies now being able to make Topre-clones, the Topre name was exclusive for many years and gained quite a reputation for themselves.
Realforce is expensive from the beginning because it designed for professional. Its early consumer model in 2005 costs about 20k JPY and latest model costs from 18k JPY. (Since there's little inflation so it can be compared)
I went for Topre because of the hype. Was interested how it lives up to it.
In the meanwhile Topre solved some issues I had with some of my finger joints.
Very relaxed typing. Fewer typos. Cushioned bottoming out. No pain anymore.
Have a 100% Realforce in ISO GER layout for number crunching and "general" computing. F Keys, numpad.
My fav board so far is the FC660c silent. Top notch quality. The silencing makes me appreciate the Topre feel even more. Small form factor to have a short distance to grab the mouse. That helps my shoulder. Getting old, I guess. My only wish is for a BT version.
Really? Then you must not know much about manufacturing and how it scales.
If you want a widget it will be made on a general purpose machine with skilled labor. If you a dozen some simple jigs will made, the jig costs as much as a widget(ofte more ), but lowers the effort to make more. By the time you get into the tens of millions it is worth making custom machines for each step.
I bought four Topre keyboards during the pandemic lockdown. Very nice to type on, especially the silent versions, but latency is an issue: it seems the boards use a 30Hz internal scan rate. There are two scan rates for modern USB keyboards that affect final latency: #1. the internal scan rate which is how frequently the onboard keyboard controller scans all the keys for whether they are in a key-up or key-down state, which can be anywhere from 30-8000Hz (new gaming boards advertise 8000Hz); #2. the USB poll rate, usually 125Hz, though typically 1000Hz for gaming keyboards and as low as 60-90Hz for Bluetooth keyboards.
So if internal scan rate is 30Hz or 33ms and poll rate is 125Hz or 8ms then worse case latency is 33+8=41ms and average latency is about half that or ~20ms.
Note that a Topre keyboard is no worse latency-wise than an Apple Bluetooth keyboard, and most people who use Apple's wireless keyboards don't notice the latency is so high, nor do I ever hear people complain that Apple's wireless Bluetooth mouse is only 90Hz polling instead of the standard 125Hz for PC mice and the standard 1000Hz for gaming mice. An online mouse rate checker gives fairly accurate results:
I ended up preferring Cherry MX Silent keyboards over Topre. They are linear whereas Topre has a bit of snap-down due to its rubber domes. It's really personal preference which you will prefer. I like linear better. Cherry MX is a bit scratchier but after a month of use the keys get a bit smoother and many people lube Cherries with Krytox teflon grease to make them smoother. I suspect most would prefer Cherry MX Silent Red which has a 60 gram bottom out force but there is also Cherry MX Silent Black which has an 80 gram bottom out force. The MX Silent Black is most similar to how piano keys feel (with much shorter ~3.6mm key travel though).
The two best MX Silent boards I tried were the Durgod Taurus K320 available from Amazon ($100-$150) and the Ducky One 2 available from mechanicalkeyboards.com ($100-$110). Both have PBT keycaps (like the legendary IBM Model M which I also love but which is too loud and clacky for my quiet audio workstation) and have quiet stabilizers straight out of the box that don't rattle and don't need to be lubed or messed with. (And the worst Cherry Silent board I tried was Cherry's own MX Silent Board which was incredibly loud.)
rtings.com does keyboard latency tests and found that the Ducky One 2 has a total latency of about 7-8ms whereas the Durgod is ~16ms. The Ducky also house built-in macro reprogramming with no janky Chinese Windows tool download needed.
But the Ducky's PBT keycaps were quite rough for my fingertips so I replaced them with smoother PBT sets from Amazon. The Mistel and Tecware keycaps are both smoother PBT and very nice. The Tecware keycaps are only $20, amazing value.
What I don't like HHKB is exactly the inexact trigger point.
These capacitive switches were originally designed for the need of extreme reliability, like for buttons in power station control panels, industrial equipment, etc.
Switches themselves are cheap, but chips for the capacitive readout for each button isn't, or at least weren't 20 years ago.
I want to make mechanical switches with equal reliability, and no bounce.
I am thinking about it but so far I have not got it - the built in mouse using the ijkl keys is awesome for me, just couldn't see additional value. Ordered the v2 of the keyboard for office though.
I disagree. There are numerous people, myself included, on /r/mechanicalkeyboards that have way better experiences with Realforce/HHKB keyboards and their quality. I use daily a RF 87 for the past 5 years and I've had no issues with it.
I only regret not getting a Norbauer case for it, despite its price.
Several years ago, I worked at a call center that had very old equipment. The wornout membrane keyboards created a great deal of pain in my hands with each keystroke. After that I became a believer in mechanical keyboards. The pain went away.
Norbauer still does releases afaik. In fact it looks like polycarb Norbaforces are still available. I'm pretty sure I saw a run of the metal housings earlier in the year, too.
I have a Topre and various cherry reds and browns. The Topre actually isn't the best for me and I don't use it much, so I don't think I have a bias towards it, but I can say that the difference in how it feels is not subtle.
Not the same. I honestly cannot hear differences between audiophile quality headphones or interconnects.
The typing experience of Topres' is noticeable whether you come from domes or mechanical keyboards. They feel in-between. I have arthritis in my right pinky. A 35g topre keyboard is perfect. (I also tried 35g mechanical switches but it did not feel as smooth).
Interesting, maybe I have a heavier Topre. Sore finger joints are why I went mech, which solved the issue once I learned to type without bottoming out. That ended up feeling pretty fast, too.
With my Topre, I wasn't able to do that, and even though it feels pretty cushiony at the bottom it still left me with some soreness. But maybe it's just too heavy.
But I'll recognize they have some merit. The chunky feeling has a sense of physically I never experienced in other keyboard. The 60 keys and compact form factor is great for transport and leaves a lot of room for other things on your desk (this is actually super useful). The physical switches for changing the layout are very handy. And honestly the thing look like it could survive an impact from a deep space object. I would be surprised if it starts to show wear within the next 10 years.
I still prefer my cheap Cherry Mx-Board 3 with brown cherry keys. The thing is clunky and ugly, but the more muted noise and lower pressure required to activate the keys is what I'm comfortable with.
I'm so sorry for my former colleagues that had to go through my topre period and deal with the noise I even personally was very annoyed with.
Edit:spelling