Context: I'm the other co-founder of Typesense, mentioned in the article you linked.

Kishore and I have worked together on about 12 different side projects over the course of 13 years, and we've tried to adopt this mindset of consistency, persistence and long timeframes for each.

A few of these projects got good traction, but most of them didn't do well (at least revenue-wise). But here's the thing: working on all these projects consistently over the years, has also helped us learn about things like how to pick a market, how to validate our hypotheses, how to choose technologies when building products, how to maintain codebases over a decade, how to stay nimble, etc.

I would say that the sum total of our collective learnings through all these projects, have helped us significantly in our Typesense journey.

So I would say, showing up everyday is not a magic bullet to making a project successful. Instead, it's a magic bullet to continuous learning and building up a wealth of experience, that might just come in handy when you're working on your next project, which then increases your odds of success.

great point about showing up and doing the work means you will succeed, just not at your 1st or Nth idea or favorite idea; but as long as you are moving, you are making progress, and the success compounds (Im a bit putting words in your mouth, but I hope it stays in the spirit of what you said :) )

well said!

I've spent the last decade doing this. Building up my savings, draining them on an idea. I put in 40+ per week for a couple years on my last startup in the real estate space. Poached some top level VP's from the biggest firm in our country, but we ran through our capital too quickly due to too many pivots and licensing costs, I could only do no salary for so long, tough when your rent is $2.5k/mo.

Now I am back at my parents place far away from any city working on my own projects in the productivity space, a space I'm intimately familiar with. Theres a few tools I'm missing from my daily arsenal that I am building now.

I was too greedy in my goals and while we got funded and it was fun, ultimately it turned into nothing. I was of the "first to market / build a unicorn" mindset which as someone who doesn't come from money or connections, is pretty much impossible.

I am now trying to build a lifestyle company with a suite of tools in the productivity space, trying to hit $10k/mo MRR which doesn't scare me and I know is doable, as I've done it before (but unfortunately sold my stake to use that money on the venture I mentioned that failed). Bad move but hindsight is 20/20 I guess. I am focusing on building tools that solve my own problems.

So I'm 28 now, have under $1k in total net worth, but I am not going to stop until I am free from working a salaried job. 2 of my projects made money (sold them, dumb move, too bright-eyed and greedy), 11 of them didn't see a dime. I have never been more depressed in my life but I refuse to believe I can't hit at least a couple grand a month as I've done before, which is all I need to live my life. If only I realized this sooner. The reason I will keep doing this even if I don't succeed is because the regret of having not tried as hard as I can will haunt me every second of every day if I concede and hop on a salary. I don't want to spend the rest of my life on "what if?", and a life of sitting behind a glass wall consuming fine things does nothing for me. I don't want to be at the orchestra, or a restaurant, or a show. I want to be on stage, or be the chef, or be the conductor and for that you need time and money.

I know quite a few people with graveyard projects like this. Feel free to ask me anything, I'm an open book.

It's only a "failure" if you look at your net worth, right? It sounds like you have the experience, knowledge, and even resume of someone much older than 28. If you had instead spent ages 22-28 on a PhD, you'd still have no net worth, but people wouldn't see that as a failure.

That's a great point you're right, I'm still young. I'm not about net worth at all, I just want free time. If I'm working on my product 10 hours a day with a tight knit team and sustaining myself, that is success to me. Everything from there on is gravy.

On the contrary. If you do a PhD, you can get paid by the university and build some net worth. And people are impressed when you say you have a PhD, but do not care when you tell them about a graveyard project

im not so sure... IMHO if you spent 20+years in school and are up to your ears in debt and cant find a decent job... thats a big failure to me.

If they do manage to be their own boss then that’s a huge success. Worth the effort it it pays off.

> I was of the "first to market / build a unicorn" mindset

I'm not dissing that mindset at all, but it is essentially gambling. Over the decades, I've warmed to "the pioneers get all the arrows" mindset: that from a business perspective, it's better to be the second or third in a new area, because you can learn from the pioneer's mistakes. It's rare that the entity that invented a thing is the entity that makes the most profit from it.

