> incels were not created created because women have agency in who they date
Did you not look at the evidence? Online dating is already the primary means of forming relationships. There's data showing women reject over 80% of men they see on dating apps. They actively choose to compete over the other 20%. They'd rather share a top 20% man than settle with a bottom 80% man.
How is this supposed to not create a class of universally rejected men?
> Bring solutions to the table if you think there is a problem.
Why bother? I doubt you'd consider any real solution since they would naturally result in disadvantages for women in favor of men and would therefore be "toxic nonsense".
Let me use an analogy. As a manager I help my folks get promoted all the time. The folks who struggle the most are the ones who think about promotion as a set of checkbox items they have to cross off. The ones who are easily promoted are the ones who are looking less at the criteria and more at how they can be introspective and develop themselves.
Framing finding a relationship in a "I'll just check these checkboxes and then I will immediately get a relationship" fundamentally misunderstands that we aren't generally selecting partners for one trait. No one is working from a checklist when they select their partners, so why set yourself up to fail by imagining they are.
Develop a growth mindset, focus on building your skills, build rich and fulfilling friendships. Ask for feedback and accept it. Build others up. People will want to be around you.
> Did you not look at the evidence?
I did a cursory Google search, which suggested online dating results in roughly the same outcomes as in person dating.
> How is this supposed to not create a class of universally rejected men?
If you are suggesting that 80% of men will face universal rejection, I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. It's quite frankly trivially falsifiable.
> Why bother?
Because you've made vague gestures that somehow society is to blame, but won't say how you'd fix it. Either that means you aren't sure, which undermines the idea that society is actually to blame, or your ideas are so repugnant that you are afraid to show them the light of day. You do not get to claim a moral victory by claiming to be a victim and then failing to engage with even the lightest questioning of your narrative.
It follows that if you fail to meet these criteria you are considered unattractive.
> Develop a growth mindset, focus on building your skills, build rich and fulfilling friendships. Ask for feedback and accept it. Build others up. People will want to be around you.
This assumes attractiveness is caused by factors that are within our control. This doesn't seem to be the case. Height is a very simple and uncontroversial example. How is a "growth mindset" supposed to help the incel who gets rejected by women on dating apps because he's shorter than them?
This isn't some insane idea either. Women I've dated have complained about short men on dating apps to my face. They want those men to reject themselves so as to spare them from even acknowledging their existence.
> If you are suggesting that 80% of men will face universal rejection, I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. It's quite frankly trivially falsifiable.
I said the data shows women reject about 80% of men they see on dating apps. The set of rejected men is different for every woman. Universally rejected men (incels) are the insersection of these sets, naturally it is a smaller set than 80% of men.
The fact is there's massive inequality in dating. Like all inequalities, it'll probably get worse over time.
> Because you've made vague gestures that somehow society is to blame, but won't say how you'd fix it.
Not providing a fix doesn't invalidate my point.
> Either that means you aren't sure, which undermines the idea that society is actually to blame, or your ideas are so repugnant that you are afraid to show them the light of day.
Yeah, I just encountered this subject. The most obvious solution is to go back to enforced monogamy. Nothing repugnant about that but obviously female agency will be impacted. You don't seem to be open to any ideas that don't maximize female agency.
> You do not get to claim a moral victory by claiming to be a victim and then failing to engage with even the lightest questioning of your narrative.
No, you don't get to dismiss people's arguments as "toxic" and then demand they "engage" with your questioning.
> most obvious solution is to go back to enforced monogamy. Nothing repugnant about that...
And there it is. Yes, that stance is awful. Going back implies removing the right of women to choose who they partner with. Enforced monogamy removes the ability of folks to choose how many partners they have. And who gets to define 'monogamy' and who does the enforcement?
It also completely ignores the poly folks out there, or the folks who are not interested in long term relationships.
It's at best, a narrow and puritanical view of human sexuality.
And having a dating scene with an 80/20 distribution isn't? Monogamy seems like the only way to give everyone chance.
So I guess this comes down to whether you think everyone should have a fair chance to find a partner. Do you? And if so how would you achieve that?
> Going back implies removing the right of women to choose who they partner with.
Nope, they can still choose whoever they want. The point is to get the top 20% of men committed and off the dating pool as quickly as possible.
> Enforced monogamy removes the ability of folks to choose how many partners they have.
Yes? That's the point.
> And who gets to define 'monogamy'
... The dictionary.
> who does the enforcement?
I don't know, society?
> It's at best, a narrow and puritanical view of human sexuality.
