Speaking as someone actively hiring here and having worked with top teams on the PhD + industry side: Pick an area, get dangerous over say 6-9mo on your own time through a mix of planned practice (vs random noodling) + projects, then get more dangerous via an employer with senior talent happy to train some junior talent over 2yrs. From there, you're firmly in.

That's not an option for everyone (aging parents, needy kids, ...), but for software engineers with modern salaries, it's often approachable.

Ex: We'd bite if someone demoed us some impressive GLSL JS work, discussed how they'd get another 100X of scale, and their code style looks like it'd be practical for us to collaborate around. We require the same from someone with a degree. To your advantage, it shows (a) you can hit the ground running (b) you've got the "slope" / drive we're looking for when choosing to invest in someone new to the area.

A degree does unlock some things for us. Some US Gov grants needs it. But more important, degree or no degree, is the independent projects/papers/grants/etc. along the way that demonstrate they can do more of the same. But much of that is about going beyond research engineering (=> RFPs, ...), and you get much of that experience on-the-job... if you've already show you can do the core coding.

How is any amount of practice going to get past the ML filters that reject all "unworthy" submissions as determined by somebody in HR filling in some config settings?

Tell computer that you have an education. Get to talk to the human. Prepare a good explanation why the education part is not so straightforward as a computer may think. Some humans will understand.

You can also explain the situation to the computer using the hot keywords. When a human gets to it, you will not have told a lie.

If computer offers as much as a checkbox, that approach could be problematic.

don't apply through HR filter routes nor with a normal application. you need just one person on the team or senior on the decision path to advocate a look. stuff like DEI, veteran hiring, high energy, etc are real, and junior hires are all protected categories, so managers do care about non-unicorn hires and will bat for them .

-- startups, esp those scrappy (read: no $30M funding rounds) so aren't using HR recruiters, will do hiring directly through founders or later leads. in general, up to 100+ employees, a good CEO should be involved in every hire

-- everyone else: LinkedIn sleuthing -- identify the team you'd want to join and likely hiring lead

in both cases, direct reach out via LI/email to that person: ~2 sentences proving you are legit ready to provide value on week 1-2 (ex: impressive demo page/video link), leading to a coverpage of 3-4 paragraphs why you<>them specifically (project, ROI, ...) + regular CV

ex: if you want to do GLSL JS at Graphistry, I'd jump on an email / LI msg that linked to a cool GLSL video/demo and a good GitHub behind it. normally we have to hunt to find that kind of thing, so A+ for candidates who show they already align on our mission and can do the legwork.

80%+ of applications we get could have been applying for any webdev job, not ours: if we were looking for that, our job search would have taken 1-3 days. so don't present yourself that way nor apply that way. Numbers wise, instead of below the bar on 100 jobs so ~0% chance, at least get a 5-10% chance on 10-20, giving you a 100% shot

heck, as someone senior, i'd still never apply through the front door, including for co's I don't know anyone at

> LinkedIn sleuthing -- identify the team you'd want to join and likely hiring lead

LI is a giant circle jerk. You shouldn't have to sneak around unofficial channels to get past HR BS.

Agreed! But till that wonderful future, 15-20min on LI can work quite well vs auto-reject.

Most people trust the system despite already knowing it doesn't work, and then get sad when their dream job doesn't happen (or any job). There is no rule you have to do that!

Excellent advice. Comports with my own experience (high school dropout w/38 years as tech professional).

Listen to this one, folks.

This shows some light at the end of the tunnel, thanks!

How does one find the “employer with senior talent happy to train some junior talent over 2yrs.”?

I’m in a similar situation than OP, but I find myself in the IT Operations side of tech, not software where I want to be.

I know I will devote myself to any project they give me and turn 1% of mentoring into loads of progress, but I can’t seem to arouse the HR filter enough and I don’t have contacts in the software world to get through the personal route.

I do have a somewhat big (viewed from my junior point of view at least) project I’m working on and it’s constantly updated in GitHub, but I don’t think anyone even gets to look at it.

Going from software operations to software engineering is a bigger leap, so go for it and good luck!

I have thought about it less, and we have never took on such a candidate, but we are small and scrappy . Some thoughts from discussions with bootcamp students looking for their first job:

- Become a maintainer / trusted committeer of an open source project popular with companies and they are likely struggling on. You will get professional mentoring on your PRs and they will come hunting for you.

- Lean into a niche, esp that uses your background. Ex: If you are great at ops, specialize in something like k8s, or even more niche. We are looking for someone doing k8s for our infra to help our users turn their GPU knob to 100 without feeling the pain. If we had someone mid/senior on it already, would have been inclined for person #2 or #3 to be junior just b/c their enthusiasm on doing the basics. It's niche enough to expect to have to train on, and you ops experience gives you an advantage over other junior candidates. If you run your own k8s (or some oss/volunteer groups) for a year and are an accepted k8s ecosystem contributor , that means you are doing it right . DevOps lets you transition to other Python jobs, and has some lucrative niches, like security automation/engineering.

good luck!

There is no shame in going back to school. Ever.

I totally flubbed college in my late teens, and didn't go back to get my bachelor's until I was 40. I went to Harvard Extension, and it took 7 (seven!) years of 2 classes per semester, late nights, and long weekends to graduate, bachelor with honors, in Computer Science. I gained exposure and appreciation for some other topics along the way, like philosophy, and was surprisingly good at those, too.

In that entire 7 years, I held down a full-time job, raised one kid, birthed another, sold and bought two houses, all the while writing papers, developing projects, taking exams, and the like. I sacrificed some time with family, but definitely TV, movies, sports, and video games (still don't miss those, actually). My family and everyone I worked with, including my managers, were incredibly accommodating with my time, respecting my early mornings and lunch times working on homework, and encouraged me along the way, helping to count down the credit hours. I learned I had a much larger support network and cheerleading squad than I realized.