It might be gambling I suppose, but it's actively encouraged by the VC companies who put a little seed money here and there. They want you to work yourself to death just in case you happen to get further investment. You may have no choice other than being first in a market - you don't always get a choice to be second or third when you see an opportunity.

Sounds like you have both the experience and talent necessary. I'm guessing it's only a matter of time until your next success.

Thank you! I sure hope so. I'm focusing on things I actually know. I knew this one guy who worked at a GM plant for two decades and started his own company manufacturing a part nobody would ever know exists, and now he's doing super well. So I'm taking a similar approach of building things that are useful to me and that I've had experience with on the job as it's all I know.

Exactly the same story here, but stretched out over a longer timeframe. Trying to build a lifestyle business (pet1.net) for a market I actually care about. I have a piece of software (atomicdroplet.com) that I've been selling for years and is still returning - albeit in very limited quantities. In short: this is a valid and non-suicidal way of making a living.

Keep in mind that tech is a tool for people to use to solve a problem. High tech that does not solve a problem is useless. My advice would be to focus on people first. What problem are people having that needs a solution? How can I solve the problem with the least of effort from the user's point of view? Customers are looking for products that make their lives easier/happier not the slightest bit harder.

I would go as far as getting a job in the space you want to focus on and look for problems there.

Apple always comes to mind. I can't think of any mind bending technology that they have invented but they've focused on the user's needs and have created a monster of a company by delivering products the customer wants to use.

Admirable. Keep pushing -- I admire the grit and grind. I believe in you.

Thank you I really appreciate it.

devils advocate... regret is a double edged sword. by sticking to one path that you have decided is the best, and turning your back to all others, you might ignore a great opportunity.

what is to say you cant work hard on something for someone else and be equally fulfilled?

all the most lucrative and fulfilling projects i have worked on, i was drafted into by others, not the other way around.

I find what I do enjoyable and I've had a lot of fun roles, but if I woke up with time and money on my hands I wouldn't be writing productivity software / web apps, I'd love to work on race related software but I have no math background. My main passions are piano and racing.

You're right I may miss a great opportunity and probably have, but landing a job that satisfies me is a much more accessible option than being able to dedicate all of my time to an idea at the drop of a hat. As I get older and my life gears more towards family I will have less time and steam to do what I'm doing now. I'm sort of stuck for the time anyways so there couldn't be a better time to keep taking on risk and sacrificing a couple opportunities. If nothing pans out then no worries, at least I tried and will happily go back to working and still probably try something when I'm older anyways.

There is also the added benefit that what I am doing now will directly benefit my future career, so even if I fail, not all is lost.

>what is to say you cant work hard on something for someone else and be equally fulfilled?

I can and I have, I've worked for a lot of great people. I'm just not dying to go back to the career route, I'd rather keep doing my own thing while I still can and take on a contract here and there.

>all the most lucrative and fulfilling projects i have worked on, i was drafted into by others, not the other way around.

Someone had to draft you though right? ;)

I would love to chat with you. Is there a way to contact you directly?

Give me your email and I'll reach out. Or msg me at @marcel.olsz on instagram.

Wrong IG name, its actually @marc.olsz

Maybe pick an industry? That way the fails add up to deep knowledge?

I poured 40-60 hours a week for a decade into a programming language that we open source and then flopped:

https://gosu-lang.github.io/

I was paid during that time, and the language is still heavily used internally, but it never got picked up by the outside world and Kotlin arriving on the scene killed any chance it had.

Was fun though.

Hmm, I have heard about it once or twice, as a minor “Java improvement” language like Ceylon.

It is, however, next to impossible to popularize a new programming language without dedicated evangelists (e.g. hardcore fans who spend a lot of time on programmers forums and social networks, arguing for the language).

yep, we were naive about that

on the other hand, it was early on in the JVM language boom and so things like JRuby and Clojure were growing in popularity, and we thought we might have a shot

at least it was fun

there were some interesting technical aspects to the language, such as the open type system[1], which lives on in spirit in Manifold[2].

[1] - https://guidewiredevelopment.wordpress.com/2010/11/18/gosus-...

