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As an Israeli living abroad I am torn on this. Not that I think Israel has South Africa level apartheid, but since both Israel and the Palestinians are up to their chins in the conflict and both wouldn't budge a millimetre a good kick in the ass towards one of them could lead to somekind of dialog.

As much as I disliked Trump and his actions in the area, at least he did something out of the ordinary that could have led to untying the mess. The latest "peace agreements" with Arab countries are probably a result of this and might lead to something in the future.

Unlike South Africa the level of religion extremism is too high on both sides to allow a peaceful resolution of the conflict.




Zionism has minus nothing to do with religion, Religious Zionists non withstanding. It is a popular misconception, i think.


Can you clarify your definition of "Zionism"?

It seems to be widely defined as the establishment and maintenance of an explicitly Jewish state.


That is correct, but Jewish in this context is an ethnic group, not a religion. Much of the original Zionist movement was comprised of secular Jews.


"Explicitly jewish" could be a democratic state with jewish majority. And it could be a jewish minority ruling over a non jewish majority.

Most Israel want the former. A hard core minority wants the latter. The last few decades the latter set the tone because the dovish side of the map hadn't propose a viable course of action to change the status quo. The moderate majority is too scared and it lost faith in trying to reach a peace agreement again after the violence the last try brought, And the "death to israel" rhetoric of palestinian leaders.

So while the majority is pretty moderate, the perceived lack of partner basically put in power an extreme right minority. This might change as there's an undercurrent of population change, where the new majority might be less preoccupied with western values of democracy and citizen rights.


You are technically right, although currently it's a mixed bag. Many cite religious as the reason for not letting go of the land, others simple Zionism.


As for letting go of the entire country, there is nowhere else to go, as for giving the Palestinians what they want, just look at the trouble Gaza alone is causing, look how many innocent civilians (on both sides, mind) Hamas has killed. I don't think for the majority of Israelis it's ideological.


You're conceptually right, but the current right wing in Israel is very much centered around the concept of a united Israel rooted in Biblical reasoning.

Zionism might not be religious, but the political forces that would prevent relinquishing territories in modern day Israel very much are.


Trump's 'peace agreements' were mostly mutual defence signals (re: Iran) that paradoxically make the 'real issue' between Israel and West Bank even harder to solve.

Gulf states are more worried about Iran's intransigence than they are about the rights of Palestinians and that's where we are today.


Fifty something years of more or less the same type of international efforts didn't really work, that's why I think something extraordinary is needed.

Trump is not here anymore, but I don't think his efforts actually made the situation harder to solve, this is a misconception, they did push the Palestinians to a corner and they lost some Arab support, but it could have led to new negotiations where the Palestinians are pushed by this reduced support and Israel is pushed by behind the scenes threats from Trump to lose support.

The Palestinians nothing more than a play tool for other Arab nations, not just the Gulf states. Even their close neighbors, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt, are not big fans


You are wrong, because trump didn't push israel to do anything. So the Palestinians got nothing, netanyahu "proved" that being an asshile is how you get good deals.

And this situation get to fester while corrupting both our people.


So you're right I don't think Trump did anything to make it so much harder - however - he had absolutely not one iota of interest in helping to solve the Palestinian problem.

Trump's 'big gamble' on N. Korea for example does not apply to Israel in that way.

If anything Trump would 'end' the situation by caving to pressure to declare the occupations 'legal territory of Israel' or something along those lines.

I don't think he remotely understands the history or cares, he'll take what some of his wealthy buddy 'advisers' tell him about it.

I believe he would do it in a heartbeat in exchange for guarantees for financing on construction of a few buildings in NYC and Tel Aviv.

He is as corrupt as he can be within the law, he will offer powerful people 'whatever' on a personal basis, in exchange for some personal gain be it populist or prospect of future deals.

FYI I don't think he had anything to gain on N. Korea but some kind of accolade, it's the only situation that didn't provide for considerably conflict of interest.

And yes, I agree that the Gulf States don't care that much about the Palestinians, but they do at least a little bit.


> Not that I think Israel has South Africa level apartheid

What is Israel doing better than pre apartheid South Africa? Or rather, what are the positive differences between the two regimes?


Arab(muslim/christian) citizens get full rights under law, vote like any jew israeli. On the flip side, in the occupied territories the Palestinians (arab muslims/christians) don't get to vote, and are basically under military occupation.

So Israel is (was) willing to give equal rights to any one who accepts jews place in israel.

The last few decades are begining to erode this willingness. And I fear we maybe slipping to full apartheid.


Not that surprising though that someone who is trying to form their own country won’t get to vote in a country which they don’t recognize as having a right to exist and don’t want any part in.




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