Probably. I did say it was the most obvious. Do you have a better idea? Because this "just be better" stuff doesn't seem to be working.
Assuming people even want to help these incels to begin with. Other posts I've seen just want to pacify them so they don't become violent or something.
How about actually having a likable personality, which easily tops all other qualities? Dating apps do prioritize looks, and especially during COVID I believe it makes finding a partner harder. But in-person the initial “not-as-good-looks” can very easily be overcome if one is kind, honest, funny, etc.
> How about actually having a likable personality, which easily tops all other qualities?
Does it really top all other qualities? Doesn't seem to be the case. There's evidence showing personality is only considered after a minimum threshold of physical attractiveness is met.
And a huge percent of attractivity is nurture rarher than nature.
You can work out and get into shape, you can have good hygiene, you can dress nicely, etc. Just because someone is luckier and doesn’t really have to pay attention to what he/she eats to get a good figure doesn’t mean that others can’t achieve that, although with more work.
Also, the face itself is much more important for men than women.
I don't buy that. If we use the example of height alone, the vast majority of women would not date a man shorter than them regardless of whether the man has a "likable personality". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbG05ePWRQE
Fortunately women’s height shows a normal distribution, as well as it’s not like many 150 cm women would date a guy well above 2m.
(Sorry, don’t know freedom units)
"How about actually having a likable personality, which easily tops all other qualities?"
So do you now agree this statement is obviously false?
Height is just one of the first filters women use, and often the requirement is more strict than just "taller than me". You also have to pass other commons filters. Another very important filter for most women is race, and we're just getting started.
It's a general well known trend. You can make a fake account and test it in a few minutes.
Just like in many other animals, female choosy selection is the limiting factor, and the males either prove themselves or might as well die. That's where all this lack of empathy is rooted.
> You clearly would not stick up for short or ethnic men the way you do for women
Based on what?
> who are already heavily privileged
Depends on country. I’m not supportive of some new-found feminist movements, but all for it in some Muslim secular countries where women are not allowed to drive and are all around thought of as the property of their husband.
> I've seen women with your left wing mentality talk about women's rights and BLM and then, in the next sentence, move on to making fun of Indian men and talking about how they would never date them
That’s called a hypocrite. And I don’t see how generalizing an entire gender based on n=1 is any different than your example where you rightfully was offended by the making fun of Indian men. You do the same shit for half of all people.
> Most of society does share this hateful mindset.
And a significant percentage of men also share the mindset that women are inferior/object, or other misogynistic shit. Neither should happen.
> You responded by saying "the sky is blue", do you believe some races are objectively less attractive than others?
Heh?
In another thread I did write that men usually don’t want to have relationship with women of another race (and vice versa). But it is all around true, most cultures look down on interracial relationships — which is said.
The fact that you blamed "personality" for all problems.
> Depends on country.
Well I'm talking about the West, the US in particular.
> generalizing an entire gender based on n=1
It's not n=1, the reason people do it is because it is generally considered socially acceptable.
> And a significant percentage of men also share the mindset that women are inferior/object, or other misogynistic shit. Neither should happen.
You really don't realize how many men are not misogynistic, and how much more acceptable it is to make fun of men for their insecurities (like height).
> Heh? In another thread I did write that men usually don’t want to have relationship with women of another race (and vice versa). But it is all around true, most cultures look down on interracial relationships — which is said.
This is not true, men are more open in general, and women, especially white women, have the strongest bias. Women will even refuse to date ethnic men they find attractive. There are lots of studies on this although I'd have to dig them up. Also why doesn't this affect white men as much if it's just about opposition to interracial relationships? They are preferred by many ethnic women.
> The fact that you blamed "personality" for all problems.
Which is all around the most important; the catch is that one can't really get to it over a picture. And unfortunately even in real life (especially now with COVID) it makes first moves harder. But there are many places where one can get to know others - work place, school/college. There people can show their true personality. And many part of one's appearance can be changed.
> It's not n=1, the reason people do it is because it is generally considered socially acceptable.
I'm fairly sure each culture have stereotypes of other cultures; but it is getting better. I'm sorry if you have been the target of such negative stereotypes, it's absolutely not okay, but one should not hold grudges against unknown individuals of that society, because it is the same shit.
> You really don't realize how many men are not misogynistic, and how much more acceptable it is to make fun of men for their insecurities (like height).
I said a significant percentage of men are misogynistic. And it is never acceptable to make fun of someone's insecurities - if it happens to you, quit those circles, they are toxic people. But I doubt non-popular high school girls have it better. My point is that the problem is bullies, not another group who is often hurt.