Did I need to go through all of that? Kind of, but not really. I was gainfully employed, and was killing it at work, but I craved the personal satisfaction of having accomplished this thing. I consider my degree to be my mid-life crisis gift to myself, and I couldn't be happier with it. Way better than a car.

Go back to school. You won't regret it.

That's some dedication! Many people in this comments section have worked really hard on a degree while juggling real life. I'll have to think about it.

How did you enjoy Harvard's extension school?

> see the cool jobs in 3D graphics, in distributed systems, in machine learning, or other "hard computer science" fields, and it feels like I will never be qualified without a graduate degree.

I have a good BS in CS, and did some interesting things in my career. At 40, the jobs that you list would also be hard for me to get.

IMO: Only get the degree if you want the experience of being a student again. There's no guarantee that a degree will get you a job in that field.

Edit: One of the risks in our field is that the more specialized you are, the market narrows for your job opportunities. You could find that you have a fancy degree, only a few places you can use it, and for some unfair reason they won't hire you.

Are you willing to put in a significant amount of work? Look into Georgia Tech's OMSCS program. Do some searches, read (or watch) some of the press coverage of the program. Its very affordable. But the program is not a gimme - you will have to do significant amounts of work. When you complete the program you will have the knowledge and credentials to pursue some of those cool jobs you see. Seems like the credentials matter less and less these days but for some people/jobs its still necessary. Make sure you do the work. You will only get out what you put in. Machine Learning, Computer Vision, Reinforcement Learning, AI are all greatest hits/best of courses. You will learn amazing things and have very challenging assignments. If you don't have a ton of free time you can take one class each quarter and finish in 3 years. You don't have to quit your well paying software job (at least I didn't). Have kids? wife? pets? volunteer work etc? Its still doable (I did it). Just plan ahead and don't leave things until the last minute.

My son is currently in the GA Tech Cybersecurity online Master degree program. Seems like a good program over all, very project oriented. I would say he spends 15-40 hours per project, and you have a new one every 2 to 3 weeks. Project are not for the faint of heart...

Would you please give some examples of those projects?

Doesn't this require a bachelors degree though?

Yes. https://omscs.gatech.edu/program-info/admission-criteria

> Applicants who do not meet these criteria will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis; however, work experience will not take the place of an undergraduate degree.

> Georgia Tech requires that international applicants hold the equivalent of a U.S. four-year baccalaureate degree earned at a regionally accredited institution.

You're right. I overlooked that part of their question.

> As a result I never even finished my bachelors degree, and I'm now in my early 30s and regretting it a lot.

I'd really think carefully about why you want that degree.

> But then I look around and see the cool jobs in 3D graphics, in distributed systems, in machine learning, or other "hard computer science" fields, and it feels like I will never be qualified without a graduate degree.

Why do you feel that? What signals are you reading? Does this feeling apply across the board, or only to one or two of the fields you listed?

> What should I do?

Your title suggests that you may equate "credential" with education. I would take a serious look at that because it's far from a universal view. In fact, it may be the thing that's really holding you back.

Part of it is vanity. Part of it is the feeling that I'll have to defend my lack of credentials for the rest of my career, and that it's ultimately going to hold me back. And maybe part of it is the idea that there are some things I'll never properly learn without taking significant time off work to do focused study.

But more than a few commenters here are saying that demonstrating ability is more important than pedigree. Perhaps I just need to get over the mental hump of obsessing over credentials.

I use my background as an anti-credential credential. When I was hired to teach software testing to engineers at JPL, I was asked by the administrator of the training department not to tell anyone I never graduated from 10th grade. I told him disclosing that was in fact an essential part of my teaching process.

I want people to know I don’t deal in bullshit, and that I always do what I think is right, and that my whole life history qualifies me to cut through the nonsense. Being a dropout gives me street cred.

BTW the guys on the Curiosity Rover test team were great. One of the most satisfying classes I have taught, and I treasure the JPL polo shirt I bought at the campus store.

I use to feel the same way before I started working at a larger Silicon Valley company as a software engineer. I graduated from a state school with a degree in Industrial Print Management and always felt like I was at a disadvantage because I didn't have a CS degree. Most of what I know about software engineering is self taught, I felt very self-conscious about this.

My performance did not match my perception and I was consistently outperforming my peers; getting recognition that I never felt I deserved. It turns out that practical experience is actually more valuable than academic experience. I would rather hire someone who's humble, driven, and ambitious but didn't go to CS school then someone who's none of those things but they have fancy degree.

>Part of it is the feeling that I'll have to defend my lack of credentials for the rest of my career

Your feeling is, IMO misguided. Ok, some employers will be shortsighted, but the ones where you'll have a fulfilling career recognize that the person that taught themselves has proven that they can learn something new without explicit guidance, and had the grit to see it through themselves. This is something that freshly minted grads have yet to prove.

Don't get me wrong, I found my degree useful personally, it helps to have an education programme map out your unknown unknowns and turn them at into known knowns.

When hiring, with computer science graduates, I know that they at least know certain things (with a little prodding), but I don't yet know their capacity for learning new things unguided.

For non-graduates, I might need a little more time when hiring to figure out what they do know (if they're new to the industry), but when they can demonstrate skills I know they have capacity to learn for themselves.

It's not that it's better or worse to have the degree, it's just different, but some of the differences are to your advantage.

To skip creds, skip gov and bigco, esp when new :) Startups & smaller co's are the places that take on the uncredentialed CV risks that everything-aleady-works co's have too much to lose on.

Gov and bigco care about creds, esp early. Managers there are rarely judged on ultimate results as they are often far removed and just need to improve something predictable by say 1% and hit some fungible and redefinable goals. They are heavily into checklists for covering their ass in not going in the other direction: "Your team took down prod / project was late: why did you hire unaccredited ppl? You run a B team. My team needs 2x budget bc we have all CISSPs and PhDs, and are not responsible for final delivery bc that's grunt work." They do matter a bit later too, but more fungible: someone close to me is actively going through a ~50% pay negotiation based on the same work but differently creds & math being recognized.

