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That's a very questionable source. With such an overtly anti-Israel position, that's probably best taken with a large pinch of salt.


I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? I see nothing wrong with condemning the actions of the Israeli government, nor questioning why one of the prominent exports of the Israeli technology sector is surveillance.

I keep being contacted several times a year by established Israeli companies to add spyware into my projects. A couple of weeks ago I was offered $5000 as a sign up bonus by Bright Data (formerly Luminati), before that a growth specialist from Similarweb contacted me to gather intelligence about how to aquire Firefox for Android extensions, it was so slimy I've reported the latter to Mozilla employees.

I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.


> I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance?

No one is saying you should be pro-Israel in this instance. But an anti-anything stance should be reasonable and based on facts.

The fact that a country with a very large high tech sector is home to some questionable companies doesn't say much about the country as a whole.

>I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.

That's probably because you're unaware of the size of the Israeli high tech sector, which is completely disproportional to the country's size. From Wikipedia [0]:

> It [Israel] has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world after the United States, and the third-largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies after the U.S. and China. American companies such as Intel, Microsoft, and Apple built their first overseas research and development facilities in Israel, and other high-tech multi-national corporations, such as IBM, Google, HP, Cisco Systems, Facebook and Motorola have opened R&D centres in the country

Also relevant - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Wadi, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital_in_Israel

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel


As a EU citizen I don't criticise Israel for their weapon exports to much as that would be heavily hypocritical and it would also neglect the fact that EU officials actually want to implement said surveillance towards its citizens. That is not a fault of Israel, even if you want it to be.


Surely it is a fault of Israel – and also the EU? Just because our lot do it too, that doesn't stop it being a problem.


I would feel pretty stupid to criticise Israel when it comes out that my own government ordered their software. They supposedly didn't buy it, but it was on the table for negotiation.


Why? Were you party to that decision of your government?


I live in a democracy so I am partially responsible for anything my government does. Even and especially when it does something I don't like.


Yes if you voted for that government, otherwise no.


I'd argue you still have responsibility for your government's actions, regardless if you voted for them. Your responsibility as a citizen is to hold your government accountable, whether that's by voting, writing letters, talking, protesting, or (in the extreme case) civil disobedience or rebellion.

Unfortunately, the more important it is to hold your government to account, the harder it is. I, personally, don't have the strength to do that, for all I talk of it.


Yes oversight and influence on the government is responsibility of citizens. It does not mean that citizen is responsible for government's actions (as in I am member of a group of people to blame for their government's actions). These two responsibilities are two very different things.


If you feel stupid saying something that indirectly criticises your government, democracy shall soon fall.


No. I will criticize such decision but Israel is the wrong address in this case.


I didn't realize it was even that bad. Wow.


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Then why it is sold to oppressive regimes to spy on people and crush activists? No, it is done for profit and profit only and it is our duty to condemn lack of government control in that sector.


The answer is very simple: because these capabilities exist in Israel. Cybersecurity is rampant in the Israeli security apparatus, and spawns both offensive and defensive companies. NSO, Cellebrite and others are simply the flip side of companies like Checkpoint ($16bn), SentinelOne ($13bn) and Imperva and countless others.

As you get released from military duty as a 20-something developer with world class cybersecurity skills, you either go offensive or defensive (and we all know which one is more exciting and possibly better paying).

It's not surprising that an industry develops around skilled workforce. Happens all the time with companies around universities.


How is that a reason? This stuff is always justified by claiming it ensures the safety of people. Another justification has never existed for any of these.


>...when it's done in the interest of preventing another holocaust...

Spying on journalists critical of oppressive regimes, has absolutely nothing to do with "preventing another holocaust".

Arming tyrants with technology that enables them to crush dissent, by spying on their opposition and journalists is inexcusable.

That Israel wants to gather intelligence on hostile neighbors and prevent a new holocaust is legitimate.

But they shouldn't be immune to critique of their actions, by deflecting it with accusations of antisemitism and mentioning the holocaust.


How does selling spyware to authoritarian governments so that they can monitor activists and journalists “prevent another Holocaust”?


It keeps up a good working relationship with many countries who would otherwise be pressured to be hostile towards Israel. It's a diplomatic tool and it worked, see the new Abraham Accords.


Presumably, the real interest of the Israeli government, to the extent it's involved, is in monitoring the people they sold the software to.


I cannot imagine how someone could possibly be pro-Israel in the specific context of cybercrime and cyberwarfare. They are literally enabling regimes to blackmail and murder innocent, good people.

Also, please provide actual counterarguments.


Is it Israel, the state, that is doing that?


Yes. Every sale is approved by at least to ministers.


That's interesting. Do you have a source?


Sure, there is many: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20...

"The Israeli Defense Ministry must approve any license to a government that wants to buy it, according to previous NSO statements."


Should we take the sometimes-overtly, other-times-covertly pro-Israel position of much of the western media with a similar pinch of salt?


Opinions on Israel-Palestine seem to depend on generation.

Boomer journalists are pro-Israel and millennial journalists seem to be pro-Palestinian.

In the recent conflict NYT and WaPost were pro-Palestinian unlike the conflict in 2014 when they were neutral. In 2008/2009 they were openly pro-Israel.


Do you actually have counter-arguments to her findings here?


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Come on, you know that's a bullshit response.




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