The Walkman came out when I was in 6th grade, and even though it seems lame now, I can tell you it was every bit as mind-blowing as the iPhone when it was first released. Now I could choose my music and take it with me, wherever I went. Prior to the Walkman, you either listened to music in your house, with parents in the next room (ew, gross!), or you listened to what the radio played for you (boring!).
> The Walkman came out when I was in 6th grade, and even though it seems lame now, I can tell you it was every bit as mind-blowing as the iPhone when it was first released.
I respectfully disagree; I was there too when it came out, and the walkman was a lot more mind-blowing and had a larger impact on the world than the iPhone.
The walkman was literally the first consumer device in its class (portable music players). It created the market.
The iPhone, even under the most generous interpretation, could never be considered the first consumer device in its class. IIRC, much of what the iPhone offered was already available in the consumer market, bearing in mind that the first iPhone did not even allow App development.
The original iPhone is the device which popularized capacitive touchscreens. Before that, we were using resistive touchscreens [1], if we were using touchscreens. In that sense, it has actually popularized touchscreens as we know them. It is an entire interface which is now not only the market leader in touchscreen in smartphones, it is replacing physical UI practically everywhere (sometimes that may not seem to make sense...). It has also replaced the default UI on websites, and iOS devices yield Apple more profit than macOS (or Mac OS X or whatever predecessor) ever did. Its huge.
[1] My printer (Brother) has a resistive touchscreen and every time I have to use it, I'm reminded how much resistive touchscreens suck.
>> it was every bit as mind-blowing as the iPhone when it was first released.
> I respectfully disagree
Agreed.
I think what is mind-blowing is that Sony (and others for that matter) weren't able to sustain their lead, continue to innovate and dominate the industry.
Well, perhaps that's not entirely fair since it's quite evident that they had the technical prowess. It probably had more to do with their conflict of interest of also being copyright purveyors.
edit: just remembered Sony's rootkit fiasco. What an absolute fall from grace.
If you change ‘players’ to ‘devices’. Transistor radios [1] had equal or greater cultural impact, as the _transistor_ is literally a technology leap forward—portable electronics.
I grew up in the age of the Walkman. What do you put in your Walkman? You made one of those great mix tapes. Radio was great. You could buy an album on tape and with a dual-drive boom box you could mix a tape (wow. mix tapes from radio were a cherished possession). You see. The Walkman did not succeed on its own.
You could listen to radio on a Walkman, but that’s 20+ year old tech. Not the revolution.
That’s an in the weeds argument. But the iPhone? Not as a music player. Not as a phone. Not by any one feature alone was a ‘game changer’.
Funny note. My Nokia N900 had a radio tuner! Not that I could ever get it to pick anything up.
That’s where Apple shines, by creating forward-looking products which break from the past.
Eugene Wei on the az16 podcast speaks about TikTok’s use of music in a social media experience. Of course, this is an extension of the capabilities of the iPhone to consume media, and also create and share it. Stunning.
Mindblowing - no doubt. Changing social culture though? What change did the walkman bring about?
The iPhone expanded the reach of the internet on everyone's lifes and revolutionized social culture and brought an enormous individualism:
- the narcistic selfie with an attractive filter replaced the group picture and changed how people view themselves
- expanded instant messaging, dating apps etc. enabled a lot of interaction but among highly selected individuals or groups
- navigation apps, review apps, spotify etc. enabled an individualistic movement through the world, individually entertained and shielded from strangers and random encounters
These changes, unless superceded by even crazier things in the future, will probably stand out to historians in the far future.
> Mindblowing - no doubt. Changing social culture though? What change did the walkman bring about?
- Music went from being a social activity to something you could privately enjoy
- You could listen to music wherever you wanted, whenever you wanted
- It was the first time, bar maybe some niche LCD games, that electronic entertainment was portable
- It was also the start of the decline of social interaction. Where people would put their headphones on and shut out the rest of the world. eg no longer chat to strangers on the bus.
Sure, there have been bigger changes to society, like the web, like micro computers, like kitchen appliances or even the car. But the Walkman is probably the least discussed and least credited of them.
