> It's a fucking war there, people are sent to war to kill and to get killed.
For me it is "here". The fact that for you it is "there" makes me think that you should talk more to actual people that are living in the countries you mentioned in previous post instead of lecturing them over internet with copy/paste of Russian propaganda "news" pieces.
Besides, it might be a novel concept for you, but here we have an actual elections. People can always vote for some Russian puppet (Medvedchuk, for example) and "join" Russia. I guess majority thinks that "fucking war" is better alternative in this situation.
> GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year.
Your point being? It is not like Ukraine was some rich local Eastern European Switzerland until sneaky CIA/Soros sponsored NGOs "destabilized" it.
> Your software developer friends are just outliers there.
I envy your tenacity fighting against ill-intentioned HNers.
I was born in one of those countries mentioned by @levosmetalo above and the common running joke was too "People in internet say revolution is sponsored by CIA, but I'm still waiting for my paycheck!" and that was coming from people that were _truly_ putting themselves out there.
Anyway, I don't care (sadly) for having an identity on HN anymore, several times I created a user in good faith only to be downvoted to oblivion discussing these matters. Yes, I know, I shouldn't be commenting on those threads. I can't help it, I grew up in a place awfully destroyed by communist.
There is no independent TV in Russian Federation for 20 years. State controlled media spreads all possible lies. Everything to distract from internal problems. Right now state breaks down peaceful protests, 1600 detained, each is fined by about $200, that's almost half of the average wage ($500). Opposition leader in jail by fabricated claim, requires medical help, poisoned previous year. Income is falling, retirement age increased. State leaders are corrupt beyond possible.
> Sure, and I know some people for whom it was also "here" and now it's "there" because they can't live any more in their hometown because of war.
I also hope that Russia withdraws their military and financial support for terrorists who prevent your friend from going home. However, it seems Russia wants further confrontation and is now amassing significant military presence in that region, so we won't have much choice in that matter.
> For you guys "here" in Kiev Donbas is also "there".
Not really. For most of the people in other parts of Ukraine who are under constant risk of being conscripted the Donbas is very much "here".
> And that's why Ukraine will never be a prosperous country, as long as you consider a "fucking war" a better alternative to anything.
Commendable sentiment. I would also prefer a peaceful world for all of us.
> The majority has been brainwashed by "western" propaganda to hate everything Russian
I'm a Russian speaker with some Russian ancestry. Please tell me more how I "hate everything Russian".
> to the point it would rather have "fucking war" against their ex citizen in Donbas and Crimea instead of letting them choose where and how they want to live.
There is no Iron Curtain anymore. People who want to live in any other country (including Russia) are obviously free to do so.
> Those guys in Donbas and Crimea also had elections and referendums, not worse than those in Ukraine
They are not recognized intentionally and and were conducted by occupying military personnel. Overall, we both know that "our town votes to join another country" is not how it works anywhere. Just ask Chechen people how it went for them, if you would like to know how Russia deals with such issues.
> they decided they don't want to live with someone who is denying them basic human rights based on the wrong ethnicity
This is just old Russian propaganda trope "Bloodthirsty Ukrainian Nazis want to genocide Russian-speaking people". Overall, I never felt that my rights were denied to me due to language of choice or my obviously Russian surname.
> Would you rather kill them all than let them go?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
> And since you want to kill all the ethnic Russians why are you surprised that Russia won't let you do it?
So you started your message with incredibly pacifist statement "will never be a prosperous country, as long as you consider a "fucking war" a better alternative to anything" and end it with approving of Russian aggression under flimsy pretext that they are preventing some imagined genocide of ethnic Russians? I sense double standards here.
> NATO is happy to have war against Russia or Russian allies to the last Ukrainian solder and civilian.
This is factually incorrect. Obama repeatedly denied lethal weapon sales to Ukraine during active phase of the conflict [1]. The main objective for European politicians also seems to be some fake outrage about Russia's actions to put a show for their electorate while continuing business as usual behind closed doors [2]. If anything, "NATO" would happily give whole Ukrainian territory to Russia in order to end costly sanctions, if they could somehow manage to do so without war, refugees and overall humanitarian disaster (with obvious exception of Poland and Baltic states who are fully aware that they could be next).
Ukraine is a big country. When you look at the part close to Russia, yes, that is a warzone. When you look at places like Lviv... warzone??? Yeah right, you can just travel there buddy.
Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU.
> Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU.
That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played.
ATO expansion is undesirable to Russia and counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. Russia has also been testing Western responses to its salami incursions beginning with Abkhazia and now Ukraine. The most it has gotten so far are sanctions (probably better than a full scale war at this point, but longer term this tactic may not succeed as Russia keeps chewing away). American meddling and financing of Euromaidan to topple Yanukovych and shake up Ukrainian politics is what opened the door to Russian pretexts to invade a country whose borders are not only an unstable Soviet construct (culturally speaking), but which plays an important territorial role in Russian security (control of Crimea allows control of the Sea of Azoz).
You can probably add NordStream II to the mix, but that's more about gaining the upper hand over Central Europe in cooperation with Germany, hence the farce of EU unity, and in this case, where energy security and its geopolitical consequences are concerned.
Thus the need for a Central European bloc that can withstand the grind of American/Western and Russian cultural and geopolitical tectonics. The Three Seas Initiative is ostensibly supposed to accomplish this, exploiting American backing, at least in the beginning. Belarus had historically been oriented toward this center of gravity until the 19th century. The Belarusian opposition certainly leans in the historical direction and the only other alternative is Russian vassalage. This Central European bloc incidentally would function like a buffer that would also serve the security interests of Europe in general.
> Ukraine democratically decides to prefer EU over Russia, maybe all parties need to live with that.
Russia has been opposing the expansion of NATO for decades, and Ukrainian politicians at different moments were aiming to join NATO (rather than signing memorandums not to join NATO). I suppose, we Ukrainians can be upset at how unfair it is that our sovereignty is not respected, but that won't earn us any more agency. Russians are the ones with the nukes, overwhelmingly stronger military and with opinions on the matter, so maybe we've got to be smarter about how we navigate through challenges ahead of us.
> That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played.
I see how profound is your sophisticated understanding of high art of geopolitics...
> counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO.
Do you see Russia keeping to any agreement it had with NATO now?
What I see is politicians of NATO member countries running around Putin like headless chicken, trying to decipher some "tough geopolitical riddle," while the later laughs, and keeps sending them his KGB agents.
I don’t know what to make of this comment; it’s certainly wrong by a wide margin. The entire country’s GDP cannot be less than I take home per paycheck. I thought maybe it was per-capita GDP, but the 2021 IMF estimate is $13k—almost 4x your figure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...
That's value of GDP (nominal) per capita, year 2019. 2021 estimate is $3,984 [1]. Not much, yes, but that's in post USSR country that's fighting eighth year Russia agression.
And i'm pretty sure that Donbas (separatist region) is receiving weapons not from the west. So in Ukrainian scenario i'm nor sure who has destabilised that region. By the way if you look at Ukrainian GDP over time it shows growth over past years.
Your software developer friends are just outliers there.