[2] - http://manifold.systems/

I worked nearly full-time for about 2 years using my personal savings on a project management software for labs ("Labengine"). The big hook was that it let you run common bioinformatics apps on your data and it would automatically convert the input file to the expected format (there were lots of competing bioinformatics file formats at the time). I had a few of my old professors use it and "love" it but nobody ended up paying. It was a good lesson for me to not work on a project in isolation too long; release early release often is the motto now.

Edit: I stopped working on it after it bombed horrifically but kept burning through my savings and after a few other ideas ended up with a successful company (Shodan). I still learned a lot from failing with Labengine but I don't think working on it another few years would've made it successful.

You could have made the best software in the world, but as someone who now works as an in-house developer for a medical research university, there's almost no way for individual researchers to have significant influence on IT budgets. Sure, there are always a few rock stars who pull in huge grants and thus have some control over institutional spend, but in general the operations side of academia has little influence on what software is bought/used. Because of this, I've found there's quite a bit of (understandable) apathy among researchers with regards to anything related to IT - you have no control over it, it's a miserable necessity for your real job.

I work in the medical research space and we have LIMS (lab info management systems for people outside this niche) and am consistently amazed by the number of companies trying to get into our IT systems with lab management packages.

It's a very tough space to break into it and my recent experience is that the big EMS/EMR vendors are increasingly trying to offer "modules" to do LIMS and bioinformatics analysis pipelines.

Every now and again I start thinking about unsupervised learning projects in this space but look around and see just how little spend on analytics software there is for bioinformatics tools and settle down to focus on helping folks with our cluster and general reporting needs . . .

A book management software to track the books I have borrowed from the libraries in my city by automatically syncing with the library account via the online catalog of the library. It is the worst project ever

I am hardly getting any users. The people who go to the library, do not know about my software. The people who randomly find my software, do not go the library in my German city. I tried to add other libraries in other cities, but I cannot really do that without traveling to that city to get a library card there. The librarians refuse to talk about it, because it also warns people about the due dates, and they want people to miss the due dates to raise more late fees.

It took like 15h / week for 15 years. It takes a massive amount of time, because every time the library changes their webpage, I need to make an update to read the webpage. Especially since I can only see the change, when I have borrowed a book from them. When they are in other cities, I can spend entire weeks writing mails to the library to ask what they have changed, and not getting any answer

But there are still some people using it, otherwise I could have abandoned the project ten years ago. Now I cannot get rid of it

Multiple times. The perspective I've adopted is to look at what you learned in the process of each failure and how that improved your ability to do a better job on the next venture.

The truth is that many don't have the stomach for "sticking with it," doing whatever is necessary to keep going in the down phases (I highly recommend the poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling and see if it resonates).

You only truly "fail" when you quit. If you can make the necessary sacrifices to struggle through the dark days, your chances of succeeding increase greatly. I'd argue "survivorship bias" is just an excuse made by people who give up (I know that will sting some of you, but really marinate on it).

> You only truly "fail" when you quit. If you can make the necessary sacrifices to struggle through the dark days, your chances of succeeding increase greatly.

People give up when they realise that continuing a grind will require then to sacrifice more meaningful opportunities they have.

It's not always good to keep going. Sometimes you're throwing your life away.

> It's not always good to keep going. Sometimes you're throwing your life away.

That's a conditioned response. "Throwing your life away" is subjective.

Edit: https://nav.al/kapil <-- Worth listening to.

That's not a conditioned response! I also once believed the same as you, and I have friends that are endlessly bootstrapping and spending 60+ hours a week on their startups. They are renters, that don't have much money or a family or relationship, and they pump every freelancing job they do into their new ideas.

There's no law that says this will pay off. They might end up in their mid forties with very little wealth or they might end up very rich.

These aren't conditioned responses. Grit isn't enough here. You need to make the right choice for your self depending on your own dreams and the likelihood of attaining them.

My point is, if you decide you want a family, you will need to stop pouring all of your money into your projects, as it will be difficult for everybody if you're in one bedroom of a shared house...

It's not about laws or prescriptions. If you really want to do it, you'll figure it out.

Most people don't really want to do it, so they don't figure it out.

