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> I don't think you've studied how the attack would work.

It's my day job to implement proof-of-stake https://github.com/status-im/nimbus-eth2/pull/865




How is that pull request relevant to our chat here?

By the way I don't think it's a good argument to say that your job depends on proof of stake being secure and therefore it must be secure (or "therefore you would know if it wasn't").

The coordinated bribery attack can be done by having people stake on a different chain until a majority is reached and then softfork and slash the minority.

If you don't believe the attack will work why not collect the bribe (since the defecting can be done anonymously / out of band) and if you believe it will work then you'd rather be on the winning side.

^ This is a rough sketch of the argument. As I said, it's hard to implement since you need an oracle to decide whether to pay the bribe, so it can only be done if you have second order byzantine fault tolerance and a few constructs. I believe we will see such attacks in this decade though (but ofc it only works if the PoS network is actually decentralized and it will keep working until the network becomes centralized).


It's a relevant answer to your personal attack "I don't think you've studied how the attack would work."

My job is literally implementing proof-of-stake securely. Also when I work and implement an algorithm, I provide references and sources, which my PR is.

> The coordinated bribery attack can be done by having people stake on a different chain until a majority is reached and then softfork and slash the minority.

Changing the vote is a slashable offense in the Gasper paper (cited in my PR). https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.03052 A change of vote will be ignored and the validator will be deemed malicious and ejected.

p17 section 4.7 Slashing conditions with proofs.

Furthermore, this has been formally verified https://runtimeverification.com/blog/formally-verifying-fina...


I'm sorry you took offense. My intention was not to slight you, how can you have time to study everything in the world?

W.r.t. to the proofs in the paper, they happen within certain assumptions, assumptions that do not hold when the attack is as I described because the majority will be byzantine!

The key idea in the argument is not computer science but economics. If you can earn more we have to assume you will do that (charitable behavior exists but is not a good thing to rely on for security) the issue is that PoS is vulnerable to the tragedy of the commons in a similar way to democracy (the amount of influence each person has is small but time investment of being a rational voter big, hence it is rational to be ignorant - in PoS setting the idea is that you defecting is unlikely to change things so the bribe does not need to be big). Once you've obtained a majority you can censor the minority. How much you can do with your soft fork depends on the chain in question but in general the very fact that you can stop byzantine behavior works against you when the majority is malicious.

The reason we cannot do the same in proof of work is because of how expensive the bribes are.

Anti-sybil based in racing is hard to censor but when you start voting you can do bullying.

Regarding formal verification, you can formally verify the algorithm, implement it safely and still it will not work in the real world due to the game theory considerations. However bittorrent worked and that was largely charity. Similarily the data availability problem has not been a problem (e.g. all bitcoin blockchain is accessible even though there is no monetary incentive to make the archive accessible). While there is no way to exploit known vulnerabilities they may as well not exist.

From our exchange you have been appealing to authority but I suggest working through the math and looking at tragedy of the commons. Since you are intimately familiar with how proof of stake works you will be able to convince yourself one way or the other.




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