I would love for the EU to even give glimpses of a super government; what I see is fractal bureaucracy. Every crysis that seems to come up, it's a show of people in suits, negociating and coming up with plans and commisions and big worded manifests, and coming up with solutions sometimes decades after the initial spark.
I come from Central Eastern Europe i.e. the poor people of the great EU. Our government is incompetent, corrupt, all the stereotypical attributes, and somehow, the most incompetent, lazy and corrupt end up Europoliticians (note: this is not a rule, there are exceptions). It's almost like a status symbol of when you beat the system; you get a nice cozy place where you do nothing. I am highly skeptical that we are alone in this.
Then, from a ground level, as someone that wants to love the European Union and can see the great economic benefits it brought us since joining, I can't help but stare in awe as all the brain gets drained from my country. Every single capable person has to decide whether they want to stay here and basically fight for scraps or go to the west where they get money they couldn't dream of here.
Sorry for the rant, your mention of a super government made me irrationaly angry at something I can't have, or don't want in its current form, and your deconstruction point is very much aligned with what I think needs to happen' currently.
The idea of a competent super government encompassing 700 million people is a fantasy. Instead, as the EU heads toward more integration you’ll see more of the debilitating infighting that makes the US government so dysfunctional. Once Germany and France start chipping into the common tax base, your politics will become preoccupied with telling Poland it has to have abortion or something similar. When you’re subsidizing someone else you feel entitled to tell them how to live.
Visa and borders won't stop capable people from migrating out of the country that you are amusingly planning to fix by isolation. It didn't before you joined the bloc, it won't after you "deconstruct the EU" — and you know it well.
As long as you have precisely pinpointed the issue with supplying EP with incompetent MEPs (a common problem among most members of the bloc today, arguably including the appointment of Ursula von der Leyen), you've resorted to a completely destructive resolution of deconstructing the EU. As a punishment for the failures of your homeland, I suppose? "Bad EU did it, not our fault" is such a common trope among local politicians (hallo Österreich[1] from the latest news) and some citizens.
The solution is in fixing your domestic politics, not dragging your capable citizens and fellow European neighbors down. It's solely thanks to the European Union's common approach[2] that the small/poor members of the bloc have truly equal access to vaccines. Otherwise small countries would have never been able to outbid rich Germany, France, UK, Netherlands and other power states on the free market. As you understand, there are no benefits for Germany, France et al. in this collective decision, they're literally paying with the lives of their citizens for the idea of the EU. A little gratitude.
By being in the same boat, we will together overcome pandemic, poverty and political incompetence. You're free to disagree, just don't pretend that your local brexit will go swimmingly — it isn't rosy even for such a developed country as the UK.
Oh please, rich EU countries haven't accepted the eastern block countries in the EU out of charity, they did it because it benefited them massively.
Big French and German businesses could now export their products to millions more people without tariffs and relocate production there lowering the cost and making insane profits.
Danish, French, Dutch and Austrian banks took over the banking business in the eastern block offering the citizens there much higher fees and interests than they would in their home countries, again, making massive profits which got funneled back "home".
IKEA, German and Austrian furniture and logging companies are heavily involved in illegal deforestation in Romania via bribes and corruption.
Austrian construction companies are often involved in corruption scandals for shitty and massively overpriced infrastructure projects in the Eastern Block, some with EU money even.
And not to mention the workforce and 'brain drain' that moved to the west benefiting the businesses, both white collar and especially agriculture, and also the landlords there on a huge scale.
The EU expansion has been a massive wealth transfer project of taxpayer money from rich countries to the big businesses and asset owners of the same rich countries, funneled through the newer poorer members in form of various EU projects. And of course the poorer members then get the blame by the populist politicians in the richer countries because they're "stealing your tax Euros and your jobs" even though their policies directly enabled and supported this wealth and job transfer in the first place as it benefited the big and well connected businesses in their countries.
> Oh please, rich EU countries haven't accepted the eastern block countries in the EU out of charity, they did it because it benefited them massively.
Oh, you know perfectly well which paragraph you pulled this sentence from. Nothing will sell the idea of exchanging tens of thousands of lives for some kind of commercial benefits for some large companies to the citizens of advanced European countries, if the citizens themselves didn't believe in the European Union. It just doesn't work like that in Europe.
> Big French and German businesses could now export their products to millions more people without tariffs and relocate production there lowering the cost and making insane profits.
Yeah, these pesky businesses optimize costs and seek profits, who would have thought. They do it while developing the industry and create a pool of high-grade (Germany and Western Europe is known for quality goods) specialists in regions where such competencies have often never existed. It's all obvious, the same thing is repeated again and again. You know who else benefits? Competitive companies from the poorer/newer members of the bloc, which now have a massive open market to compete due to the lower OpEx/labor costs, and essentially pushing stagnant players out of their home markets. E.g. my customers are a small factory supplying manufactured goods and high quality services all over the EU, especially Sweden, Germany and Switzerland—for a much lower price. My company is able to provide SWE solutions for companies in France and Finland just like to local businesses. Some of my partners run a 3-employees SWE consulting company from home offices in Estonia, providing services for a particular Spanish fintech enterprise as if it were across the street. It wouldn't be possible without the EU, the market is truly open and transparent without red taping.
> Austrian construction companies are often involved in corruption scandals for shitty and massively overpriced infrastructure projects in the Eastern Block, some with EU money even.
I don't get it, this is just ridiculous. You do realize that corrupt governments and institutions are exploited by foreign forces all the time, it doesn't have to be European? China[1][2] and Russia[3] are heavily involved in such activities, both are outside the EU. What's your point? It's not EU's fault that some Eastern politicians/institutions are corrupt, but this is its prospect problem and responsibility[4], I'd agree with that.
> The EU expansion has been a massive wealth transfer project of taxpayer money from rich countries to the bg businesses and asset owners of the same rich countries, funneled through the newer poorer members in form of various EU projects.
These allegations run counter to the economic growth charts of almost all countries that have joined the European Union. This definitely contradicts the economic situation in Estonia (again, Eastern Europe); also below is a reply by an Irish citizen, country which got richer after joining the bloc.
You're clearly reaching the anti-EU narrative with your exploitation/corruption claims, and you do it quite lazily. As I said, start by putting things in order in your home country, and then threaten or moan at the "oppressive" European Union. If you don’t change your mind by then.
> The solution is in fixing your domestic politics
This logic is akin to forcibly beating someone with their own hand and asking "why do you beat yourself". When the best people leave then it's blindingly obvious they aren't available to fix domestic politics, isn't it?
And as eastern europe does not have colonial past, there isn't large pool of brains that know local language and can be drained from third world to replace people who left.
I think it's in interest of whole EU that best people stay in their countries. Instead of just sending money via cohesion funds, it should think about creating local opportunities for them.
I dunno man, it can work. I'm from Ireland and back when we were a poor country, everyone left for the UK, US or Australia. Mind you, that was true before we joined the EU.
However, because of the EU, we were able to get a lot richer, and now people actually come to Ireland for work (which still blows my mind, even though it's normal now).
> This logic is akin to forcibly beating someone with their own hand and asking "why do you beat yourself". When the best people leave then it's blindingly obvious they aren't available to fix domestic politics, isn't it?
I type this reply from my home office in Estonia, Northeastern Europe. I did witness massive brain drain before 2003 when Estonia joined the EU, and I have many (some are exceptionally well educated) friends who left the country afterwards. Just recently a very well educated young neurosurgeon I know made the decision to leave for pursuing the postgrad in Canada and then Switzerland, both countries outside the EU (oh snap, "bad EU" is not guilty this time). Should I blame Canada for a local provincial academic/research landscape? How can I punish them, maybe cheer for some of their trade block to collapse? Pathetic.
I'd rather double-think about my domestic electoral preferences and what can I personally do to transform my country so that more people (many already do) would consider returning. I don't follow who's forcibly beating Eastern European countries with their hands and how exactly: people move all the time in all directions for better opportunities. That's how it is, people move from Finland to Sweden, from Sweden to Norway, from Norway to Germany, etc. It's fine. It provides a much larger landscape of opportunities for different population slices. The EU has made this movement much easier, but Estonians supplied Finland with labor well before joining the EU. Today Russia/Ukraine/Belarus does the same to us, if you're entrepreneurial enough to take advantage of it.
At the same time, English is the main working language in a massive number of local technology companies[1], incl. Pipedrive, Transferwise, Starship Technologies, foreign offices of Twilio, Skype, etc. You meet well educated people from all over the EU (a lot of Spaniards, Portuguese, Swedes) and outer world (from Russia to Brazil) in the foyers of these offices. For some reason they reach Estonia with mediocre salaries by DE/SE/NL and even FI standards. Apparently, you being a tiny Eastern European country, still able to compete for talented brains, if you actually make efforts. So do efforts, don't look whom to blame.
> And as eastern europe does not have colonial past, there isn't large pool of brains that know local language and can be drained from third world to replace people who left.
LOL so what? The most ridiculous excuse I've heard. You don't have colonial past, but you have a pretty huge open bloc of well educated people all over the EU. Compete for them! And yes, this may require adjusting language and cultural requirements, just as Amsterdam is a booming international hub and pretty much an English speaking city today[2][3]. People don't learn German, Dutch, Finnish and Swedish overnight, and it's more often not really required.
> I think it's in interest of whole EU that best people stay in their countries. Instead of just sending money via cohesion funds, it should think about creating local opportunities for them.
No doubts in that, fully agreed. But it's not EU's obligation to supply your country with profitable enterprises and (say) Polish-speaking citizens. You have to make efforts to achieve this, not seeking to destroy the union for everyone else, because you couldn't.
I did not say anything about blaming/punishment of people who want to improve their life by moving to another country. Where that notion even comes from, please? Of course it is fine, I only ask about mitigating the consequences.
I so wish I could improve matters by choosing in elections...except parties/candidates I vote for regularly end up outside of government, if not completely outside of the parliament. How then can we attract competent people when we always end up with incompetent/corrupt politicans? Everyone who makes the effort in this environment, ends up burned out.
And don't let me even start about adjusting the cultural norms of general population :(
You make a fair point. I choose to engage with some particular pieces:
> Just recently a very well educated young neurosurgeon I know made the decision to leave for pursuing the postgrad in Canada and then Switzerland, both countries outside the EU (oh snap, "bad EU" is not guilty this time).
Well, where I come from, everyone leaves right about now. There is no one to take care of our old people because they make 10x as much elsewhere. There is no one to pick up our berries and our grain, because they get paid so much more doing the same thing in Germany. Romania for example, in Eastern Europe, is the 2nd country after Siria in terms of emigration rate...
Yes, UE is 'guilty' in the sense that other regions are draining the talent because for some reason, talent found no root here. The EU should create ample ground for innovation, whether we are competing internally or globally.
> How can I punish them, maybe cheer for some of their trade block to collapse? Pathetic.
Cheering for some of their trade block to collapse could be something, if it indeed benefited a large segment of the population. I find the word pathetic to be rather insulting, and somehow an indicator of your openness (or lack thereof) to conversation.
> I'd rather double-think about my domestic electoral preferences and what can I personally do to transform my country so that more people (many already do) would consider returning. I don't follow who's forcibly beating Eastern European countries with their hands and how exactly: people move all the time in all directions for better opportunities. That's how it is, people move from Finland to Sweden, from Sweden to Norway, from Norway to Germany, etc. It's fine. It provides a much larger landscape of opportunities for different population slices. The EU has made this movement much easier, but Estonians supplied Finland with labor well before joining the EU. Today Russia/Ukraine/Belarus does the same to us, if you're entrepreneurial enough to take advantage of it.
You treat all emmigration and movement of human capital as a natural consequence. We're talking levels near Syria, where they are in conflict for a decade... This is not the natural, people move in and out. It's people move out. Period. From a member state of the EU. In numbers similar to outside the EU war torn regions.
I am writing this from an enterpreneurial seat. I have businesses, employees and work in tech. I vote with my head. I am politically engaged in my local community and try to make things for the best. I create code camps and internship oportunities for young people. I get involved in state level politics. Your high horse is astounding.
> Apparently, you being a tiny Eastern European country, still able to compete for talented brains, if you actually make efforts. So do efforts, don't look whom to blame.
Efforts without context are just...
> You don't have colonial past, but you have a pretty huge open bloc of well educated people all over the EU. Compete for them!
I'm going to put this up on my wall. "Compete for them!" must be the best advice I've heard for my business in the past years...
> No doubts in that, fully agreed. But it's not EU's obligation to supply your country with profitable enterprises and (say) Polish-speaking citizens. You have to make efforts to achieve this, not seeking to destroy the union for everyone else, because you couldn't.
I can't even begin to understand how getting some things that we complain about handled would be a 'destroying the union for everyone else'. Why would we give up slaves? It would destroy industry for everyone else!
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All in all, I think your sourced comment is both uninformed and malicious, given from a high horse without any real insights, solutions and or at least, things to build upon.
> It sounds like the EU needs deconstruction not more construction. Go back to a free trade zone, not a super government.
>> your deconstruction point is very much aligned with what I think needs to happen' currently
Let's get some facts straight. By your's "EU needs deconstruction" I read what it is: EU needs to be deconstructed. Like, gone. Or at least seriously crippled in some way. You mention migration as your prime concern, when freedom of movement is one of the fundamental rights of the European Union[1] since Treaty of Rome (1957), a crucial condition of the free trade zone. So I understand this is the part you want to deconstruct first.
Well, I reject this proposition and wholeheartedly find it outrageous, to put it mildly. Initially I wanted to reply that if life in your country is so unbearable within the bloc, then you should probably rather deconstruct yourself from the EU. But I thought it was better to give arguments instead, in case I misunderstood something. Apparently I got you right.
You follow your argument with accusing me of "uninformed and malicious" opinions and "high horse" attitude, but honestly you could try your luck with finding a rapport with a Brit or American, telling them that UK needs to be deconstructed for the common good of some poor, corrupt country. Then, after an honest outrage, you're going to play a victimhood drama with high horse accusations. Amazing hypocrisy.
> All in all, I think your sourced comment is both uninformed and malicious, given from a high horse without any real insights, solutions and or at least, things to build upon.
Please spare your moral assessments of my arguments. It's perfectly fine to be a part of Frugal four[2] within the EU, but you have clearly not yet invested enough in the construction of what you intend to destroy. In my opinion you got accustomed to the non-conflict, diplomatic and lulling attitude of the EU; and enjoy playing drama when facts are presented in the direct manner.
I'm also from the Eastern European country, I run tech business for nearly 15 years. I'm politically active and do read local, European and international press. I also know exactly how people in Ukraine flee country since 2014 (not quite Syria, but two of my high-skilled SWE/SRE friends are refugees from Donbass). We had hell of a lot troubles during 90's in my region, but solution is always the same: fair courts, free elections, competitive entrepreneurship. See that you have absolutely no way to currently influence this? Well, get out of the country. Just spare your flawed life lessons, we have already gone through this, and you still have to.
I don't get why you've decided that the EU owes you "solutions" other than providing you with the same freedoms we all equally have; Balkans war is not EU's fault. Of course we (as EU) could always do better and I sincerely wish prosperity to your nation. But EU freedoms is the "thing to build upon", and it's a damn good start.
The goal of this political and economic union is to help countries develop more easily under the same dome. There's no free lunches. This means that your country has to make own efforts, and there's no way around it. EU won't elect your politicians, won't cure your poverty and corruption, won't jail all your crooks. It's your responsibility, EU is not the La-La-Land. Apparently, you don't understand where you got into and for what reason.
> I'm going to put this up on my wall. "Compete for them!"
Please do! Good competition will lead your businesses and homeland to financial success.[3]
Of course every country should do its best. Noone is contending that.
But there is small, but worrying enough probability that some countries will fail because of this emigration. And then it will be not only their but whole EU's problem. That has nothing to do with victimhood drama or us wanting EU deconstruction or whatever strawman you came up with.
> But there is small, but worrying enough probability that some countries will fail because of this emigration. And then it will be not only their but whole EU's problem.
I understand your concerns and generally sympathize with your position. I hope that we won't allow such a development of events, that no country will be squeezed out of talented people and resources. While I personally find this scenario completely unrealistic, I agree that it's important to articulate such concerns, it's an important feedback for EU.
I want to be able to freely roam/live in a safe and highly developed Eastern Europe countries. To enjoy some fancy mineral SPAs in Czech's Karlovy Vary again. To use Romanian high-quality software services, and to buy Bulgarian-produced tasty cuisine in my local Estonian grocery shop. To welcome ground breaking scientific researchers, just as I admire Hungarian scientist Katalin Karikó[1] who pioneered the mRNA research and is now VP in BioNtech. And I mean it, that's the European Union I long for.
> That has nothing to do with victimhood drama or us wanting EU deconstruction or whatever strawman you came up with.
It's not me who came up with blatant "EU needs deconstruction not more construction", take a look a couple replies above which I directly reply to. If not for this outrageous combination of words, I wouldn't even bother commenting in this thread.
Czech and Slovak rep. are world leaders in pandemic deaths recently, with the rest of the region not far behind. And it can be easily linked to lack of competent people with guts to lead. Of course, individuals can still have pleasant experiences like you describe and not notice the cracks in the system, but that does not really prove anything.
I come from Central Eastern Europe i.e. the poor people of the great EU. Our government is incompetent, corrupt, all the stereotypical attributes, and somehow, the most incompetent, lazy and corrupt end up Europoliticians (note: this is not a rule, there are exceptions). It's almost like a status symbol of when you beat the system; you get a nice cozy place where you do nothing. I am highly skeptical that we are alone in this.
Then, from a ground level, as someone that wants to love the European Union and can see the great economic benefits it brought us since joining, I can't help but stare in awe as all the brain gets drained from my country. Every single capable person has to decide whether they want to stay here and basically fight for scraps or go to the west where they get money they couldn't dream of here.
Sorry for the rant, your mention of a super government made me irrationaly angry at something I can't have, or don't want in its current form, and your deconstruction point is very much aligned with what I think needs to happen' currently.