This seems like something that could be detected while it’s happening (*). Maybe iPhones could warn users before lasting damage occurs?
(*) Edit: I was assuming that damage to the camera accumulates over time. If it happens on short time scales or as a single event as nicce's reply seems to suggest, this renders the notification idea moot ofcourse.
It is very likely that it is too late on that point. It might be hard to detect or pick up your phone from your pockets when driving.
Even harder if it is on chassis somewhere.
Could be interesting sci fi technology to “wrap” the sensitive parts in a shell kind of like a roly poly bug (it would have to be more than a wrap and more of securing foam that disappears, but interesting to ponder)
I live about 5 miles (on the same road) as the local Harley Davidson dealership and would love it if HD riders left the stock pipes on their bikes. While the engines do vibrate, don't dismiss the additional concussive force of an unmuffled exhaust.
(Sweden situation). There's recurring inspections of any vehicle, binannually or something maybe for motorcycles. The HD people I know/knew, would change back to the stock pipes for inspection, because the loud ones were not legal to use. Then just change back again.
Had a friend who put an Akrapovic on his MT-07 - DB killer is welded but once you drill through a small part on the weld you can remove it/put it back easily and the drill hole is covered by carbon shield so unless they disassemble the shield to check (and my friend had it like this for 5 years before selling IIRC) it was just pull out - put it back in for technical
Generally, well designed bikes assume a certain pressure in the exhaust pipe and use it as a way to compute the internal combustion cycle timings, since it affects the movement of air and how long it stays and how fast it is likely to move on. So changing the pipes without doing anything indeed affects performance. That’s why most pipe changes usually also come with a reflash of the bike’s ECU so that the onboard computer can know new pipe’s air resistance parameters.
USA long-time motorcycle owner here: agree. I believe there have been laws on the books for many years regarding noise limits, but they are (effectively) NEVER enforced. No-muffler-at-all ("straight-pipe") exhausts on V-twin (EX: Harley Davidson and its countless clones) are de facto standard (and for reasons unclear to me are accepted).
Also, aftermarket exhaust systems for motorcycles (99.9% of these being much louder than stock/OEM) are a huge business: I'd guesstimate that 50% of motorcycles sold in the USA soon (< 1 year old) end up running aftermarket exhaust systems; it's a standard first modification done by almost all enthusiast owners.
Anecdotally I've heard that they are mostly used as a way to stop riced out Japanese cars.
Not ppl on motorcycles. As someone who has run straight pipes across two major cities never had an issue. A bunch of motorcyclists don't even have licenses lol.
The EPA prohibits modifying exhausts on motorcycles to exceed some decibel limit (80 something IIRC?), and this is stamped into the muffler on my motorcycle.
I'm not commenting either way on the value of loud motorcycles here, but is this related to the article? It says the danger comes from mounting the phone directly to the bike. As far as I can tell, it doesn't say that the acoustic vibrations damage the phone. Would the muffled exhaust also reduce the physical vibrations of the frame?
Judging by the vibrations of my walls: yes. The sooner a maximum noise emitted law for vehicles goes into practice the better. I have a neihgbor here who goes out for small trips 20+ times per day on his HD. Open the garage door, take the bike out (running, of course), close the garage door, rev it a couple of times, wait for a few minutes for the engine to warm up, roar away at maximum volume. Return 10 minutes later, leave bike on the stand while opening the garage door. Turn off bike. Close garage door. Wait 1/2 hour or so, rinse, repeat. No idea what he's up to but it's not a normal usage pattern as far as I can see and I'd be a-ok with that if he would not make so much noise. Even with headphones on you can clearly hear it and the vibration is enough to rattle the cup on my desk. With noise cancelling on on the headphone I don't hear him.
Sounds like someone needs to build an MRAD. You can put out as much noise as he does, and make sure it is very carefully aimed at the only suitable target.
Not, as far as I know it's all legal, just super annoying. I also don't see the point of going through the whole ritual so many times per day. I really started to notice because of the work-from-home situation after the COVID pandemic took off, if not for that it would have never come to my attention.
Noise cancelling headphones can negate it but it could damage a phone? This seems more like the place for people to gather and say "I don't like motorcycles because loud." Which is fine, but let's not really say it's related to the post.