> You only truly "fail" when you quit

100% this - my project is in a highly competitive space (think hundreds of SaaS alternatives). The only ones that "fail" are the ones that come in copying competitors, expecting overnight success, and get upset when the money doesn't come pouring in.

> You only truly "fail" when you quit.

Or run out of time?

You don't have infinite time to keep trying things.

You have every second available up until your last breath.

I love the Kipling poem. A (lesser) companion for it is Wintle[1]

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1033193-if-you-think-you-ar...

Mine is https://pushback.io/.

It wasn't for 5 years more like 3 and wasn't consistently 15+ hours/week but definitely got up there when the passion was burning bright.

I've failed to implement a winning conversion plan (need to iterate my pricing, just never got around to it) and do marketing.

I've since moved on to another side project, but my passion certainly calls me back to Pushback from time to time.

This is really cool! It would make a lot of my ideas easier to build.

You are in my backlog of services to implement in my current project :)

Let me know if you need any help :)

It is how I work usually for the past 30+ years: I spread my time between 3-4 projects always and most are my own. I work on them for 3-6 years per project until something hooks some success or does nothing at all. Most fail, I had a few successful ones that made enough to live a nice life with a family and a few turned into serious companies. I suspect I will keep doing this until the end of my life: it is a lot of fun, failed or not. But success is obviously a better feeling.

Do you have a metric for when you give up on something? I'm 4 years into something that is a grind of epic proportions and wondering whether I should just shelve it and move on.

My usual metric is 3 years: only when I feel it has legs after that I continue a little bit. And by legs I mean that it has interested investors, breaks even or someone want to buy the company.

I have a project now that I started over 3 years ago and was completely dead until 2.5 years in about. An investor contacted me and said this is perfect timing (yeah, well, it was not 3 years ago... but it is how things go) and now he wants to jump full in: he started sending money as a token of trust.

Thanks dude. This sounds sensible to me.

My most successful project, by far, is a font. As a software engineer, I find that slightly amusing. None of my software projects got anywhere near its traction.

Except, maybe, an Emacs plugin made as a joke that adds IBM Selectric typewriter sounds to your text editor.

What is the font and its story?

It’s https://github.com/rbanffy/3270font. It’s a terminal font based on 70’s IBM terminals. It’s been used in art projects and on the cover of a magazine, and it’s offered packaged in the Debian and Ubuntu repos.

I spent 10 years creating failure after failure...learning many things a long the way...at 27 my co-founder and I started a SaaS that is now worth $100M...we made $475 our first month which was roughly 10 years ago

I spend 10 hours per week (since about 2017) working on side projects while employed full-time, the longest time I spent on a "loser" was roughly a year.

It wasn't a total failure though, as the learning I gained from each project compounded into a sort of "platform", and led me to build an MVP of https://OnlineOrNot.com in 7 days - profitable within the first couple of months, slowly but steadily growing MRR.

Spent a couple years working on a Patreon competitor that did some cool things with the Instagram and Twitter APIs to unlock premium content (you pay then auto-follow their secondary private account with premium content). API changes screwed me over. Should have bailed then, but I kept trying as an undifferentiated Patreon competitor for another year without much luck. Lesson: If you have a unique twist stop trying if that twist doesn't pan out. Also beware of social network APIs.

> Also beware of social network APIs.

Can't repeat this enough. Burned me multiple times.

I've spent 5-10 hours per week on https://onebag.travel/

So far I've made about $23.56.

It's more of a passion project because I like backpacks and I think encouraging people to pack less is important.

What is failure?

I personally am happy when I know I build something others treasure. It could be a handful of people, or many. Or it could be that I’m the only customer.

I can’t feasibly imagine working on something that long that _nobody_ cares about using, including me. I suppose it happens, but it really boggles my imagination.

Financially? A startup? Yes there’s absolutely survivorship bias. Supposedly 9/10 fail[1]. From mid stage startup I’ve seen/worked at there’s only the consistent theme of luck, access to capital, and persistence..

1 - says this if cited article, which seems low TBH https://fortune.com/2014/09/25/why-startups-fail-according-t...

Not over five years, nor as much time.