Startups and smaller companies dont need to protect their fiefdom but make it exist & grow, so credentials mostly matter less and projects matter more. Early on whether you can actually code, which projects show. Later, whether you can actually run a project through various stages, vs ride on the coattails of someone else, which takes 1-3 years.

I’m almost 50 and have to check the ’some college’ box. That nagging never goes away entirely but the best antidote has been working with folks that are have the creds im after. Mostly I find that we complement each other pretty well, they help me understand domain specialties and i help them avoid the gauntlet of footguns that is delivering software in a regulated juggernaut of an organization.

Came here to write this, but @pezzana did it better.

Having a degree for long time, the only usage where it is important is work visa application - in many countries you just won't be eligible for proper visa without degree. Besides that, the only thing I regretted were 6 years wasted in college.

More of a general answer than for CS, but for bachlors or masters (some are IT-related, maybe not as cool as you are looking for): check out WGU (it has been discussed on HN before, or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGU or https://www.wgu.edu/ .

Edit: the reason I mention WGU is that it is accredited (lots, looks like), well-regarded AFAIK, you get credit for what you already know (test out), and take as many classes as you want in a semester for a flat fee (or some such), so you can do it for less $ if you are experienced or have learned material previously. And remote-friendly, I believe.

And in the never-give-up category, 89-year-old becomes a physicist:

https://www.newser.com/story/313396/he-retired-from-medicine...

Yeah, OP is basically the perfect candidate for WGU. With transfer credits and work knowledge they could probably get a bachelors in a year and go on to OMSCS.

I was in the exact same position. I found a university program which allowed me to get MS in Computer Science mostly online. I took me 3 years, but I did this in parralel with may day job while having 2 kids at home. I think it was well worth it and I encourage you to try.

As long as you going to invest all this time and money, do it with recognizable university, not some online only program.

Your company may agree to pay part of it. US companies have some tax writeoff for employee education so it is basically free to them (up to some limit). It is usually not enough to cover the full tuition but still helps.

Do you mind me asking, where was the program?

It was while ago (2009) at Colorado State University

You got a master degree in only 3 years in CS with two kids and a day time job? Seriously? First of all: hats off!

How did you manage that? Did you sleep occasionally? I'm in a similar situation (kids, job) and I just cannot see something like this could be possible without sacrificing one one front.

I already had BS in EE, and I was able to transfer some credits.

> I look around and see the cool jobs in 3D graphics, in distributed systems, in machine learning, or other "hard computer science" fields, and it feels like I will never be qualified without a graduate degree

I have an engineering degree and masters in CS. That stuff looks impossible to me as well. However, I know some people who work in similar fields with very little formal education.

I'm not saying it won't help, I'm just saying it is neither the only door to those "hard" fields, nor it is a guarantee that those subjects will suddenly start making more sense.

> 3D graphics, in distributed systems, in machine learning, or other "hard computer science" fields

You're looking across widely different fields that are each impossible for anyone to master (despite the degree being called a Masters).

To use an analogy, even the GOAT Michael Jordan couldn't transfer his skills across sports.

You could pick anyone of those, spend an entire lifetime (or several) and barely make any impact.

If you want to develop expertise in any field, go right ahead. But the idea that a PhD (or anything) would allow you to master multiple tech disciplines is a pipe dream.

I didn't say that I wanted to master all of those fields. I was just picking examples of topics that I think are interesting.

In my opinion, if you can put in the time, I would just suck it up and go get the degree. You are still relatively young, so if you can get a degree at 35-40ish, that's still 25+ working years. Anything beyond Bachelor's is probably not worth pursing, but having the B.S. could definitely help you. I put myself through school by delivering pizza, then I got a M.S. part time while working. Yes, it was a slog, but it was absolutely worth it.

Edit: To add to this, I think working in tech industry now is very fast moving. I also put in a lot of effort to refresh & stay current. If you end up with the attitude of "it's too late to study", then you'll get left behind very quickly. Young people have a lot of free time and they catch up very very quickly.

I would absolutely not halt your career for this.

Most people do college/university as a means to get where you are now. It seems like you do not need this. You just want to deeper learnings. No reason you can't pursue that.

If you find a way to do both, then great. However you can pursue to better yourself through education that don't require you the double-cost of university fees and loss-of earnings then go for it.

I met a PhD who could not write any software. He was like a person off the street with no computer science education at all. A nice person that I liked, but but he really cemented the idea that degrees mean little.

> What should I do?

In your situation I would continue working my current job. Putting work on hold and going back to college is a huge financial blunder to satisfy a problem that only exists in your mind.

> but then I look around and see the cool jobs in 3D graphics, in distributed systems, in machine learning, or other "hard computer science" fields, and it feels like I will never be qualified without a graduate degree.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. You can only become a specialist in one of these fields. Even if you were to dedicate your life on doing 3D graphics, you won't easily switch to a distributed systems or machine learning type of focus. Also, working on "hard" problems in these fields primarily happens in an industry/academic research type of job - these are really niche topics you have to throw your soul at to stay up to date/ahead in.

What is your goal for getting a degree? Be honest with yourself, then figure out how/why to achieve it.

If you just want a degree to say that you have one, and to complete something that you started, that's OK. But the way you approach solving that (casual evening courses over the next 3-4yrs) is different from "need a degree to get more specialized job", in which case it may be worth a more focused study to get your degree ASAP so you can change jobs.

If you just want to learn more about other topics, or go deeper - there's lots of approaches that don't require formal education. MOOCs, self-study with text books, seminars/auditing classes, etc.

Why put your career on hold while you go back to school? You could (possibly) do both. There are an awful lot of educational opportunities available in this day and age, including graduate degrees - including some from highly reputable schools - that are available purely online, in very flexible formats that could allow you to both work a "day job" and go back to school at the same time.

> It really bums me out and constantly thinking about it is starting to wear me out mentally. Putting my career on hold for a few years to go back to school has a very high opportunity cost right now, and even if I were to do that I would still feel like a massive screw-up for going back to university in my 30s. At the same time, I feel like I'm throwing away my potential and my curiosity about deeper technical topics.

Send me an email and lets call. I'll tell you my more or less similar story.

The difference?

I have a bachelor in CS and master in CS.

Education credentials are worthless. Educate yourself and be able to showcase within 5 seconds that you're good at it, and you'll be fine.

I know you're on a throwaway, so I get it if you don't want to (and I might not reply, my email is being swamped by spammers :( ).

But as you can see from my comment history, I tend to be quite an open person and I have posted similar-ish questions under this account.

Hi there. I am in almost the same situation as OP, but I’m about to turn 30 and I enrolled back in school already. I’ve been considering that quitting my job in IT and doing school full time could get me the degree sooner and therefore putting me where I want sooner, but this whole thread makes me think that might not give me what I’m after.

If you’re open to talk to someone other than OP my email is in my profile and I would truly appreciate your time.

Thanks

Qualification for advanced fields has nothing to do with a degree in those fields. You get qualified by doing projects in those fields. You can do such projects while paying some institution to give you a paper certificate ... or you can take an online course to learn stuff ... or you can study books and papers and implement a project yourself and open source it to gain recognition for your work.

The industry has some luminaries who do AI/Graphics, etc., without having done much work in those areas in school.

See Jon Carmack, one of the greatest programmers alive. See Abrams. See Cooley. etc. etc.

It's a fallacy that grad school teaches you to do XYZ. You learn it on your own. It's just a forcing function to put you on a timeline.

Everything I know in computer science, outside the intro classes, I learned on my own.

"where I could never seem to care about the course material or putting effort into my classes"

I'm feeling this at my job now. Maybe it's better you felt it in school rather than at work. I dont want to "drop out"CB of my job since I need that for living expenses.

"But then I look around and see the cool jobs in 3D graphics, in distributed systems, in machine learning, or other "hard computer science" fields, and it feels like I will never be qualified without a graduate degree."

I have a masters. I feel this way too. I'm not qualified because I have no experience in these fields. If you're good and have side project experience in this, then you might get in.

The only thing degrees help with is not getting your resume trashed prior to an interview.

A lot of those fields still care more about what you can do, rather than what college credentials you have. Learn to do the work, get samples in your portfolio showing you can do the work, maybe blog about it, and apply. Let them decide if they want to hire you or not, don't preemptively reject yourself.

Also, there is NOTHING wrong with going to school at 30. Or 40. Or 50. Or at any age. You will never be a loser for doing that.

https://www.kron4.com/news/national/age-is-just-a-number-to-...

This dude was almost 90 and got a phd. He isn't a screw up.

I suggest: -get certifications in your area of focus (I personally am looking at AWS ones); tons of resources for certification study at your own pace

-stay working but study at night; to avoid debit and continue to increase years of experience

-Once you have the certs, then eval if you really want the degree.

-Some companies offer tuition reimbursement; taking some night classes towards a degree shows employers motivation

-maybe change jobs every 3-5 years to stay fresh or at least interview periodically other companies

Beware of burnout, you may find that the certifications gives you enough mobility. Years of experience plus certification should get you in the door to most jobs. You may hit your 40s and realize you should have spent more time with loved ones.

If you feel that having a degree is a requirement to move forward , then I suggest you act with haste and either go back to Study full time now or perhaps more sensibly, enrol on a part time remote degree course and secure that Degree, it’s a frequently trodden path by those who didn’t do so well at school and it provides an excellent qualification to meet most, if not all, recruitment requirements. I have a degree from Uni, my brother has an equivalent engineering degree gained through ongoing part time study , luckily he was guided along that path from age 16 and has found it very enabling in his ongoing career .

The only advise I can give is, if you go the autodidact route, learn the stuff that you don't like as well. Look up an official curriculum and pick at random. I've been to uni, and I think the major contribution it brings is forcing you the fundamentals of subjects you'd otherwise skip.

I hated compiler construction with passion. But I love that language design is now at least comprehensible for me when looking at new languages.

Of course this is just one example, another being formal methods/ software validation awesome stuff; would have never learnt it otherwise.

I did great in university, learned a lot, did projects, and the cool jobs still feel so far away. I think the best course of action is to just do what you love and find a way to get paid for it later. That's my strategy. I eat beans, grains and vegetables, live frugally and iterate slowly towards a future I would want to live in.

I think if your problem is that you don't like your day-to-day but your pay is ok, the best way out isn't through university. I think its by dedicating yourself to passion projects through great effort in your free time.

Look at the requirements needed to get the job you want. Verify that they are correct and start by going back to school. You'll be surprise how much fun it is to go to school once you have a goal. Additionally, as an older student you'll have a bit more perspective so you'll be able to see how the classes you are taking will lead to the career you want. By the time you know it, you'll be done. You'll be doing it as a personal goal so make sure you keep that in mind.

You can also try to become an expert on your own. But you'll need to pick a field you are very passionate about since you'll need to grind thru some difficult patches as you learn the subject. It's very hard that's why you need a goal and a passion. Very few people can become competent this way but there are many people that have. All you need is the internet, textbooks, problems to solve and a high level of grit.

Also, pick an emerging field. Once you are competent in it employers will beg you to work for them. The one that comes to mind right away is crypto. People are hating on it but it reminds me of the start of the personal computer revolution. In the late 70's there were very few applications for personal computers but as you can see that's not the case now.

It takes a generation shift for useful technology to become common place. I give it another ten years before we see some killer applications.

> if I were to do that I would still feel like a massive screw-up for going back to university in my 30s

There's no shame in this; I'm wondering where you got this feeling for, especially, because radical changes in 30s/40s are generally considered success stories (when successful, of course ;)).

> until I came to university, where I could never seem to care about the course material or putting effort into my classes [...] But then I look around and see the cool jobs in 3D graphics, in distributed systems, in machine learning, or other "hard computer science" fields, and it feels like I will never be qualified without a graduate degree.

There's a big risk here of liking the idea of something more than something itself. The yellow flag here is that if one likes "hard CS problems", they'd find the CS university subjects tendentially interesting, or anyway, worth completing. Of course there are exceptions, but it's worth thinking about it.

> Putting my career on hold for a few years to go back to school has a very high opportunity cost right now

If your current career is not the one you want, you're paying a "very high" opportunity cost by not changing it.

This assumes that it's not an economical problem, but I read "opportunity cost", so it seems it isn't. To be kept in mind that taking a 3 years break for work, for education, especially in the early 30s, does no harm to the career.

> There's a big risk here of liking the idea of something more than something itself.

It's a good point. Worth noting that my degree was not in CS, but in another engineering discipline.

> If your current career is not the one you want, you're paying a "very high" opportunity cost by not changing it. [...] To be kept in mind that taking a 3 years break for work, for education, especially in the early 30s, does no harm to the career.

Also a good point. My friends are buying homes and settling down, and part of me feels that I should just stop worrying and do the same. Missing out on my current salary and going back to a student lifestyle would sting a little.

Did you start your education in Canada? If so, are you still in Canada? (You mention university in the initial post, and I don't hear that from Americans very often. Though, you may be outside of North America too.)

I screwed up in university early on as well. I took a break of a few years. I don't know where you are, but there are a lot of universities that offer night/weekend classes. I worked full time and took classes at night. I ended up really enjoying my education because I was working and using what I was learning in class in real time. I ended up being glad that I waited and I feel like I got a lot more out of my education than I would have if I had started right out of high school.

Look at schools you want to go to, look at their schedules for a CS degree, and how much is doable at nights and on weekends, if they have special programs for adults, then start by taking one class at night or on weekends while working. In this manner you can end vacillation of whether to take the big step of going back.

At 36 I couldn't stand working for people who didn't realize building cheap software cost a fortune and sadly, that's just about every business out there. I believe there are very few sectors that will give you the luxury of building the right things.

Unfortunately, I had a C+ GPA in my comp.sci bachelor's degree which welded grad school shut. This however gave me the perfect excuse to do a math degree which is an opportunity I regretted. I sold my house and enrolled, graduated winter 2021 right before my 40th birthday. I'm doing a couple of computer science classes this semester and am enrolled back in the computer science master's in Winter 2022.

Here's what I learned:

- If you don't have children, 30 is stupidly young.

- The oportunity cost is obviously 500k+ (gross), but that matters only if your concern is accumulating wealth. All the houses/hotels and money go back in the box at the end of the game regardless.

- The first semester is really difficult but you'll get most of your mental nimbleness back mid second-semester.

- Your memory and intuition will be worst than your peers but 20 year olds don't have a work ethics so your discipline and consistency will prevail in a major way.

- After your first semester, evaluation will be 0-stress.

If you already have experience in computer science then the path from Mathematics -> grad Computer Science is just as smooth and common. The mathematics program may be more challenging however.

I'd like to add that I'm highly skeptical you would learn as much while studying and holding a full time job. I knew I would learn a lot but didn't expect to learn so much.

If you want a sense of everything you'd learn from a Math bachelor's you can install Anki and download my database: https://github.com/davidgrenier/AnkiCards

Unfortunately 90% of the cards are in french.

There are very few jobs in software* that you can’t get without a bachelors or masters. There are a quite small number of semi-research software jobs that you practically need a PhD for. That means you are looking at a decade and there’s no guarantee what’s hot now will be hot then.

If you feel like you need to check a box for your own piece of mind look into a public school night program.

* That you’d want. I’m not counting dinosaur institutions that are so hidebound they want a degree for the sake of a degree.

Didn't start seriously or professionally writing software until I was 26 after messing up my education as well, triple university dropout, failed founder and severely depressed back then.

13 years later, I'm CTO and cofounder of a mid-sized startup on escape trajectory. Your mileage not just _may_ but _will_ vary, but here's a selection of things that personally helped me most on my journey:

Understanding what actually creates my value as a software developer and obsessively trying to focussing on that. Doing helpful things and be known for delivering results. Going far above what was expected, but also making sure it was noticed. Choosing stellar bosses who wanted to develop me, very selectively, and making them successful. Taking responsibility that nobody wanted whereever there was a vacuum. Being bold in daring solutions (but also learning how to seriously piss off superiors and avoiding that). Staying focused on solutions, not on problems. Regularly taking new opportunities that gave me the biggest stretch and largest learning opportunity.

Aiming at the phrasing of your "messed up", I'm only now learning to deal with the level of impostor syndrome this journey brought me and how to switch off from the pressure I put myself into: one of my biggest challenges so far was actually how to learn to love myself and deal with the emotional fallout from my perceived failure in my mid twenties. Looking back, I would have started especially that part of the journey earlier.

The only thing I never regretted was putting a single step back into school.

Good luck. You'll do it. I believe in you.

Get the undergrad so you have the option to do a masters later. Options for any financial independence are a) go to school, b) start a business, or c) become a talent star of some kind.

Are you c? Probably not. Do you have a b in you and given it's a 3-5 year project for most people, are you more likely to succeed at it right now than when you get out of school? Maybe, timebox 3-6mos and do your current dream startup, and when it fails you will know whether you're ready to do it again.

If you can afford to do a) it's a supreme privilege to spend years in school, and you get out the other side with one less giant constraint.

(Didn't finish undergrad either, 20+ years in tech, didn't go back to school because it was always to meet other peoples expectations, and didn't finish because ego insisted succeeding in spite of a self-imposed handicap showed how special I was. It's literally as dumb as it sounds.)

If you don't have a degree, it may have little bearing on your individual talent or ability, but you will always be assigned to work for only the dumbest people who do have one, and they will be your ceiling. This is the random sign from the universe you are looking for. Do it.

I am also 30, don't have a degree, have a good job, and make good money.