You have a reading comprehension problem. The one situation is where a phone is in very close proximity or even mounted on the bike, the other where there is multiple 10's of meters between my seat the motorcycle, as well as me being inside a house.
It's more that it is hard to pick out your main article-related point from the bulk of the comment, which is just a complaint against a neighbor. I'm not against your frustration or in favor of your neighbor.
So it sounds like you're saying that if your neighbor's bike can shake your walls at that distance, then the same sound could/would damage the phone at a smaller distance? I'm not confident either way on that, other than believing that resonance probably plays a large part when it comes to the acoustic vibrations. Apple also did not say that the phones would be damaged just by being near the bike, so they may not be affected by it (or Apple is omitting that part, which wouldn't surprise me)
He’s a delivery drug dealer. Very common for heroin and a major enabler of the heroin overdose epidemic. Allows people who are too zonked to do anything to still get their fix. Pioneered by Mexicans but now adopted by all kinds of criminal gangs.
Yeah it’s just being a nuisance for the sake of it.
There was one who lived over the road from me a few years back who would rev his broken exhaust bike at 5am and wake everyone up. About three weeks later his motorcycle mysteriously caught fire in the early evening. There were people smirking out of their windows enjoying the schadenfreude. There’s still a puddle of aluminium melted into the ground where it died.
> Yeah it’s just being a nuisance for the sake of it.
It's a lot like rolling coal[1]. No actual safety purpose, people do it simply to project insecurity and irritate others. Sometimes I think society is too tolerant of purely antisocial behavior, but I guess in the US everyone has the freedom to be a donkey.
Yes, but the proximity is such that the soundwaves themselves could conceivably vibrate the case enough to do damage if it is in a partially enclosed space and facing out (because that way it gets pressure from only one side, essentially a reverse bass speaker).
It's not a bad hypothesis, but would Apple have withheld that info if they were already advising people of the danger of direct mounting? They could just advise people to keep their phones inside a padded box or something of the sort.
Sorry, but as a person with over 15 years of motorcycle driving experience - "loud pipes save lives" is mostly a myth.
They may help sometimes, but they can also be dangerous since in some settings they can scare the heck out of the car driver which can lead to them making unpredictable choices.
Ultimately, the best thing a rider can do is take total ownership over our safety - full protective gear, constantly taking advanced riding training courses, and above all - always riding at a reasonable speed for the road, visibility and traffic conditions.
You just reminded me of an incident that happened to me on I83 near the PA border - a motorcyclist passed between me and the vehicle in the left lane (yes ... a two-lane road passing on the dashed line) going about 120 MPH. It wasn't the cycle passing at high speed very close to the car that scared me ... it was that I never saw him/her in my mirrors and the noise between two cars that were 4 feet apart was horrendous. I actually made me flinch at the wheel and I probably swerved a foot in my lane.
I've known many conscientious motorcycle drivers but it's people like this that lead to emergency room doctors referencing "donorcycles".
This is especially true in modern cars with great sound deadening and NVH. As my group of riders has observed when we ferry bikes into winter storage, the only bikes we can hear at all in our cars are practically straight piped.
That’s the sales pitch, but I haven’t seen any evidence. Almost all the sound is projected behind you, where people can already see you (and where high-vis clothing would be more effective than sound anyway, but you don’t see many bikers wearing that).
Anecdotally, the people I’ve known with loud exhaust systems are not what you’d call “safety conscious”.
This!! Mufflers and subwoofers wake up my child in the middle of the night and only we know how long it takes to fall asleep again. Its frustrating because both of these sources are completely unnecessary
Isn't that to say that's its worse than ineffective? That suggests it causes bikers to do more dangerous things because they think the loudness is protecting them
Mm, but I'm in my house, not on the road. There's no danger from me crashing into this motorcyclist.