I created an app. It functioned fine, but never made any money. It was a lack of marketing. I spent time looking into marketing. I think I spent $10 on Facebook ads and went to a local college campus to put up posters with QR codes (I had quite a few hits for my one design, so I'm proud of that). My problem was targeting the wrong demographic and/or making the interface too bland. I should have targeted event planners instead of college kids. Even after releasing it for free it never really took off.

Between learning Android and actually getting it built, I created a social fitness app that never really took off after an initial influx of users:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrelashl...

I'm getting a second wind and might re-build it soon, as something that is more similar to tiktok. I may also need to put much more effort into advertising/marketing this time.

Maybe not 5+ years worth of development in many cases, but if you want examples, just open up Steam...

I took a year off and for fun, I spent 40 hours a week for 9 months on a website that used OCR and other packages for some games. It generated around $15/month in ad revenue, just enough to pay for my EC2 instance at the time. I kept it around but at some point the ad revenue I made dropped like a rock by 90% so I shut it down. It was fun nonetheless and I learned a lot, but it was not successful by any measure.

Hey, I've done this several times. In the 90's I spent over 10,000 hours on a 2d real time board game similar to Starcraft for the Amiga. In 96 I gave up on the possibility of an Amiga comeback and spent a couple of thousand to build a windows development system to post the game to. Well it turned out to be impossible as the M$ system is so defective. Once used to perfection it is difficult to program a turd. Linux was so young that I did not go there and built an ISP instead. In 2000 I spent a year producing a website in Rebol to analyze the nutritional qualities of foods, did not go anywhere. In 2014 I started the development of an events website so that anyone can post their events for free, got it working just in time for covid, 7 years, which oddly enough destroyed events. Have a look at GIDOUT.COM if you like it drop me a line.

I spent two years building an animation system for the Commodore 64, lots of assembly language, a sprite editor, and then someone came out with a product very similar to what I was building so I gave up. Some time later I realized that was a mistake, I would have just been competing instead of being first. For my next project I wrote a ray tracer for the Amiga (C-Light). Same thing happened, another company came out with something better before I'd even finished (the competition could display more colors simultaneously using an assembly trick I didn't understand) but I kept going, got to version 1.0, and got a distributor in the UK. The distributor ripped me off and vanished, collection agencies couldn't find him. I wasn't happy spending so much time on stuff that wasn't programming and it was costing me money so I gave it away for free. I spent at least five years on that.

Two things that have stopped me from starting new projects are patents and the fast evolution and demise of platforms. It is really difficult to know if any part of your idea is patented. You could put a lot of work into something only to have a troll take it all away. Platforms don't last any more (try running apps from your first iPhone on a current iPhone) and the continuous churn makes planning to work on something for years a very risky proposition. Everything changes, OS's, programming languages, API's, UI's, cloud vs local, networking, etc. If you're doing it all yourself it is not possible to keep up for very long. So I'd suggest carefully considering the longevity of what you plan to do. If it's going to take you 5 years to reach success you had better be sure your product is going to still be possible and relevant in 5 years. Otherwise I'd attempt shorter term projects. Supply chain attacks for example may be about to wipe out certain classes of software/service products if no one trusts them any more (though it's nice to have a scapegoat, maybe you could sell scapegoating as a service? :-)

There is no law that says every project must succeed.

Edison was supposed to have said something along the lines of "Keep on experimenting and do not hope for success" - keep doing/trying something but don't be disappointed if it doesn't work.

Failure is also success. We've learned what doesn't work.

Sure, I've had four projects that I spent years on and never went anywhere (at least in the way that was planned).

But that was certainly not wasted time and effort. Not only did it improve my skillset, but large amounts of the code written could be repurposed for other projects, giving a head start on them.

dashpc.com Dashboard Linux Automotive.

Basically, it was the first in-car touchscreen mp3, gps, fm radio, bluetooth(eventually), linux based caputer concept project. In 1999, it was a full computer retrofitted into the dashboard. By 2003, me and my team were doing conferences (Phreaknic), etc.

It was slashdotted a few times and a few mags did writeups about it.

Major auto manufacturers were regular visitors to the site (according to the logs). It was in a 2000 VW Jetta and it looked factory.