> The iPhone expanded the reach of the internet on everyone's lifes and revolutionized social culture and brought an enormous individualism:
That was already happening with or without the iPhone. Don't get me wrong, it certainly help accelerate things, but it wasn't the only device out there nor even the first to do this.
> expanded instant messaging, dating apps etc. enabled a lot of interaction but among highly selected individuals or groups
Maybe in America, but that wasn't true in a lot of other continents. In the UK (for example) people still primarily used text up until relatively recently. Here the iPhone was largely just another handset (London is a slightly different story) and by the time smart phone apps became a thing the average person cared about, Android was already outselling iOS. The iPhone didn't really create that market either since feature phones would have services like this too. Again, I'm not saying the iPhone wasn't a contributor. But it your point was that is was at least mainly responsible for, and that simply wasn't the case in Europe.
> the narcistic selfie with an attractive filter replaced the group picture and changed how people view themselves
lol you do realise that people were doing that with disposable camera's in the 90s? I know this because I'm an old fart who used to do just that when out with mates. I have albums full of pictures printed on card (remember when that's what people would call a "photo") of such images with myself and friends in clubs, bars and holidays.
The iPhone wasn't even the first camera phone, nor even the first phone with a "good" multi-megapixel camera. That was an established market and an expectation that high end phones should have.
> navigation apps
I ran Google maps on my Sony Ericsson several years before the first iPhone was released. Some of my mates ran mapping software on their PDA's before me too. Fair enough these are edge cases but you're still forgetting about Android.
> review apps
Yes, that massive pivot in society, "review apps". But again, not an iPhone exclusive.
> spotify etc. enabled an individualistic movement through the world, individually entertained and shielded from strangers and random encounters
Aside from the Spotify branding there, you're literally just describing the Walkman!
Don't get me wrong, the iPhone definitely had a big cultural impact. But you're massively over attributing changes the technological and social landscape to one of what was actually many similar devices all making the same inroads in the same decade. Yet it was the Walkman (and similar cassette players) that started that journey in the first place.
The cultural change you describe seems to be minor: enjoy music privately, (minor) decline in social interaction.
The iPhone doesn't get credit to be the first, as you said, but triggered the broad adaptation and therefore has the bigger cultural impact across many dimensions.
Parents hated the Walkman. They said pretty much the same thing we say about the youngs these days with their devices: they're "tuned out". And, to be honest, they were right. We put on our Walkmans and listened to our mixtapes, ignoring social interaction. This was a major cultural change, and personally, I think this is a significant reason my generation (GenX) became known as the "slacker" generation.
> The cultural change you describe seems to be minor: enjoy music privately, (minor) decline in social interaction.
I also said:
> Sure, there have been bigger changes to society, like the web, like micro computers, like kitchen appliances or even the car. But the Walkman is probably the least discussed and least credited of them.
Plus those changes were still much larger than "dating apps", "review apps" and the other suggestions you raised :P
> The iPhone doesn't get credit to be the first, as you said, but triggered the broad adaptation and therefore has the bigger cultural impact across many dimensions.
Did it though? I cited several reasons why I disagree with that already:
- Android
- pre-existing feature phones with J2EE app support
- Android
- pre-existing PDAs
- Android
- pre-existing cameras
- Android
- pre-existing music players, like the Walkman!
- oh and had I mentioned that Android, RIM and others massively outsold iOS for years in Europe.
I'm an iPhone user myself so don't take this as biased view point. But iPhone took a hell of a lot longer to penetrate the European market than it did America. And we haven't even touched Russian, Indian or African markets. People on HN seem to forget that other markets exist and Apple weren't nearly as influential on them.
I agree that the walkman got very little credit in historical importance. But even the walkman wasn't that widespread; on a train in the 80s or 90s really only a small number of people was using one, as far as I remember. Actual significant changes would have been if, say, an important musical genre was born out of it, or a social movement was enabled by walkmen which is not the case I think.
That's why I said "broad adaptation". These days there are situations where everone in a room is looking into the smartphone. So, the iPhone as a coincidental almaganation of already existing, maturing technologies happened to be in the right place at the right time to be considered as a historic turningpoint, without taking anything away from the pre-existing feature phones wiht J2EE app support.