My bicycle isn't very loud though; should I be attaching a subwoofer t9 it because I'm around the same cars and trucks? So far, bicycling has been plenty safe without the loudness
This doesn’t deserve to be downvoted. The statement is correct. I have a permanently destroyed right foot and ankle because someone made a left turn from the right lane just outside the Holland Tunnel in NJ back in 2004. The driver “didn’t see me” before making the illegal turn and planting his Mercedes horizontally across my lane as he slowed to enter the gas station driveway. I laid my quiet 800cc bike down and plowed into his car at 40mph, crushing my right leg between the bike and his driver side door. I now have 4 toes, limited mobility, and near constant pain with every step I take. After that I put straight pipes on my bike and had countless other situations where a car would start to change lanes into me and then move back when I gunned the engine to let them know I was there. Loud pipes save lives. Car drivers are often oblivious of their surroundings or distracted by their phones or music. When they check their blind spot the brain is looking for car or truck shapes and ignores motorcycle shapes as it quickly assesses the clearance of the lane. I’ve had people look right at me and then change lanes into me. I’ve kicked cars and cabs from my motorcycle as they are pushing me off the road. 100% of accidents where a car hit a bike use the excuse of not seeing the motorcyclist. I’ll make sure they can hear me too.
Sorry for your accident. Just wanted to share my contrary experience.
A motorcycle with loud pipes filtering right passed me fast in a two lane road while I was on the left lane, I was in my car. I am a former enduro rider myself and don't react when I hear a loud one, but the driver in front panicked as he was most probably didn't see him coming from his mirror, did a hard left, came dangerously close to barriers and did a hard right to correct, hit the motorcycle pushing him to the right lane. Motorcycle barely fit the space there and luckily didn't crash, but it was all happened on a very straight road with no one was turning or doing any movement, just straight driving.
After 15 years, I have enough confidence that being muffled or not does not make any difference to safety, people hearing the thunder but not seeing the source is equally lethal to a rider. I'd rather have proper training, constant wearing full body armored motorcycle clothes and a much lighter/cooler riding attitude (not saying you didn't have / do any of this).
Have the roads gotten more dangerous in the past 15 years?
Also the issue people have with loud exhaust is not that it draws attention on the highway; it's that people use it as a tool to be obnoxious. When I lived in a small town I would regularly get woken up at 2am by some shmuck opening up on main street. The entire town would be woken up. I had the urge to chase them down. It's not good for anyone.
And that's the real reason. These toddler narcissists are out to make it known to the world that here rides a badass, not that there is someone who drives responsibly and whose life depends on the volume of their exhaust. It's pathetic.
I have neighbors, friends, and family who ride motorcycles either for the speed or for the sound. They're mostly reasonable about it. But the thing about loud machines is that they are loud for everyone, who didn't get to choose whether to listen to that engine at 2AM.
The comparison to toddlers is apt because we expect adults to be aware of the effects their actions have on others, and take steps to mitigate them in social reciprocity.
I'm sorry to hear that, but it's unlikely to improbable that "bike wasn't loud enough" was the cause there.
Throwing away the idea that people in cars don't impede their own hearing with radio stations and music; sound produced by engines is not fantastically directional to hear and mostly trails behind bikes (due to that being the location of the exhaust).
It sounds equivalent to driving your car around with the horn constantly pressed for safety. Why not get a horn or something for your bike? Or wouldn’t that sound as cool?
Road bikes too. I wrecked my iPhone 8’s autofocus after riding ~1000 miles with it on a handlebar mount. Obviously there’s no engine vibration but chip-and-seal roads have a similar effect.
I've read the same, but my Pixel 3 had no issues after ~12.000km, half on it on asphalt, the other half on gravel and some rougher parts. Then a Motorola and a Xiaomi which I guess shared each half of the ~12.000km (two phones mounted, Xiaomi replaced Motorola halfway, both in parallel to the Pixel 3), where both of these devices (not the Pixel) were making automatic photos at geofenced spots during the ride (one of the street, to record the wet/dry condition, one of the selfie camera to record the sky condition cloud/sunny).
Though I do use a rubbery holder with good damping properties [1] and only recently moved over to a fixed one out of aluminum [2] for one of the phones, which could start causing this issue.
6S Plus did have OIS (in any case all cameras have autofocus which involves moving lens elements).
Probably the vibration in that situation didn't match the resonant modes of the camera components. It's probably a fairly rare event where everything lines up just right.
