Removing religion completely has been tried in a larger scale experiment in the Soviet Union and the results were very much worse than the most barbaric religions.
When arguing about religion one shouldn't forget that they have a number of good attributes as well.
Otherwise you are just fighting against a straw man and then it is no wonder why you win every single time : )
Besides:
> Just because we managed to declaw and tame one (values of Enlightenment supplanting values of Christianity)
This is putting the cart before the horse.
It wasn't enlightenment that ended blood revenge, brought herbs and fruits and medicine and and and to Europe.
It was monks.
Enlightenment grew out of the fertile soil of literacy and surplus and relative peace and quiet that this created, not the other way around.
> Removing religion completely has been tried in a larger scale experiment in the Soviet Union and the results were very much worse than the most barbaric religions.
What am I supposed to say here? "Good thing I'm not Stalin"? Just because he's against religion, too, does not mean I want to use his methods.
> When arguing about religion one shouldn't forget that they have a number of good attributes as well.
I've heard that often, but that argument isn't very good. When the $ANIMAL mauls the offspring, one does not reminisce about how well it plays fetch, this does not counter-weight or undo the damage.
It is entirely possible to have the good attributes (let's say social cohesion or introspective peace of mind) entirely divorced from the gods-and-religion business (let's say by joining the local ping-pong club or taking up a meditative practice). I posit there is no attribute that uniquely belongs to religion and cannot be had otherwise.
> [monks] ended blood revenge, brought herbs and fruits and medicine and and and to Europe.
That result is a function of smart and persuasive people, not a function of belief in and worship of Yahweh. Mentally substitute the monks for hypothetical missionaries adhering to Voltaire/Smith/Kant &c., we could imagine the result is similar, just without the gods-and-religion business.
> Enlightenment grew out of the fertile soil of literacy and surplus and relative peace and quiet that this created, not the other way around.
I did not say that this fertile soil grew out of Enlightenment. I said that values of Enlightenment supplanted values of Christianity.
> What am I supposed to say here? "Good thing I'm not Stalin"? Just because he's against religion, too, does not mean I want to use his methods.
Maybe you should then extend the same courtesy to us who have religions too then? After all most of us aren't Spanish inquisitors.
> Mentally substitute the monks for hypothetical missionaries adhering to Voltaire/Smith/Kant &c., we could imagine the result is similar, just without the gods-and-religion business.
Yeah and if cats were dogs they would bark.
Mentally substitute Nelson Mandela with Hitler and South Africa wouldn't have a Nobel prize winner.
> I didn't say
No, but you said:
> Just because we managed to declaw and tame one (values of Enlightenment supplanting values of Christianity)
I'm pointing out that the peace
came with Christianity.
Removing religion completely has been tried in a larger scale experiment in the Soviet Union and the results were very much worse than the most barbaric religions.
When arguing about religion one shouldn't forget that they have a number of good attributes as well.
Otherwise you are just fighting against a straw man and then it is no wonder why you win every single time : )
Besides:
> Just because we managed to declaw and tame one (values of Enlightenment supplanting values of Christianity)
This is putting the cart before the horse.
It wasn't enlightenment that ended blood revenge, brought herbs and fruits and medicine and and and to Europe.
It was monks.
Enlightenment grew out of the fertile soil of literacy and surplus and relative peace and quiet that this created, not the other way around.