> This is not true, men are more open in general, and women, especially white women, have the strongest bias. Women will even refuse to date ethnic men they find attractive.
Well, how about blaming society instead of the individual? Behind every such woman there is a father and mother who repeatedly told her how bad these "other" people are and to never bring one home, etc. Or even just implicitly meaning that. It takes time to "heal" a society and interracial couples are much more acceptable than even just a decade age.
The science simply doesn't back this up. And nowadays, even without covid, most people meet online where the simplest filters (race, height, face) are the most important. Imagine if men used a "breast size" filter, do you see why this is so disturbing?
> I'm fairly sure each culture have stereotypes of other cultures; but it is getting better. I'm sorry if you have been the target of such negative stereotypes, it's absolutely not okay, but one should not hold grudges against unknown individuals of that society, because it is the same shit.
There is no stereotype like this about white men, they are considered extremely attractive.
> I said a significant percentage of men are misogynistic.
This has not been my experience in general, most men I meet in tech and in the US share your types of beliefs.
> Well, how about blaming society instead of the individual? Behind every such woman there is a father and mother who repeatedly told her how bad these "other" people are and to never bring one home, etc. Or even just implicitly meaning that. It takes time to "heal" a society and interracial couples are much more acceptable than even just a decade age.
Even asian women show these biases for only dating white men. A lot of these women are very left-wing, it is not because of their fathers and mothers. They should take responsibility.
> They do? Like what do you think they swipe left/right based on? It is another very apparent feature..
No it would be heavily criticized to filter based on that, and it often is not that apparent. Men would not be able to ask for it even if they wanted to know. There is also no weight option, which men would like. All of this is because women control the market.
> Where? Do you think a Muslim women would prefer a white men over another Muslim? An Indian women (living in India) a white one over another Indian?
In the US, and yeah all women pretty much prefer white men. White men are heavily preferred in india.
> Maybe you just don't consider those things misogynistic, because frankly you do sound like one..
Because you consider me pointing out how racist/sexist women can be as misogynistic. It's an easy way to avoid the issues I bring up.
> I doubt asian women date white men over other asian ones, but stereotypically asian people can be very racist, except for white people, I agree with you on that.
Asian women raised in the US often strongly prefer white men, you rarely see it the other way around.
> For daring to prefer someone with the same skin color as themselves?
For the societal biases and helping to fix them. You're clearly a complete racist, that is practically the definition of racism. Why would you word it like that unless your a psychopath? Also it's not about skin color, it's about race. Again I even mentioned how women admit to finding ethnic men attractive but still won't date them. Women will even ask for ethnic background for ambiguous looking people and unmatch based on that. This is not comparable to sexual orientation, it's very much about societal issues and you know it. You are disgusting. You fight so much for women's issues but don't care at all about fixing problems like these.
> All of this is because women control the market.
Yeah, I'm sure every dating apps' CEO and other important positions are held by women...
> In the US
There you are, at least read what I was writing. You know there are other countries than one that is predominantly white from its inception?
> Because you consider me pointing out how racist/sexist women can be as misogynistic
No. There is a difference between being racist and not being attracted to someone from another race. And your conclusion of some women being racist is in no way in disagreement with what I say. But you've been saying that all women are racist, which is not true.
> Asian women raised in the US
raised in the US, maybe that has to do something with it??
> Again I even mentioned how women admit to finding ethnic men attractive but still won't date them
SOME. They are racist, or has parents that would disown them if they would have an interracial relationship, or other reasons.
And thank you for your kind remarks, that's a great way to emphasize your points...
EDIT: I do apologize if I upset you, it was not my intention at all. I just feel that in your reasoning you are thinking of an object instead of another human being. Unfortunately, even if the other's choice is due to some evil reason, like blatant racism, it is only their choice who they want to date with and you can't do anything at all with it at this level. But as I noted earlier: more and more interracial couples, even at first surface-level things like more attention to diverse casts in movies will slowly make it more acceptable at a societal level. Of course there will always be racist people, but exactly the societal-pressure-free choice of women will let go of the old stigmas.
Which is?
> incels were not created created because women have agency in who they date
Did you not look at the evidence? Online dating is already the primary means of forming relationships. There's data showing women reject over 80% of men they see on dating apps. They actively choose to compete over the other 20%. They'd rather share a top 20% man than settle with a bottom 80% man.
How is this supposed to not create a class of universally rejected men?
> Bring solutions to the table if you think there is a problem.
Why bother? I doubt you'd consider any real solution since they would naturally result in disadvantages for women in favor of men and would therefore be "toxic nonsense".