It isn't just iPhone, and it can happen on any motorcycle regardless of the engine size or power. The OIS in my Pixel 4a is destroyed from using a mount for less than an hour.
Just to be clear, this isn't about using the camera while mounted on the bike, but having the phone mounted ever actually damages the camera for any use, mounted or otherwise?
TLDR shaking the phone anywhere at any time with certain amplitude / frequency combinations will permanently damage sensitive components and make pics look like you’ve got ALS again
Yeah they actually go into more interesting detail than expected from a support article and detail how (not an expert so it could just be wool over my eyes Apple BS but doesn’t smell that way here) the OIS and closed loop AF work in that article.
Basically sensitive gadgets shouldn’t be exposed to certain frequency / amplitude combinations because sensitive gadgets rely on well, not being shaken out of whack.
Exactly. It doesn't even require the operation of the image stabilization for the damage to happen. The damage happens when it reaches that magic frequency where the components break.
The camera becomes blurry and shaky - completely useless. It's a common and well known issue if you happen to mount the phone on your handlebars (do NOT do this). I have several friends who've had this happen in the last year. All the way up to 12 Pro.
Dashboards are not bolted directly to engines. The issue is that motorcycle parts are more directly connected to the engine. Sportbikes normally use the engine as a structural member, bolting all the other bits and pieces to the engine block. So vibrations through motorcycle handlebars and such are more intense than those on the dash of even an extreme muscle car.
Presumably the steer bar is detached somewhat as it turns the front wheel which is sprung? Also, I can imagine that the vibrations also make it tiring to hold. So just like a proper sander can be used without getting tired arms from the shaking.
Ignore the motorcycle bit completely and just think physics
You could trigger this on any oscillating “body” if that body is oscillating at a certain frequency and amplitude combination.
It just so happens motorcycle engines produce that combination. There would certainly be others. tHe sustained nature of the shaking would also be cause for concern but I didn’t see any mention of duration in the support article
Potentially? But it’s a known issue only to motorcyclists and (pedal)cyclists. idk why Apple is saying this is due to engine vibration but I think it has more to do with hard suspensions.
Cars are better insulated and vibrate less in the first place. But if you do offroad and gravel with lots of vibrations, I think it might increase the risk.
> Attaching your iPhone to vehicles with small-volume or electric engines, such as mopeds and scooters, may lead to comparatively lower-amplitude vibrations.
No superbikes for you Apple users :D - recoils in anticipation of onslaught of downvotes -
In all fairness I expect it's going to be difficult to design anything with such small delicate moving parts to be invulnerable to arbitrary frequency vibrations. It can also be challenging to accurately model the resonant frequency response of composite "stuff" prior to manufacturing it (many bridges have failed). Better luck with the next model I guess...
I keep my iPhone in my jacket pocket and use the bluetooth module on my helmet. I also have a Garmin GPS on the handebar of my touring bike, although in 2021 you can get GPS built right into the bike's instrument panel.
(To be fair, my most preferred navigation method on long trips is to tape a piece of paper with handwritten notes to the fuel tank anyway.)
> (To be fair, my most preferred navigation method on long trips is to tape a piece of paper with handwritten notes to the fuel tank anyway.)
Nice to know I'm not alone. This is how I drive cars long distance (but without taping it to a fuel tank), smartphones are handy for quick short navigation, but I feel uncomfortable trusting it for longer journeys - I want to know where i'm going and how i'm going there.
The funny thing is that the act of writing down a summary of the journey, even with diagrams is usually enough for me to remember the whole thing.
I think the problematic engines are big Harley twins which vibrate like hell and run relatively low revs. Superbikes engines are usually operate on high RPMs and vibrate less.
A friend of mine has had his phone replaced twice due to this before figuring out the cause, however now that there’s a formal publication in it I’d bet that changes.
This gets closer to slippery-slope argument, because in that case everything happens on black box software and is easier to manipulate or error prone. Apple can just say that logs say your gyro tells this and this.
At which point you can’t trust for the warranty of your phone? Moisture stickers can be validated by third party in theory at least.
> does the iPhone internally log strong vibrations sensed through the gyro/accelerometer
I would lean heavily towards "yes".
