This was how it was done in 2008 at least, when I bartended. Our bouncers were very, very good at identifying fake ID’s from almost any state. Sometimes when they confiscated them, the people would call the police and the police would look at the ID and hand it back (there’s not a lot of verification that can be done in the field). This is despite that the ID was, in fact, 100% fake - often our friends who were staff at other bars who were drinking as “regular” customers could confirm that they admitted in private it was fake afterwards.
Depending on the night we’d instruct the bouncers to be either more strict or less strict about checking ID’s. Everyone’s paycheck came from the tips so if it was too quiet then staff might not be able to pay rent. If it was too crazy, staff might get hurt.
Yes, technically serving minors is “strict liability” but the city police didn’t enforce it that way. If someone had a reasonable quality fake ID it would let us off the hook as far as the usual cops were concerned. Obviously it wouldn’t help us if the alcohol enforcement agency specifically showed up that night (very very rare) or if an underage drinker died in a drunk driving accident (never happened thank god).
Our bouncers were better than police at checking fake ID’s because:
1) they check many orders of magnitude more ID’s than cops ever do
2) part of our on boarding is to give the new bouncers a pile (200+) of fake ID’s to study which we had because we confiscated them. These included real ID’s which we confiscated because they were being used by not-the-owner of the ID. Then 1-3 months later they are tested against a different set of fake/real ID’s and needed to get some absurdly high % correct.
> These included real ID’s which we confiscated because they were being used by not-the-owner of the ID.
Wait, how does this work? You (as a private, non-government entity) can just confiscate an ID simply because you suspect the bearer isn't the person whose ID it is?
It doesn't. If you confiscate an ID document you are supposed to turn it over to law enforcement. You don't just get to build up a collection of other peoples stuff.
In many states possession of a fake ID is a crime, in addition to laws that cover use or intent to defraud.
But what if law enforcement is manufacturing fake ids themselves?
That's one of the many ways Trump loyalist Matt Gaetz's best buddy pedo-pimp Joel Greenberg got in trouble, making fake ids using information from surrendered driver's licenses.
>The report claims that some customers came to Greenberg’s office to surrender their driver’s license -- for instance, when they were receiving a replacement or renewal -- with the understanding that their old ID would be shredded.
>Instead, federal prosecutors allege that Greenberg used the information from at least two IDs, one from Florida and one from Puerto Rico, to create a fake driver’s license that would have his picture on it along with the victims’ names, date of birth and other pertinent information.
>“Joel Micah Greenberg used the surrendered drivers licenses that he had taken to cause fake driver licenses to be produced that had his photograph but the personal information of the victims whose driver licenses he had taken,” prosecutors wrote.
Presumably the bouncer says "I'm confiscating this, you can leave or we can get the cops to sort it out" and anyone using a fake ID who isn't dumb chooses the former.
Most of the bars I knew of had their own collections of fake ID’s. The good ones would use them for training purposes and the bad ones would find ways to sell them on the black market.
Holding onto them for training purposes may be illegal but generally we had very good relationships with the police, it wasn’t something that would have ever been enforced.
To dispel the notion that this was some “bootlicker” bar that got special treatment from police, it was the actually the most popular bar in a college town very much like Berkeley or Austin or Cambridge. When Obama won the election the bar was standing room only but the manager had the staff give a free shot to everyone in the bar.
You confiscated them? Deny entry, sure, it's your business and you have no obligation to risk liability (although as you say, there's little risk and you bend the rules when your revenues are weak).
Nut how does that give you confiscatory rights? How do you come to be exercising police powers and deciding that you can take other people's stuff on behalf of your local jurisdiction? Is this a legal requirement, and if so, how do you justify a) bending the rules as described and b) not surrendering the confiscated property to the civil authorities?
(I realize you were tending bar, not operating the business, yourself.)
> technically serving minors is “strict liability”
As an aside, strict liability in criminal law strikes me as unjust. There should always be a culpable mental state attached to a crime, even if it's just negligence so that people are only punished for behavior that the relevant legislative authority has deemed bad.
Depending on the night we’d instruct the bouncers to be either more strict or less strict about checking ID’s. Everyone’s paycheck came from the tips so if it was too quiet then staff might not be able to pay rent. If it was too crazy, staff might get hurt.
Yes, technically serving minors is “strict liability” but the city police didn’t enforce it that way. If someone had a reasonable quality fake ID it would let us off the hook as far as the usual cops were concerned. Obviously it wouldn’t help us if the alcohol enforcement agency specifically showed up that night (very very rare) or if an underage drinker died in a drunk driving accident (never happened thank god).
Our bouncers were better than police at checking fake ID’s because: 1) they check many orders of magnitude more ID’s than cops ever do 2) part of our on boarding is to give the new bouncers a pile (200+) of fake ID’s to study which we had because we confiscated them. These included real ID’s which we confiscated because they were being used by not-the-owner of the ID. Then 1-3 months later they are tested against a different set of fake/real ID’s and needed to get some absurdly high % correct.