First, and perhaps most important: there is _zero_ shame in going back to school at any age.

That said, don't derail your career for this. Career success (IMO) is a function of career momentum and you'll have a hard time getting started again if you stop now.

You have several other options:

1. Go to an online school. University of London (via Coursera), University of the People, Colorado Tech, and Western Governors' University all have CS programs that you can do online and at your own pace. They're all reasonably priced and you can likely pay out of pocket for them (especially University of the People - total cost for the degree is ~$5k).

2. Just learn stuff on your own. You're lucky to work in a field where people are very eager to share what they've been working on. You want to learn 3D graphics? Write a raytracer. Distributed systems? Implement raft. Machine learning? Follow one of a bazillion tutorials out there to get started. Then keep going. Talk to people in the field, tell them what you've been working on, and ask what to do next (think of it as a load-balanced apprenticeship). Formal education or not, nothing changes the fact that learning something thoroughly requires time, focus, and patience. It's perhaps a bit more work to learn something this way, but if you have the discipline to do it, you'll learn much more than you would in a university course (IMO).

3. Learn the material and don't worry about the degree. https://teachyourselfcs.com/, for instance, is a good resource for self study.

4. Don't worry about it! You've got a good job. You make good money. Tinker with stuff on the side and invest more time where you want to invest more time. Or don't! Learn to play the piano or something. Consider why you're constantly thinking about your lack of a degree and why it's wearing you out. Are you actually bummed out about not having a degree? Or is it that you're not fully utilizing your creativity and curiosity? The solutions to those respective problems are different and if you're looking at spending thousands of dollars on a degree, it's worth being really _really_ clear on what problem you're trying to solve.

>40 years old. [Hardware] tech all my life. Slacked off, lazy. Never thought I could program. Started programming 3 years ago. Knocked on doors until I got programming spot at a Uni. Going back to school for free. 1 class per semester. Will graduate in 2029 maybe. Remembering to have gratitude for all things in life. ALL things. Have discovered that attitude and aims are important.

getting a job at a university is a great middle path. where I went they let professional staff take up to two classes a term.

I dropped out of undergrad to work in CS..and in my early 30s looked around at all the startups and said 'this is all crap, I want to try to do something real'

so I did manage to get into a PhD program at a good school. happy I did, I took all the graduate courses and filled in all kinds of gaps. but at the end of the day I looked at all the grad students putting together half-assed little projects on their own to try to get published and said 'this is all crap, I want to do something real'

I agree with everyone here who has said 'figure out why first'. you can do research on your own - and there are very few places left that would pay you to do it even if you did have the PhD.

edit: also don't underestimate how awkward it is to be older than your peers with a decade+ of industry experience. you really are coming in from a very different path and its not always appreciated. I found trying to talk about people about code to be particularly frustrating.

Unless you get a specialized degree, I wouldn't expect undergraduate level courses to help much with the fields you listed.

I did take a 3D graphics course, but that mostly instilled some basic concepts. I have no idea how to do something like contribute to a 3D game. At best I'm slightly better equipped to do Google searches to try to figure things out.

Is the opportunity cost of not having a degree in the field of your choice higher than the opportunity potential of having the one in the field you want to have a career in? Do you enjoy working underneath younger employees with less experience who are above you simply because they have a degree? It's simply harder to get into those interesting parts of computing without that piece of paper, and if you're going to put in the work to be on the same footing as those who are credentialed, you might as well get the credential to go along with it. At that point, you'll have erased the negative stigma you feel you have, and also know that any future failures to get where you want to go are not based on your lack of education. Knowing that it really IS about you is a cool piece of enlightenment that a lot of people aren't able to grok.

I’m in my early 40s. I just finished my Bachelors last year after 15 years in software. I did it on evenings and weekends, 2 courses at a time for about 3 years (I already had my associates)

I’m really pleased that I went back to school and finished, but school didn’t impart me with some mystical information that I couldn’t learn elsewhere.

University education in the topics under computer science are going to be theory based, which is great if you want to pursue the science of it.

I’m a strong advocate of higher education, and I’m never going to tell someone to not go back. I will tell you that I doubt school is going to give you the things you’re looking for. It might clear your schedule a bit to allow you to go after those things, but university study is largely structured. Sometime in your senior year you might get to structure your own education.

I was in a very similar situation and was able to go back and get my bachelors degree without putting my career on hold. Here is how:

- I used my tech background to get an IT job at local University. As a full-time employee, I was eligible for tuition remission.

- The majority of my classes were available in the evenings or online. For the evening in-person classes, I was already on campus for work, so getting to class was a non-factor.

- For the few required classes only offered during the day, I worked it out with my boss to take an extended lunch break to go to class. Turns out that IT managers in Higher Ed value continuing education for their employees.

It took about 6 years of going to classes part-time, but I graduated at age 35 with zero student loans.

Also, there are a lot more non-traditional students out there than you would think. Don't let your age be a deterrent.

If you feel bummed out and full of regret, go back and do it. Life's too short to live with doubts. Yeah, doing it now might not be ideal, but doing it later won't be either. Just make sure you're doing it for you - a piece of paper is unlikely to open many doors that solid work experience doesn't, but satisfying curiosity, the sense of accomplishment, and potentially improved mental health are all highly desirable.

I'd recommend online courses, not just because it will have less negative impact on your career, but also because you may find after a semester that your itch has been scratched and you feel comfortable without the degree, in which case it would be nice not to invest too much into the effort early on.

Anecdote: Not directly relevant, since we had different goals, but...

I had the same realization, at around age 28. Had a BS (both meanings) undergrad degree in applied science.

Path:

-Math fundamentals on Khan Academy. Videos, exercises etc. Algebra, trig, calc etc -A barrage of science classes for a few years on MitX, only after I was comfortable with the math. Physics, chem, bio, biochem, QM etc Lectures, excercises etc. - Got more aggressive with personal projects applying these. Ie transition from learning fundamentals, to applying them to practical problems.