The why, I guess we'll never know the real answer, but I remember rumours, years ago, of manufacturers denying warranty claims based on "dropped" devices thanks to the gyro data.
I hear people use amalgamation all the time, when the word they actually meant is amalgam, the result of amalgamation.
However, language is democratic, and the preference of people like you and me will be pushed into the proverbial footnotes over centuries as similar sounding words amalgamate into synonyms.
I wonder what the signs of degradation are? I use my phone attached to my handle bars and the phone shakes so much that I can have the camera app open and see the picture vibrating, it won’t actually let me take a picture or video. If I start the video then the bike it will record but blurry. I’m on an iPhone 8 so might have older camera less sensitive to this.
Rigid car phone holders routinely fall off for me thanks to frequent potholes in India. The ones with adjustable shoulder and elbow joint shake violently but don't dislodge, as an inadvertent feature. Its time for new generation of phone mounts.
This exact thing happened to my friends who goes on a cycle trip daily. He had his samsun s8+ attached to the habdlebar. The phone is damaged now - camera shakes, can't focus, etc.
Years ago I had the vibrator in my phone go out as a result of being on my handlebars. Was really surprised to not see something about this come out earlier tbh.
People mount phones to their handlebars for GPS navigation and to use as speedometers on bikes that did not come with one from the factory (e.g. dirt bike conversions in places where that is legal)
dharmab is correct, the use on dirt bike handles is common, doing things a GoPro can’t.
On the camera side, a GoPro is fixed-focus and has a fixed aperture of (usually) f/2.8 and varies the exposure, shutter speed and frame rate unless set. There is no autofocus to damage. However, there are also no navigation apps for GoPro.
"Attaching your iPhone to vehicles with small-volume or electric engines, such as mopeds and scooters, may lead to comparatively lower-amplitude vibrations, but if you do so a vibration dampening mount is recommended."
Oh boy I can see it now: Apple to unveil $500 All Aluminum Motorcycle Mounting Kit with vibration dampening sensors and hyper shock absorbing rubber.
Then we watch them do something incredibly stupid like pair the mounts to phones so you can't just unhook it and let a friend borrow it.
ICE motorbikes seem like the most obvious type of vehicle to immediately mandate 100% EV, with an aggressive target like 12 months (to clear out existing inventory).
The segment and vehicles themselves are small enough that this changeover can be made fairly easily, with immense benefits for noise pollution in cities.
You are clearly not a biker... otherwise you might have understood why EV motorcycles are years, maybe decades into the future.
If you refer to e.g Asia where motorcycles are possibly your only transport, then sure; your argument is valid. But this is HN, and in Western countries a motorcycle is basically a hobby. Heck, they are often even more expensive to run than cars.
So as to why EV bikes are not even close to being ready:
(a) The range is abysmal, and the availability of charging simply isn't there in areas that many bikers venture (away from traffic, hundreds of miles into the hills). Motorcyclists try to avoid the interstate and main highways if possible. You rarely see a Zero bike for this and many other reasons. A proper ride may be 12 hours per day for hundreds of miles, for days on end.
(b) Battery mass. The energy per mass unit in even the best batteries make it very impractical with motorcycles that really need to be as light as possible.
(c) Longevity. A lot of bikers own not just one, but many motorcycles. You may have the latest BMW R1250GS, but also a garage littered with anything from KDX 200 to DRZ 400 and Honda CBR1000RR. Those bikes can still be used for years to come, and it doesn't make sense to scrap them. PS - bikes are generally not that reliable though, but that doesn't necessarily affect longevity too much as owners love to tinker.
It is kind of inevitable in the long run if cars move on to being EVs, where will bikes fill up if there are no more gas stations?
That being said, I’ve only ever seen one EV motorcycle in China once (not just a big electric bike), it had unreal acceleration, I’m not sure it would be safe to ride.
It'll be a long time before the whole car fleet turns over, and then you've got gasoline powered box vans and what not, too.
But as (or if) the liquid fuel demand drops, you'll probably see the density of stations drop too. Both fewer pumps per station and fewer stations. But I suspect most areas will have some gasoline availability for at least my lifetime. Worst case, auto parts stores will carry 5 gallon jugs prefilled with stabilized gasoline. That would get a motorcycle around quite a bit.