Walkman was massive with < 20s in my town. By the mid-90s most kids had one (if not Sony then certainly some other brand). Maybe it was a regional thing
I live in Haiti and people here will readily buy a used Samsung phone for about $100 or a cheap Chinese one for less. Used iPhones can go for $300 or more. iPhone penetration is very low and most people only have the 6 and 7 one.
Not even Android. The Palm OS, particularly on Treo, did nearly every function that an iPhone does today. The Treo even had a selfie mirror near the camera.. I had Facebook for Palm OS 13 years ago.
> it was every bit as mind-blowing as the iPhone when it was first released
I agree with you - the revelation of walking down the street with an internal soundtrack was almost life-transforming, and I don't think any other electronic gadget since then has had the same immediate, visceral, immersive sensory impact as the first time I put a tape into my brand-new Walkman[0] on London's Tottenham Ct Rd (the mecca of UK electronics in the 80s), and started playing Duran Duran's opening chords inside my head while walking amongst other people.
In the following years I bought Minidisc players, DAT recording machines and tiny DAT players - and they were all marvels of micro-engineering and beautiful to own and use - the top-of-the-line models being exquisitely and minimalistically designed and manufactured. All of these were still functioning when I stopped using them - though now it's a few years since I took them out of their boxes.
My father bought a camera in 80s, very similar to this[1]. It was extensively used to capture our memories and we stopped using it around late 90s. However the camera stayed around, at one point my adolescent son used it as a toy, and it was rough handled. One day I saw it lying about the house and picked it up and tried to operate it. Almost every button was functional, spring operating perfectly, shutters open/close mechanism intact. It was as if still well maintained. No rust, and absolutely no mechanical malfunction. Even the camera roll counter aligned perfectly against the marker. I was astonished. I couldn't but marvel at the quality of Japanese engineered product. Not only was precisely built but it was also rugged and the material used oozed quality. Respect.
Walkmans were quite amazingly complex for being an all mechanical device. A friend got one, dropped it and asked me to repair it - my reputation is that I can fix anything. Well, not so with the Walkman. Opening it up took more time than any other device I ever worked on and I distinctly remember the moment when I removed one screw holding a plate down after which the whole thing went 'sproing' and there were parts all over the desk. I knew there and then that I wasn't ever going to get it back together again. That didn't stop me from trying though, but after a week or so I had to give up. Serious respect for both the design and the manufacture of a device so compact and so complex. And as long as you didn't drop them on concrete from two meters up they were surprisingly rugged.
Lesson learned: if a metal plate creeps up with every turn of the last screw it might be spring loaded and you'd better hold it down while you undo that last screw so you can release the spring tension gradually rather than all at once...
Ok, I'm biased since I was a kid during the 80s but two things strike me:
1. I still love the design language of the Walkman with brushed colored metal. Why can't we have that today?
2. It strikes me that a lot more thought and engineering has gone into these products compared to today. Most things today are just cheap all over with pointless design without function.
I was a bit too young, got into music around the time of mp3s, but the Walkman always looked insanely cool. It's one of those rare things that makes you sort of regret technological progress.
It's kind of funny that in one post, one wants "brushed colored metals" and then complains about the modern, pointless design without function.
I'm not sure what general line of products you're talking about, but devices like phones and tablets surely have orders of magnitude more "thought and engineering" in them. The fact that you don't like the tradeoffs they provide doesn't mean they weren't engineered and considered.
I know what line of product he's talking about. He's talking about phones that look like seashells and luxury soaps, suited for handbags and walks with a French bulldog.
And on the other hand, just because someone thought about a design doesn't make it good. (To the degree that one believes design can be good/bad and it's not all subjective)
My introduction into the Walkman was the WM-F5, one of the yellow sport models with rubber buttons. That was pretty iconic to me, and the other versions all looked pretty flimsy in comparison.
I absolutely loved Sony's "Sports" models. I guess it was just a little extra peace of mind for me; it's not like I really abused my stuff. But it was nice to know (or at least think!) that it would take accidental abuse.