It's not too late! It gets harder with age. EO Wilson (famous biologist and ant expert) described taking calculus for the first time in his mid 30s, and having a struggle.

I feel this. I went in for phys-eng 5 year program, failed out. Was lucky I picked up making websites on the side, now making applications/SWE by supplied job title. I still think about school but man it's a commitment/time sink/test of discipline. Also I still have debt from when I attended. I feel the same as OP but I think aside from money/professional, I could pursue those interests (SLAM/robotics for me) for personal passion.

I was in for 3 discontinuous years I didn't immediately fail out, once I started getting into quantum that math was a bit much for me and then tried to switch to comp sci but didn't cut it the grades. It was a discipline problem on my part/not doing my work.

Education != university.

I'm not deriding university, but education is everything. You are educating yourself for your entire life. What you learnt at university was that nobody was there holding your hand. To learn, you must do it yourself.

>But then I look around and see the cool jobs in 3D graphics, in distributed systems, in machine learning, or other "hard computer science" fields, and it feels like I will never be qualified without a graduate degree.

You're bored and you're hitting your 30s where you're concerned about 'could I have been more?' dont worry, everyone goes through this and it gets worse later in your 30s.

Sacrifice money in the bear term for time to study. Get a job like security guard where you can listen to classes on the job (to the extent it's possible to do both).

Be promiscuous with your study materials. The great freedom of being self taught is you don't have to stick with a book, or even a topic, that's not working.

When you feel unmotivated, meditate. Not in a woo woo feel the universe way, but in a practical one -- stepping back, considering your priorities and your history and the possibilities afforded by the world.

And if possible, find peers who care about the same thing(s). If you can't find them locally, you can always find them online.

Non-technical degree holder here (BA English ‘05) working as a developer.

Yes and no. Some employers are going to consider a lack of a CS degree as a negative, including some really large employers with interesting projects. If you want to work directly for those employers on those projects, you will most likely need not just a CS degree but one from a prestigious program.

If it means that much to you, definitely consider doing it, but in my experience that’s already a very narrow and competitive field to pursue, so make sure you’re not just settling for any CS degree but one that has a network of graduates working in those fields already.

I went back to school full time at 28 and graduated at 30, for computer science. I figured it was now or never. I already had two years in but dropped out for what in retrospect were dumb reasons.

Tuition had and has gone up an insane amount even since I've been out, I'm not sure I'd make the same choice today. As it is, for two years of school I spent 10 years paying it off (probably could have done it a bit faster).

But from an education and experience standpoint I don't regret it. And the feeling weird about being the oldest person there in most classes feeling went away after about two weeks.

Years ago I read a letter to an advice columnist that has stuck with me. The writer was debating going back to college and said something like "If it takes me four years to finish my degree, I'll be 50 when I'm done!"

The columnist's response was "And how old will you be in four years if you don't go back for a degree?"

Even if it takes you ten years doing it part time on the side, you'll be further ahead than if you never did it, and even if you never finish a degree you can still take some classes in the areas that are interesting to you.

I'm in the same boat. Dropped out from B.S. in Computer Engineering in the very last semester when I got a job offer from Sony abroad, initially seemed to be for SF then shifted to a position in Sweden.

I was a rebellious/idealist kid who read all the success stories here in HN and had an overblown confidence.

I am doing very good economically, but when it comes to visa and mobility internationally. Having a diploma helps a lot, I found. Beside having access to more intelectual communities of people through a master's programme for example.

You don't need a degree to get a job in tech in your 30s with work history on your resume. You also don't need a degree to learn things. There are so many courses from top colleges online for free today, and other learning resources too. All you need is motivation.

In my experience, motivation comes from interesting work. If you need to learn to make progress on a project you care about, you will learn. So what you need is a project that requires you to learn the things you want to learn.

Other than constantly thinking about it, have you had any actual negative consequences due to this?

I'm asking, because with only one exception, none of the employers I've worked at ever took a look at your education when making hiring decisions. It was maybe interesting as a talking point, if I went to the same school as the candidate I was interviewing, but that's it.

I think you should work on readjusting your thinking rather than figuring out how to get the degree.

I really wish there was an "executive" graduate degree for people like you. Executive MBA's exist for people working and wanting an MBA, I feel like a software engineering degree could work the same way.

Sure it would take twice the time, but unlike an undergrad you could study through the summer while working. Companies could even half fund this to upskill their workforce while retaining staff.

With so much education happening online, this should pre-eminently possible!

What you're talking about here is probably an "evening" or "professional" MBA. They definitely exist for fields other than business. My local high-ranking university offers about a dozen Professional Master's, including a well-respected Computer Science program. They usually have one Evening Bachelor's program of some sort as well (next year it's health informatics).

An Executive MBA is usually a very expensive rubber stamp for CEOs or VPs who clearly already have the skills an MBA would provide. The same university provides both an Executive MBA and a Global Executive MBA, which are 1.5 to 3x the cost and take substantially less time.

I'm in a similar position, thankfully in a country that cares even less about degrees than the US. I've just had to accept that, at this point in my life, going back to university would be a vanity project and nothing else. After >10 years experience, I'll never recoup the ROI on a return to study.

My advice would be that, if it's something that you would actually enjoy, or it'd scratch an itch you can't quite shake then go for it.

30 is not that old. Think of it this way - you have how many years of work left? 30-35, maybe longer? 2-3yrs to get a masters if not that long, relatively speaking.

Watch the online videos for freshman/sophomore CS courses and do the homework/projects (very important) from the corresponding textbook/course. Plenty of options exist: MIT OCW, etc.

If you have enough willpower to do that (and most people won't no matter how strong their regrets are), only then consider going back to college and even then a reputable online program would probably be your best bet.

Your 30s are probably your peak earning years for IT related fields then you start to slow down and get shuffled into management. Some folk do hang on over-40s in hands on tech but it has a limited shelf life. Computer games design is a young person's gig, IMO. Zero family and work you to death are the mantra for that industry. Sometimes the best thing to do is stay put. My two cents.