For old-timers who hang onto their classic gasoline powered cars, they might need to plan trips around fueling stations, like natural gas drivers and EV drivers currently do. (EV is easier, you can always bring a 110V charger and wait a long time)
Thing is... there will likely always be gas stations catering to vintage vehicles and such. Bikers will have to pay premium for bio-ethanol or such meant for exotic and old cars. Luckily motorcycles are generally decent (not great) on gas mileage, so it might work out OK.
Electric motorcycles have been here for years, nobody is adopting them because nobody wants them. They are closer to electric bicycles than they are motorbikes.
When I jump on my motorcycle, it is about the experience - not anything practical. The startup ritual, the heat of the engine on a cool day, the symphony of sound and vibrations, the weight of what is under you, the absolute bliss you feel shifting through the curves of the road, the adrenaline of masterfully coordinating lean, angle of attack, rev matching, and counter steer.
There is something incredibly dull about an electric motorcycle comparatively. They are practical, and I will admit the linear acceleration is fun, but with so much sacrificed I could never see myself owning one as a recreational vehicle.
Plus electric motorcycles are loud, they make a high pitched sound. German motorcycle magazine "Motorrad" does a huge test with almost all motorcycles on the market in the Alps every year. They test a lot of things there, including noise levels.
The loudest motorcycle this year when in motion? An electric motorcycle.
This obviously not including aftermarket exhausts.
I wouldn't mind the industry being killed. But then again, I'm only on the receiving end of the noise, stink, bad drivers, people using infrastructure for pleasure etc. I bet if I liked driving for fun or using shared infrastructure for pleasure instead of need, I might like it too. But I don't.
This would destroy an already distressed and shrinking industry. EV motorcycles are comparatively very expensive and with limited range. None of the major manufacturers outside of Harley Davidson have commercialized an electric motorcycle yet. Furthermore, given the relative scarcity and lower miles traveled of motorcycles, banning ICE bikes would have limited environmental effect.
You have it backwards. Motorcycle riders are not going to swing over to electric at any time soon:
Bikers keep their rides for decades and
ICE motorcycles can last just as long and cars, if not longer, and
The price for entry on a new electric motorcycle is so far away from the price of ICE motorcycles it financially can not work for owners. And
There is little benefit to the environment to switch. Modern motorcycles have been sold with catalytic converters for decades, and they also get 40+ MPG.
> There is little benefit to the environment to switch. Modern motorcycles have been sold with catalytic converters for decades, and they also get 40+ MPG.
Previous emissions standards for motorcycles were much lower than cars. To the point where a bike getting 50mpg and carrying one person output more pollution than a sedan getting 25mpg and carrying an entire family.
This has been fixed with Euro4's introduction for the 2017 model year (which is why so many bikes were redesigned that year with huge exhausts.)
Around here, every cowboy with a V8 Challenger, Charger, Mustang, Camaro, or Pickup truck seems to have stripped off any semblance of "mufflers" because they want to "hear" their powerful V8 motor.
I live near a freeway entrance (and by "near" I mean at least 1/2 mile away), and out here, at night, when the freeways are more clear it's not too uncommon to have the silent darkness shattered by one of these cars opening up the throttle on the on ramp and racing to Vegas. Down the road is an interchange, and I've heard them start near me and just roar down the freeway, across the overpass and down the other freeway.
These cars are everywhere around here. Not to say the motorcycles aren't participants, but down here, the cars prevail.
This is a good point. I suspect that due to Harley’s older demographic the “loud pipes save lives” crowd will give way to a demographic that isn’t so interested in obnoxious noise levels. That probably won’t follow as much for car drivers where the noise isn’t as neatly segmented.
Is there an industry name for this specific phenomenon? Where goods are purchased/owned/carried solely for an intimidating appearance without any intent of using for their intended purpose?
Here's a 9 minute video that rebuts your 10 second unresearched, uninformed statement, with real data. Please watch it and become more informed about real ways we can improve motorcycles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zlYpy6QCM
(*) Edit: I was assuming that damage to the camera accumulates over time. If it happens on short time scales or as a single event as nicce's reply seems to suggest, this renders the notification idea moot ofcourse.