I wish more companies would do something like that: produce a "Sport" model of their regular things... take the regular model, make it a little more rugged, charge a little more.
I think a truly rugged iPhone or flagship Android device would sell in a major way. Clearly it's something a lot of people want: look at all the people that wrap their phones in big fugly rugged cases.
I've read rumors over the years (from Daring Fireball, etc) that Apple has been toying around with a rugged "Explorer" (surely a working title + reference to the Rolex Explorer) variation of the Apple Watch for quite a few years. I hope they pull the trigger, I hope it sells, and I hope it starts a bit of a trend.
Apple would be in a very unique position to pull something like this off with their Macbooks, too. Traditionally "rugged" laptops have made major performance compromises. After all, performance = heat = airflow requirements, so you can't have a sealed laptop with top of line performance, unless you stick some giant cooling fins on it or something. At least traditionally.
But Apple's M1 chips show that performance doesn't have to be compromised for a fully sealed design.
I got my first walkman when I was 9. It is the best device I have owned ever (it's still working, although I don't use it anymore). The second best device is my iPod Shuffle (4th gen), which is sadly dying slowly and I can't find a good replacement (I don't like to go out for a run with my phone sticked to my arm, nor I use Spotify/Apple Music or any music platform... I have tons of mp3 files).
I still have an iPod Shuffle 2nd gen - amazing little device. I've been using it when I run for over 10 years now. I love it as much now as the day I bought it.
Just imagine if it was made today. It would stop working after a year cuz it broke or due to some "Software incompatibility" which conveniently makes you get a new version of it
Bluetooth, that's an interesting feature request. Radio firmware needs to be maintained. People here say they used a iPod Shuffle for 10 years. There's no way any device is going to have a secure Bluetooth stack for 10 years. The chipsets get neglected after a couple of years, IF you are lucky.
Used to have (or, make use of) a walkman as well, a blue Sony model with a shoulder strap. I don't really miss that one too much, but I do miss my old ipod mini, the chunky one with the aluminium case. That one was stolen from my coat pocket at a job I used to have, probably by a shady colleague who later rocked up in a new scooter. The company was graceful about it though and gave me some money for a replacement - there weren't any lockers available for valuables. From that, I bought an ipod nano (the long body version), which was also fine.
Eventually sold that one to my dad and got myself an ipod touch (I had made a preorder for an iphone 3G or something but cancelled it because I couldn't justify the €50 / month to myself). But it wasn't the same.
That new search engine is cool as f. Instant Bookmark.
Reminded me about HN in early days, I practically formed part of my career based on the shared content here.
The other part was formed by the Apples HIG.
Good old days:)
Does anyone know of a lo-tech digital audio player with amazing battery life (weeks/months?). Sometimes i go through periods of listening to the same tune on repeat for days on end (I find it helps me concentrate), and i dont want to worry about it running out of charge or me forgetting to charge it.
I had dreadful cassette players growing up, though I recently (in the last few years) picked up a new old stock HS-PC202MIII and it sounds fabulous.
I buy a lot of digital music off of bandcamp and where possible I buy a cassette (inclusive of a digital copy), just because of the different experience when listening with that format.
The language on the site is intriguing. Do enthusiasts refer to Sanyo and Panasonic personal stereos as "Walkmans"? (And is the plural of Walkman really Walkmans?)
Ahh happy memories. My first Walkman didn’t even have rewind. One had to remove the tape, flip it over, place back in, forward the tape (which acted to rewind the other side), remove tape, place back in. Then repeat until you hit the sweet spot you were after :D
I bought a Panasonic walkman when I graduated high school in 1984. That summer I remember riding my bike to the beach listening to music through headphones. It was a weird sense of freedom to have music that close and personal outdoors (everywhere, really), unlike lugging a boombox. I was listening to Rush's Fly By Night. I bet my kids will need to play Rush for me to snap me out of my dementia when I'm in my 90's.
IMHO a uni-tasker has more personality than a general purpose glass gadget. Not sure why that is, perhaps the multi-tasking iPhone is so generic it is stripped of identity, unlike a Walkman, doin' its Walkman thing. I visited a Dieter Rams museum in Germany and his devices are so much more appealing than Jony Ive's cultural impact. Again, it feels like art, but also I think the task is part of it.