You have to keep going. All successful people accumulate the results of their past mistakes.

I don't think a distributed system or machine learning tool will work better for a guy with a piece of paper from Stanford or Harvard than for a guy who is willing to do the work.

People identify excellence. A degree can only say so much about a person's experience and knowledge.

If you want some more formal education to improve your confidence, why not try taking some classes without entering a degree program? You could pretty easily take one or two classes without adding too much to your plate and figure out whether it is actually something you want to pursue further without sacrificing your current job.

Nah, forget those cool jobs they don’t exist. They’re taken by a happy few. (Except perhaps machine learning where you can find a (probably bad) job after following a mooc).

It’s as if you were a dropout of acting school and you would lament that you should not have dropped out, cause all those acting stars didn’t.

If you don't have kids or family to feed, just finish your degree. Or do an online program. You have plenty of time.

If you want to get into 3d graphics, you could apply for an entry level position in the industry, for example, a Pipeline TD in Visual Effects (VFX) or an R&D position.

Usually it's very hard for them to find talent that has experience in the software field, and you can easily ramp up in the 3d graphics field while in the company.

But the pay is pretty bad

No it isn’t. It’s FAANG level without the stocks. I wouldn’t call it pretty bad.

"...and even if I were to do that I would still feel like a massive screw-up for going back to university in my 30s."

No need to feel like a screw-up. While most students may be in their early 20s, there are plenty of people in similar situations to yours, including those who went into the military to pay for college.

An online university might be an option.

They're very flexible, you can go as slow as you want, and get your degree while working.

If the university is worth anything, you'll of course have to attend exams in-person.

I know some options in Europe, which diplomas are approved by the EU, but do not have a clue about elsewhere.

Depends on where you are now and what you want to achieve. Deal with it, you'll probably never be hired by Google but you can still become a software or system architect in some interesting niche.

I know because I am and I have the exact same background as you, and for the same reasons.

Do it now. Sign up. 4 years later you will have it. The longer you wait the more agony you will go through. 89 years old only gotten his PhD. You can do it. I have seen many gotten their degree in their late teens and early 20s and go on to achieve nothing in life by their 40s.

Apply to the jobs and see what happens. Maybe you don't need the degree after all.

If you do end up needing it, you can probably transfer some of the credits you completed and do nightschool if you don't want to stop working.

I graduated with a degree in computer science and engineering and I feel like I'm in a similar boat. I'm older(48) with a family. All the cool tech seems so far way with maybe 5-10 hours a week available to learn.

You don't need a graduate degree to work on 3D graphics, distributed systems, nor in ML. You just need the time to learn these things. There might be pre-requisite material. Just learn them steps by steps.

Can contribute a bit here-

Would suggest there are two distinct motivations that should be teased apart. One of them is self-worth, one of them is skill/expertise development.

Self-worth: just about all of the folks I know who don't have a BS and are working in tech feel like they are imposturing. The absence of a credential impacts their personal sense of self-worth and qualification. A number of these folks are very, very senior, extremely skilled, well respected, etc. From what I have seen, it does not and has not impacted their career development/potential in the areas where they have skills. The imposturing is purely in their minds. I relatedly see folks who have a PhD from a second or third tier school and have a self-perception of being failures. In reality are incredibly sharp, organized, competent- ideal colleagues. Your mental health and self-image is your own, but this is a vote not to spend time/money for a credential primarily for a sense of worth.

Expertise: this is a different dimension. The areas you mention- some kinds of ML, 3d graphics, distributed systems, many others- to work there day to day requires deep and specific expertise. It does NOT require a degree. Just skills.

To learn deep things, you need to do deep work. There is no other way. You need to carve out the time and brainspace to devote serious attention. An academic environment with guidance from faculty following a curriculum can be an excellent- tho expensive- way to do that.

As someone with a BS who in their 30s felt the same pull towards depth and went back to grad school- I definitely felt the psychic weight of being far and away the oldest student in my cohort. I got over it. It was great to be able to do the work.

In terms of opportunity cost- life is long. You have the rest of your 30s, your 40s, your 50s, your 60s- at least- to be doing productive interesting work, even if you don't need to be doing it for financial reasons.

Concur with others that the best option is to work for an employer who will fund some or all of an MS. Schools- even top 10 CS programs- in reality DNGAF whether you have a BS. For many, MS programs are critical money makers. They care that prospective students bring the $ and can demonstrate technical, organizational, and communication skills. There is an admissions process- their faculty operate a human-limited scale so your $ will be ranked against other candidate $. But some school will want your $. Start to make lists of schools/programs in areas of interest to you. You deserve to give yourself the chance!

Best wishes.

brother, crack open a damn Brene-brown audiobook about vulnerability.

https://brenebrown.com/book/the-power-of-vulnerability/

Never feeling qualified, feeling like a screw-up for attending college in your 30's... these are stories you've made up in your head for how people gauge your worth.

close your eyes and think about where you want to be sitting in 5 years, work your way backwards, and start checking boxes...

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Ask yourself where you want to be in a couple years.

I don't think a degree is going to help in say 3D graphics, but it will help your career. Definitely a disadvantage for those that don't.

I think you can check out those online courses such as the ones on Coursera. Gatech... All have good resources and offer a good graduate degree in many fields of CS.

Do you really want to work in those fields? Those sound like high stress/high effort fields and I'm not sure they can pay high enough to compensate it.

And study economics, particularly of the labor market. Nothing has helped me make good decisions more than that. I wish I had done it ten years earlier

Are you my elder self? I'm almost in the same path and same situation but just few years younger than you. Looking at the answers here.

This received a lot more interest than I anticipated. Thanks for all the comments! I read them all even if I don't respond.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning, is my education"- Einstein.

What stops you from continuing your education part time?

a lot of good tech people dropped out of uni to persue a much faster career. maybe you did not mess up your education?