It still lives on in archives, but I failed to turn it into a business or maintainable project.

Open source collaboration was still “new” back then and it wasn’t easy to crowdsource capital or form business networks.

I was often told to contact my local Small Business Administration for leads (went nowhere).

I learned a lot, mostly what not to do, so value was created in some way.

Not several years, but I have developed side-projects which burned out after a few months. The longest was 2 years. I put a lot of effort into these projects, and some of them I don't even really have demos.

But, I learned a lot of skills from developing them. Skills which directly saved me time later on. For example, I learned a lot of concepts which were later covered in college classes, so I was able to study less and do homework faster.

When I look back, I don't see anything I could've done in that time to help my future self more (except maybe a successful project? Or maybe investing in Bitcoin? ... but realistically, nothing else) I don't regret those "failed" projects at all: in fact, I wish I could motivate myself to do more of them.

Yes, when I was a total programming noob and had no idea about business I had these projects.

Today I scale everything down so I can build it in a realistic time frame. A project I can't release after half a year is likely not going to be ever released. If it turns out to generate interest I instantly have 5 times the motivation to improve it, if it doesn't I at least haven't wasted to much time. If I start loosing interest before a release is near I just throw it away too, no point in forcing it

Edit:// sure I learned a lot with the going nowhere projects too. And the most important thing to learn was my personal way to build any projects faster in future

Stock analysis program. I scrape a stock site using Java and load the data to mySQL database in my computer. I have cloud functions to scape any new announcements and send mail to me. The site I had built is pretty much scalable meaning announcements are stored in Firebase and bootstrap 4 website logins are handled by Firebase as well and each user can track the stocks, get announcements related to their stocks and see all the financials and see the reports as well.

The roadblocks been, the source site from I scrape they change their site design often due to which I loose data or had to rework which some times takes couple of months. Data is sometimes disconnected like if the stock is part of a index the main page is updated with main items like revenue and net profit but the details pages are not updated and they might be updated within next 5days. So scraping takes lots of time in my home computer amd insertion takes time as well. Initally I was generating around 50 reports, after site upgrades due to change in data presented data, currently have around 35 reports. Since I am not seeing that many reports currently I am going to drop more reports.

Scraping part is the part I would like to move to cloud but currently I don't have enough time but 3yrs back I was working like a machine 9hrs office. 5-7hrs each day on this. Tech stack all of it I had to learn Scraping : Java, Python (introduced a year back); Analysis : Java & SQL queries . Currently trying to add pandas; Realtime scraping : NodeJs, Firebase in GCP; UI : initially generated reports using Java velocity, Js datagrids in bootstrap. Later developed a full fledged bootstrap 4 web application;.

Spent RIDICULOUS amount of time on this. Worse thing is when I started there wasnt much of apps did what I tried to do in report perspective. Now there are apps which does almost 50% of analysis what I do.

Now the thought process is do I want to proceed ? No. I am trying to continue the scraping part but sort of minimize all the UI stuff and when some analysis is required write a query to get the data and subscribe & pay the app which solves 50% of my work.

Due to this I didn't focus on any other areas in life which right now is lot frustrating. Sacrifices I used to be a marathon runner, not anymore. Used to workout regularly 5days a week in gym, not anymore. Used to have social life, not anymore.

Another interesting thing, it's a stock webapp which I was building, I was soo into the programming in bringing this up actually I didn't actually get time to review the reports. I did miss a lots of Market Ups....

This is mine https://appointmenthelper.net.

My dream sauce (SaaS ;)) was this application which I consistently worked about 2 hours every day for one year and when everything was ready, the guy refused to use it. Though I still keep it hosted even though no one uses it :-)

Is that your pricing? Or the guy you built it for?

That was my pricing. The guy was a dentist. He wasn't a technical person. He was a relative of my friend, when their relationship got sour he turned it down.

You can surely supplement your own quest at global level with business/tech consulting at local level? Wherever you live, draw a 50-100km radius circle and sell your tips, tricks, life experience to business people who are way less active than you? They buy them time, you monetise your “failures”?!

Yeah, my career.

dsf