> I have known gay men who have never had sex with women, but they are very much the exception to the rule.
This isn’t at all the case these days. And anyway, it’s also quite common for straight men to have had gay experiences.
Gay sexuality remains a puzzle from a narrow evolutionary point of view. None of the theories that have been proposed is really very plausible. As a gay man it is honestly quite amusing to see all of the bizarre alleged ‘explanations’ that people come up with. Especially since these always seem to be implicitly focused on male homosexuality - not because it’s any more in need of an explanation than any other kind of sexual behavior, but because it freaks people out.
All research in this area seems to pose the basic question as follows: “Well obviously straight people exist, but what could possibly be the explanation for all these aberrant cases?”. It fails to recognize that procreation is just one function of sex. It’s like being surprised that people use their mouths for kissing as well as for eating and talking.
A equally big puzzle is all the non-procreative sex that straight people have. That one doesn't get much research attention though, because straight people aren't considered to be an aberrant case.
> And anyway, it’s also quite common for straight men to have had gay experiences. ... A equally big puzzle is all the non-procreative sex that straight people have. That one doesn't get much research attention though, because straight people aren't considered to be an aberrant case.
I mentioned this in my previous comment: "Most sex among humans (and hominins in general) doesn't produce offspring, ... That's fine. Sex isn't a limited commodity. Sex is abundant."
I think this aspect of human sexuality does get a lot of attention in research; I mean, it's absolutely central to human reproductive behavior. Concealed ovulation, menstruation, extraordinarily high male parental investment for a mammal, extended female sexuality, female copulatory vocalization combined with monogamy, monogamy combined with substantial sexual dimorphism: human sexuality is weird, and every aspect of that sexual weirdness is profoundly connected to non-procreative sex. I mean, we're weird in lots of ways, but sexually speaking, we're total freaks. We're so strange we're practically birds. Except for the sexual dimorphism thing. Even mallards aren't that weird.
And it's wonderful! But very puzzling.
> It fails to recognize that procreation is just one function of sex. It’s like being surprised that people use their mouths for kissing as well as for eating and talking.
The puzzle is not that some organisms engage in non-procreative sex, though; that's a lot more common than bizarre phenomena like mammalian monogamy or concealed ovulation. It's that some organisms, especially males, voluntarily refrain from procreation. There aren't a lot of organisms where that happens: sheep are one example. From an evolutionary point of view, it's a real challenge to explain how instincts for such behavior could be conserved.
The whole naturalistic fallacy you allude to, along with all the Catholic peccatam contra naturam nonsense, definitely contributes to the confusion.
> male homosexuality - not because it’s any more in need of an explanation than any other kind of sexual behavior
It is, though. Female bedbugs, like female organisms of many species, can reproduce without ever voluntarily copulating. (Bedbug penises are the stuff of nightmares.) Even in a species where copulation is 100% voluntary, female homosexuality has to reach a pretty high level before it starts to diminish ω, especially in a high-parental-investment species; you could imagine an elephant species where cows frequently mount other cows and perform oral sex on them* every day, but only have sex with bulls three times per estrus, and only go into estrus every five years. So in every five-year interbirth interval, cows of our hypothetical elephant species would have sex with other cows some 1500 times and bulls three times. The females of this hypothetical species would be 99.8% homosexual. But they'd have just as many offspring as cow elephants of actually existing elephant species.
More to the point, in this hypothetical elephant species, a less-lesbian mutation that caused a cow to copulate with bulls ten times per estrus instead of three times would increase her number of offspring only very marginally, if at all: in the cases where the first three copulations failed to produce offspring, she'd save herself an estrus.
By contrast, a 99.8% homosexual bull elephant would have... a lot less offspring than a regular bull elephant, as long as there's an occasional Casanova bull running around engaging in extra-pair copulation. Not 99.8% less offspring, because there aren't that many cow elephants around (there's no possibility of a Genghis Khan elephant), and elephants practice mate guarding. But a lot less. Maybe 50% less. And being even a little more heterosexual would increase his ω a lot.
So, aside from the knuckle-dragging Victorian factor, there are also totally legitimate ev-bio reasons that exclusive male homosexuality is surprising and challenges naive ev-psych theories more than exclusive female homosexuality.
> None of the theories that have been proposed is really very plausible.
Agreed.
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* Lesbian elephant trunk sex is totally a thing in real life, just not as prevalent as in this scenario.
The obvious conclusion to draw from all this is that complex human feelings and behaviors can’t in general be given reductive evolutionary explanations. There are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Evolutionary theory has contributed approximately zip to our understanding of human sexuality. But it sure has contributed many volumes to the literature on it. Sadly, much of the allegedly scientific literature on homosexuality just rewords Catholic doctrine on the subject in the language of pop evolutionary psychology.
> The obvious conclusion to draw from all this is that complex human feelings and behaviors can’t in general be given reductive evolutionary explanations.
Agreed.
> There are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Yup. I'm a lot more confident that gay people exist than that ghosts exist, though :)
> Gay people are pretty used by now to being told that we don’t “fit in” to some overarching theory of nature that’s currently orthodox.
Agreed. It's tiresome.
> Evolutionary theory has contributed approximately zip to our understanding of human sexuality.
That's a point where I disagree, though I think most of what it's contributed is negative: debunking all kinds of wishful thinking on the part of neo-Victorians and Catholics.
> By all means continue to be puzzled that reproduction doesn’t explain every aspect of human behavior.
I don't plan to start being puzzled about that. Maybe you intended to post your comment on a different thread?
If reproduction doesn’t explain every aspect of human behavior then what exactly is supposed to be the puzzle posed by homosexuality? It is one trait that decreases a man’s chance of reproducing, along with many others that are widely attested throughout recorded history and given far less attention. To be puzzled by it you literally have to be puzzled that not every man is a optimal baby making machine.
Not to misinterpret kragen's excellent points or assign interpretations, but I believe the only surprise you find in this thread is from a biology standpoint. The practice or expressed preference of not seeking to be an "optimal baby making machine" is somewhat not the point in a repr-evo biology discussion, but the phenomenon is curious and intriguing to anyone with a passing interest in the sciences of life.
No judgement or opinion emitted, and especially not in matters of social sciences.
Yes I know. I’m asking what is puzzling about it from a biological point of view. As I said, men can have all kinds of traits that reduce their chances of reproduction. It is not at all uncommon for a man to have one or more of these.
Which ones are you thinking of? Are they traits we have in common with rams? Things like taking vows of celibacy are more easily explained as culturally created behavior, among other things because rams and mice don't do it and nobody is born a monk.
This isn’t at all the case these days. And anyway, it’s also quite common for straight men to have had gay experiences.
Gay sexuality remains a puzzle from a narrow evolutionary point of view. None of the theories that have been proposed is really very plausible. As a gay man it is honestly quite amusing to see all of the bizarre alleged ‘explanations’ that people come up with. Especially since these always seem to be implicitly focused on male homosexuality - not because it’s any more in need of an explanation than any other kind of sexual behavior, but because it freaks people out.
All research in this area seems to pose the basic question as follows: “Well obviously straight people exist, but what could possibly be the explanation for all these aberrant cases?”. It fails to recognize that procreation is just one function of sex. It’s like being surprised that people use their mouths for kissing as well as for eating and talking.
A equally big puzzle is all the non-procreative sex that straight people have. That one doesn't get much research attention though, because straight people aren't considered to be an aberrant case.