Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

You are confusing nucleon (neutron or proton) with nuclide or nucleus. You still get extra energy from fusing a nucleon with nickel-62



No, I'm not. Nuclei fuse. A proton is just a hydrogen-1 nucleus, and neutron capture isn't fusion.


OK, Which weighs more? A nickel-62 nucleus and a proton, or a copper-63 nucleus?


You don't get a copper-63 nucleus if you hit a nickel-62 nucleus with a proton, you get a copper-61 nucleus and two neutrons in the reaction:

62Ni(p,2n)61Cu

Copper-63 has spin of 3/2 while nickel-62 has a spin of 0, so you can't simply add a proton (whose spin is 1/2), you need at least 3 fermions to participate in the reaction.

The Copper-61 and two neutrons of course have a higher mass than the Nickel-62 and the proton.


Also note that this closely corresponds to what we see: A star would be expected to burn by fusing hydrogen into heavier nuclei, which shed helium as alpha particles once they get too heavy, eventually ending up with mostly lead and helium. Which either undergoes a fission event which fissions the heavy metals into iron, or stays the way it is, a white dwarf. No need for "exotic" physics. And it also explains the persistent failure of fusion energy, as it tries to build upon nonexistent mechanisms made up to confuse people trying to build nuclear weapons.


Okay, a lot to unpack here.

> That doesn't make any sense, the difference between nickel-62 and copper-63 is one extra proton. It's also bullshit, since the differences in spin get equalized by neutrinos.

First, nuclei are not simply the sum of their protons and neutrons. They have structure. While copper-63 happens to have 1 more proton than Nickel-62, in its stable, lowest-energy form it also has 2 neutrons that are in a different configuration. This is why it's spin is not simply the sum of Nickel-62's spin and a proton's spin. Spin needs to be preserved. Producing neutrinos to carry off spin would violate conservation of lepton number. You need to create a lepton pair, which is exactly how Nickel-63, produced by neutron capture, is able to beta decay into Copper-63.

> Also note that this closely corresponds to what we see: A star would be expected to burn by fusing hydrogen into heavier nuclei, which shed helium as alpha particles once they get too heavy, eventually ending up with mostly lead and helium.

This is not what we see. Stars burn hydrogen by two different methods into helium via the pp process and the CNO cycle. Carbon is formed in the triple-alpha process where three alpha particles fuse. Heavier elements are formed along the alpha ladder by adding alpha particles, a process that stops at iron-56. There are some other side processes like Carbon, Oxygen, Neon, and Silicon burning which also end at iron-56. Heavier elements like lead are not produced during the star's lifetime, but rather during events like supernovae and neutron star collisions by neutron capture in the s and r processes.

> No need for "exotic" physics. And it also explains the persistent failure of fusion energy

Fusion reactors fail because of plasma instabilities which have nothing to do with nuclear reactions.

> as it tries to build upon nonexistent mechanisms made up to confuse people trying to build nuclear weapons.

Basic principles like conservation of spin are not exotic physics nor are they a conspiracy. If the American government did sabotage fusion research to preserve nuclear secrets, why don't any of those powers who discovered those nuclear secrets anyways like Russia or North Korea have working fusion reactors?

Please take the time to read up on nuclear physics, it's a fascinating topic and very enlightening about why many things in the universe are the way they are.


>Producing neutrinos to carry off spin would violate conservation of lepton number. You need to create a lepton pair,

Yes you need a neutrino/antineutrino pair. I don't see what is being violated.

>This is not what we see. Stars burn hydrogen by two different methods

No such observation has been made.

>why don't any of those powers who discovered those nuclear secrets anyways like Russia or North Korea have working fusion reactors?

They also don't want to reveal how these weapons work.


You can't just get a neutrino/antineutrino pair, you need to first create a z0 boson to decay into a neutrino/antineutrino pair, and due to the Z0's high mass this is a prohibitively rare occurrence at the temperatures of stellar cores. Neutrino pair emission can only happen during the extremely high temperatures of a stellar core collapse.

The observation has been made. We can use emission spectra to look at the composition of stars, we can detect neutrinos given off by the stellar fusion processes and measure their energies. Do not mistake ignorance of the data for lack of data.

So if everyone from Washington to Pyongyang is in on the conspiracy, exactly who are they trying to keep these details a secret from?


You can see the emission spectra near the "surface",you cannot see what's inside. Still, plenty of lead heavy stars have been detected.

>exactly who are they trying to keep these details a secret from?

Pretty much everyone. There are not that many countries with thermonuclear weapons (Pyongyang doesn't have one) and you don't want e.g. ISIS make a clandestine 10Mt bomb.


Convection currents mix the star's material together over long time scales. And neutrinos allow us to peer directly into the core in real time.

The most lead rich stars ever detected are less than 0.000000000000005% lead by mass. Stars are formed from stellar nebulae which are the remnants of supernovae that create heavy elements - except for the very first stars in the universe all of them contain heavy elements. As a star ages and its temperature changes, it can bleed off some material, which will preferentially remove lighter elements (because it takes less energy for them to escape), leaving behind an increased concentration of the heavy elements.

Anyone who conducted even rudimentary nuclear experiments would be able to identify if the most basic tenets of quantum mechanics were a lie. Maintaining the ruse would require pretty much all the physicists in the world to be in on it. And if all the physicists are in on it, who exactly that is not in on it would be building these thermonuclear weapons? No, the basic physics of thermonuclear weapons are well known, but the engineering is incredibly difficult and resource intensive.

You get a nickel-63 if a nickel-62 captures a neutron. You can't get a positron/neutrino pair directly, you get a w+ boson which will decay into a positron/neutrino pair, but that w+ boson, like the z0 boson in the other case, is prohibitively heavy so this reaction doesn't take place. If you want, you can think of the 62Ni(p,2n)61Cu as a Nickel-62 fusing with a hydrogen to produce an excited state of Copper-63 which then immediately decays by double neutron emission to Copper-61, but the fact is the end product being Copper-61 is observed reality, and any model that doesn't predict its production is at best an elegant fiction.


>You can't get a positron/neutrino pair directly, you get a w+ boson which will decay into a positron/neutrino pair, but that w+ boson, like the z0 boson in the other case, is prohibitively heavy so this reaction doesn't take place.

Good. So you agree that p+p fusion into deuterium cannot occur?

>Maintaining the ruse would require pretty much all the physicists in the world to be in on it.

Any time anyone figures out they get shut down as described in the article.

>the basic physics of thermonuclear weapons are well known, but the engineering is incredibly difficult and resource intensive.

They figured making false principles well known would make keeping the real mechanism secret easier.


OK, so you'd get nickel-63(+positron and neutrino) which then decays into copper-63.


We observe this process by noting the over-abundance of nuclides with masses that are a multiple of four.


That doesn't make any sense, the difference between nickel-62 and copper-63 is one extra proton. It's also bullshit, since the differences in spin get equalized by neutrinos.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: