Ordinary people hang US flags off the front of their houses. In a bizarre indoctrination ritual, they make their kids pledge allegiance to the state from a young age. They think they're the greatest country in the world.
It's abnormal behaviour. There's no reason to hang your country's flag in front of your house. I mean... maybe if you live near the Canadian or Mexican border and are feeling particularly patriotic or insecure.
> I’ve seen people from all over the world wear or display their own country’s flags.
You may have imagined it. If not, could you say where? It is a uniquely American thing. I mean, Indians will pull out a flag quite often, but they're perpetually at war with their neighbours so it's kinda understandable. In the US you'll see flags on houses in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, owned by people who've never met another foreigner. It really is bizarre behaviour.
Germany. Southern Germany specifically. Lots of people even have Bavarian or German flag stickers on their cars.
Lot’s of flags in Italy including regional flags like Siena which has 17 different flags corresponding to the parts of the city. Lots Italian and Vatican flags in Rome.
I’ve met a Costa Rican tourist in Europe who had a flag hat, shirt, backpack, and a small flag in hand.
> I’ve met a Costa Rican tourist in Europe who had a flag hat, shirt, backpack, and a small flag in hand.
That's very common with tourists, and it makes sense... you're travelling through other countries, representing your own. Same with carrying a flag in a protest or at an international sports event.
That's very different to putting up a flagpole in front of your house to fly a national flag.
Flying in front of residential homes? I don't think so. I could go onto Google Maps and in short order find a US flag on a random US suburban residence. It'd take days to find the same in the UK or France.
Not as common I don't think here in the UK as US, but it does happen in certain areas/by certain people, and carries the same connotations, just with the possible addition of football (soccer) hooliganism.
I don’t get the fuss with the pledge of alliance (non American here).
> "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? It’s not like you can’t leave (except for the IRS) if you don’t like it.
Borderline indoctrination. You're not pledging commitment to it's "values" and young children are not at an age to have a nuanced discussion or awareness about what those exactly those values are, and make a decision about if they should be declaring a commitment to them or not.
Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values? You’d just be auctioning their brain to random others who are willing to do that.
I think we either have very different concepts of what indoctrination is, or there is much more beyond the pledge itself, and that is where the real issues are?
> Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values?
You keep saying morals and values. Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values? It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation. Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that? Or domestic internment camps during WW2? What about during the Vietnam war? What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state?
It's got nothing to do with morals or "values".
Perhaps we should just say "if you feel so strongly about your country at the age of 15 that you want to recite a prayer to it every morning then you can in your own time".
> Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values?
Pledging allegiance to the things that protect and serve you. Support for something larger than yourself. The American ideals in the constitution and on the statue of liberty, even if you don't feel others support them as much as they should.
The USA is a tremendous country that has done more to build protections for people into its law than almost anywhere else. You should see this and support it even if there are problems. America pledges equality and it's actually available. There's a reason the entirely of South America would move to the USA today, and it's a flattering reason if you'd look at it.
> It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation.
No, that never happened. Even during slavery, only some states practiced it and it was distasteful elsewhere, and even in those states it wasn't universal. Small help to a slave, sure, but your representation isn't fair.
> Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that?
Of the country that fought a hard war to end slavery, and is trying for equality? I dunno, you don't seem to have heard that message.
> Or domestic internment camps during WW2?
Meh, war is tough. When you're shooting some people it seems less bad to merely imprison some. Find a solution for the war itself and then let's talk about the imprisonment which were practiced to prevent more killing. Also, Canada did worse in its internments. More theft from the victims, and even worse scapegoating.
> What about during the Vietnam war?
What about? It was a badly chosen war that was guaranteed to go past the initial semi-principled stand into a huge quagmire of a proxy war. Dumb idea and bad. But are mistakes forever damning?
> What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state?
So, like the Vietnam war, it's a mistake. But fight to save what you've got rather than equating it to the worst dictatorships. It's also a forgivable thing though, to overreact to murder. It took the UK and Ireland a long time to trust each other after the troubles.
You should be proud to be American. Your country at least tries to right wrongs.
Even if all of this were true, there's no reason one should be pledging allegiance to the state. You can be proud of your country, your state, your city, and your community but to have to make pledges in front of other people to signal your patriotism is weird to anyone who wasn't brought up within that bubble of propaganda and jingoism.
Have you seen footage of North Koreans pledging their allegiance to their government? Dial that down a little and you get (some) Americans. It might seem normal to you, having been born into that bubble, but believe me the average patriotic North Korean feels the same.
Patriotism is just tribalism, and while it was crucial five centuries ago, it's a cancer on any modern society.
> footage of North Koreans pledging their allegiance to their government
You're literally just inventing stuff to get upset about. There's no dictator in America. When you pledge allegiance to the country - or when someone else does - they aren't saying they'll serve anyone's orders, they're affirming their support for something that's actually great. Whatever about the hand and heart - that's a bit demonstrative, but the sentiment is a good one - a better one than almost anywhere else.
It would do you good to try to see the good, before you destroy one of the last remaining bastions of opportunity with ... whatever moral relativism you're on.
> It might seem normal to you, having been born into that bubble
Lol, did you just assume nonsense about my life or what. No, but I can see from outside that you're pissing on the best thing you'll ever have because it isn't perfect. You can't see that what makes it great is the intent.
> Patriotism is just tribalism
No, blind patriotism to any country you're stuck in, is. Patriotism to a country that tries, and succeeds, to be better than most, that's just acknowledging that you've got it good and have a duty to extend that to others.
> it's a cancer on any modern society.
The exact opposite. The lack of patriotism you so embody is the cancer. If America isn't good enough then which country would you work to support? Who is good enough that you won't righteously tear them down?
Leave America and sponsor a migrant on the way. Let them appreciate the thing you despise.
It's just so nice of you to care if I'm upset. I love you too.
> about the idea that not everyone practices patriotism in the same way as you.
No. Just saddened that they feel the need to denigrate the opportunity when there are so many clamoring to get it. So stuck in hatred of America they can't see that most of the world disagrees, and they're the ones in the bubble. Practice however you want, the hand/heart thing and the pledge are not the issue.
I guess the idea that the reason the "entire of south america would move to the USA" and are "clamoring to get it" (other than, you know, geographical proximity and no funds to travel transatlantically) is in no small part due to the historical actions of the USA in destabilizing the regions where they live hasn't crossed your mind?
Of course it hasn't. Those countries suck because they are not the USA. USA on top = the natural state of things. USA! USA! USA! Think critically about the actions of the country and the shadow which it casts to this day? Suck it up snowflake or get out!!
It's exactly your kind of bland patriotism, devoid of any appreciation as to why things are the way they are, that the person you where replying to was talking about. And it's part of the reason as to why things are the way they are.
I think perhaps you view patriotism as a core part of why America is in the position it is today, but unfortunately to think that is to ignore history.
And lastly, the rest of the world doesn't really agree. I expect you'd be surprised the real damage Trump has done to the reputation of the USA abroad and how much it's tarnished the image you think you had.
> I guess the idea that the reason [...] hasn't crossed your mind?
Oh my god, I'd never considered that other people have experiences and they differ from mine! Sweet f-ing Jesus, it all depended on you assuming who I was and sarcastically mocking me! Hallelujah!
> Of course it hasn't. Those countries suck because they are not the USA. USA on top = the natural state of things. USA! USA! USA! Think critically about the actions of the country and the shadow which it casts to this day? Suck it up snowflake or get out!!
Do your parents cry when they hear you? I'm not American. I'm not justifying my tribe or anything.
> It's exactly your kind of bland patriotism, devoid of any appreciation as to why things are the way they are, that the person you where replying to was talking about. And it's part of the reason as to why things are the way they are.
Just a week ago I was re-reading a great account of the CIA in Guatemala. I'm quite familiar with the situation in general. I don't think you can even comprehend that someone can know the same facts as you but come to differing opinions.
But, about my patriotism. What do you think you know about it, and what about it is bland? How would we make it exciting? Do you actually have an idea or are you just slinging words around looking for a cheap shot?
> I think perhaps you view patriotism as a core part of why America is in the position it is today, but unfortunately to think that is to ignore history.
You're ignoring 90% of history by jumping up and down as if you're the only one who's ever heard of the CIA. It's pretty reductionist though, and frankly it feels a little racist and insulting to the South Americans, to think that the USA is responsible for the entire continent. I don't think you'd get broad support for your idea from the people of those countries. You're probably acting on some white-empowerment thing where you think you're so powerful you have some sort of skin-color based duty. A bunch of old Brits have a message for you...
Nobody is having the 'X country never did anything wrong' argument with you. For one, I don't think you could come up with a country that didn't (attempt) fuckery, but I don't think it's relevant to the attitudes and that's the core of the point about patriotism. You aren't celebrating some pure history, or your side being blameless, you're celebrating and supporting those around you, and those who will come join you.
And patriotism is even open to one such as yourself. You don't have to adopt anyone's jingoism. You don't need any "us over them". You simply need to find a core of what you want being American to mean, and embody that. If you think people aren't educated enough about history, then educate yourself and share the knowledge - like you do now, but without this "I'm the only educated person in the world" vibe.
If you can't, seriously consider finding an immigrant and adopting a bit of theirs. Support what they find meaningful until you can find it within yourself.
> I expect you'd be surprised the real damage Trump has done to the reputation of the USA abroad and how much it's tarnished the image you think you had.
Hahah, wow. You are not in for a good day. Sorry, but the world doesn't mind Trump one-hundredth as much as you do. I'm not in the USA and I think I have a vastly better idea of how the world views the USA pre/post trump than you do from inside your white-man's burden bubble.
There are hilarious videos of Americans not knowing which president did things, like build cages at the border. Foreign news almost always says "originally built by ..." and gives a fuller story than American news. (I picture you watching CNN, reading Snopes fact-checks, Tweeting your outrage.) Most everyone watching from outside knows that the stuff about walls and immigrants in cages being "Trump-Bad" was nonsense - they were things that every president did and would keep doing, and that the laws of the country and the people voting for those laws fully support. (Interestingly, most 1st gen immigrants in the USA support stricter immigration checks to stop illegal entry.)
I, and certainly my country, are no Trump fan - of the man personally. But his forceful actions on the world stage helped bring peace and are probably the best hope for Palestinian freedom ever but are also the only actions I've seen taken against China despite their posturing against Taiwan, who's our ally as well as yours. Simply calling Taiwan to thank them for congratulating him on his victory was monumental.
So even though he entered into some really annoying trade wars with us we don't have this hate that you do. We sort of grudgingly admit that he got what he wanted and because he was working for you, not us, that he did his job.
No, the rest of the world doesn't agree with you at all. And it's clear why, you're apparently stuck in a loop of yelling at your dad because he just doesn't understand you.
This is why you need some patriotism. You need to find something good and strive to improve and share it, your life is one of bitterness and internalized shame despite being in one of the best places with all the opportunity. And with a pretty good history actually, if you look at it as a unit and compare with the what other people have accomplished. Much to build on.
America is a great tool so grab the reins, wield her carefully, and do good for the world.
I believe you missed the parent's point. The Pledge of Allegiance is pretty thin on values, other than "liberty and justice for all" crammed in at the end like an afterthought. Mostly it's "my country and religion, right or wrong".
> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values?
It's just indoctrination. I mean, commitment to your country is implied. Do you stand up, put hand on heart and pledge allegiance to your family? Your church? Your friends? Why would you do that for your country? It's nationalistic nonsense that has no place in a modern, democratic society.
> Do you stand up, put hand on heart and pledge allegiance to your family? Your church? Your friends?
I didn't pick the marriage ceremony my culture used. If it involved a hand over your heart I wouldn't have worried about it.
> Why would you do that for your country?
That specific gesture aside, perhaps because I cared about the ideals it represents and the words in the affirmation.
> It's nationalistic nonsense that has no place in a modern, democratic society.
No. Without some sort of bond to those around me why would I respect their views enough to allow a democracy? It's because we share some goals and ideals. If I thought you hated the things I loved about my country I might see you as an enemy, and vice versa, but if we see that we share our dreams we can survive not sharing any other opinions.
When you're a child you can't realistically leave, and the pledge sounds rather like a promise to never do so. The people making those pledges have very little idea what values they're signing up to. It has the same vibe as chastity pledges, made by kids who don't know what they're talking about at the urging of their parents.
I just quoted the entire pledge and there is no semblance of that. Interesting how every reply has a different, deep interpretation of it. There must be some cultural context that is not possible to get from the outside.
> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values?
Why would you declare commitment to a country just based on the fact that you were born there? Say you were born in North Korea, would you still do it?
I dunno, I’d rather declare my commitment to a country that actually deserves it.
Have you taken a good look at your own country.