I'm sure some design researcher could explain this feeling.
I had an unlucky slow-playing 1990 Sony Walkman. Spent my pocket money on the best model Sony WM-F707, it could record too. I was happy at first.
But something was off. Songs didn't sound right to me. Other people couldn't notice, but I eventually confirmed the issue by syncing playback with other stereos. Songs were in sync at start, but by end my Walkman was lagging behind slightly. Tried different tapes, same result.
Warranty had expired but my friend's Dad agreed to take a look. He was a technician at Sony, a remarkably promising coincidence. My hopes were up. But his verdict was "yes it plays a bit slow but is within the acceptable tolerance". As far as I know he didn't open it up, as there wasn't a problem to fix.
Personally I'm glad "acceptable tolerance" of playback speed is ancient history!
My dad worked with the Sony R&D labs throughout his career and brought back various Walkmen and other strange devices for the Japanese market. We kids loved it, of course, and put these things through some pretty rough days of listening to our mix tapes. I remember all of them failing, most of the newer models were much too complex and held together with tiny screws to survive for long. I've heard that Japanese consumers are much more careful with their stuff, keep it in the little pouches and generally protect their gear from abuse.
I've heard that Japanese consumers are much
more careful with their stuff
I've always heard that as well and anecdotally it matches my experience when ordering previously-owned items from Japan via eBay, etc.
One could conjecture a number of reasons. Relative to America, the average Japanese living space is smaller and when one owns less items I imagine one would take care of each item more carefully. Additionally, some items are simply more expensive in Japan: physical media such as music CDs have typically been something like 2x as expensive as in America.
I suspect it actually goes deeper than that and there are deeper cultural factors at play, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to expound on them.
As an American I've never understood how other Americans can be so rough with their stuff. I'd rather own fewer, nicer things and maintain them. Perhaps it's just my innate cheapness.
Of course, if I had free Walkmans like you as a kid -- I bet I would have abused them too. After all, they were free =)
I suspect you're right about the Japanese culture and definitely about the cost of things.
When it comes to being rough with my stuff I think I've learned some lessons: I'm careful, for example, with the vintage watch my wife gave me but I expect my power tools to be able to handle some tough use cases. I have been fortunate enough that I'm able to buy higher quality stuff now that I'm older so that helps.
I asked my (relative to us) wealthy grandparents for a Walkman, one Christmas. Just a normal, cassette playing walkman, you know. They instead asked for the coolest model, which apparently lead them to, I think it was called a Sportman (?), which was sleek, yellow, and radio only. RADIO ONLY.
I lived in an unincorporated mountain town of 3,000 people. I still wore it sometimes, imagining I looked cool, but all it picked up were fuzzy, Spanish voices or snatches of talk radio.
One of those inconsequential, but massive at the time, disappointments.
Yup! And the ones with full logic controls that could be controlled via a dongle on the earphones wire! And automatic reverse so you didn't have to pop out and flip the tape! And automatic skip!
Such an exciting time.
It's funny to think about all the effort that went into innovating technologies to overcome the shortcomings of analogue solutions.
I used to think that future would be created by all these Japanese technological powerhouses. "How can the US compete?!?!"
I miss portable devices with satisfying buttons / switches for the occasional fidgetting. iPhone ringer switch suffices, but doesn't quite hit the spot. Last Android with fun clicky switches was LG back buttons.
I think the answer is that it's a lot more than you think, but I posit the problem is discoverability. You just can't go on Google to find it anymore.
It may sound like a pedantic point, but the truth is that there are more websites than before and so even if you can't know about it because Google Search really sucks nowadays, maybe one day they could be found either through luck or a better search engine taking shape. Point is, discoverability is different from not existing at all.
As for sites that eventually become defunct, we have archiving tools that somewhat work. The Internet Archive could be far far better:
- stop bowing down to takedown requests
- make the archive and its tools easily self-hostable
- make it so a P2P network can distribute it
- improve the JavaScript response logic recording as if you really were on the site
