Personally I use escorts, it is not easy finding an independent, good looking, permissive, not-very-expensive girl but by my calculations that's a far more efficient way of satisfying my inner-chimp until I want to get married and have kids.
I do not want to participate in some mating ritual that involves two persons lying to each other in order to just relieve some sexual tension. In Romania I do not feel that generally girls are ok with no strings attached sex without this dishonest dance and even so, I couldn't probably get as attractive a girl as an escort. Maybe I could by investing a lot more time than I'm comfortable with just to satisfy a basic urge... but for 100$ I can have sex with girls of the same level of say Emma Stone that really know what they're doing.
So if I make even 25$/h that's 4h of work for 1 sex session, which will take place entirely when I feel the desire for it. To find a similar (looking) girl that will have sex "for free" will probably take more than 10x more time and even then the actual sex might not be as good. Even if it is as good it will happen when the stars align and we both want it at the same time.
Hey I'm glad to see another fellow HNer with a similar mindset - I've actually had those same calculations as you and made similar choices. In fact I travel quite a bit and have basically tried escorts in at least 30+ countries (including Romania).
I see a problem developing though where having so easily "hooked-up" with good looking women for money anywhere I am, even if I do get married at some point, I fear my urge to try someone new (and hence cheat on my partner) will be pretty strong after a while just because it's so easy and convenient to do so. I don't have a solution for this and this is also the reason I'm not able to get myself to commit to a serious relationship.
Not sure if you've thought of this or experienced this issue.
How do you prevent catching nasty STD's while trying out so many escorts? Like a lot of the infections like herpes, gonorrhea, Chlamydia and even herpes are spread through kissing and oral sex, so even condoms don't always save you. And a lot of these infections can be asymptomatic so a quick look at the girl also doesn't help. Have always wondered how people who follow lifestyle like you deal with this.
People can get sick after eating wrong food, due to chemical or bacterial contamination. Where do you think this is more likely to happen: in a restaurant with professional staff that feeds 100 people every day, or on a picnic without professional catering?
I think escorts are safer than casual sex, their job is at stake.
The analogy doesn't make sense cause people aren't served the same food. Whereas a prostitute is reusing her body. I agree sex workers are more likely to take precautions but alas just because of having multiple sex partners they are more likely to suffer from various STIs. As I said earlier wearing a condom doesn't save you from a variety of infections. So just having sex with multiple partners increases your risk of infections. A study from England that looked into it:
> FSWs were almost twice as likely to be diagnosed with chlamydia, and three times more likely to be diagnosed with gonorrhoea than other female attendees, adjusting for demographic factors.
The contamination is unlikely to come from raw food itself, chefs at restaurants are buying from the same retail channels as the rest of the people.
The source of contamination can be improper storage or handling, kitchen equipment, dishes and cutlery, people doing all the above. All these things are reused in restaurants.
> twice as likely to be diagnosed with chlamydia
See the table on page 347. For chlamydia, "period prevalence" figure is 10.1% for sex workers, 8.5% for other female attendees. That's 20% difference, not twice as likely.
Compensating for demographics factors is hard. You can surely compensate for the factor "young", can probably compensate for the factor "single", but how would you compensate for the factor "promiscuous", i.e. likely to go out and have casual sex? Because that's the demographic group people gonna sleep with, instead of sex workers.
> I fear my urge to try someone new (and hence cheat on my partner) will be pretty strong
I am the kind of person that will stick with anything if I love it. Even with escorts if I find one that I really like and she really stands out I will go see her exclusively until things change. I won't feel the need for variety just for the sake of it but I know not everyone feels this way.
I haven't tried this but there are people out there that build "harems" while being honest about it. If you truly can't live without variety and are confident in yourself you will find a girl that wants an open relationship or maybe you can find someone bisexual that can enjoy variety with you.
I appreciate your honesty. For the last several years I have supported a charity that helps women to escape this cycle of oppression in Romania. I've heard some of their stories, how difficult life is after they've found a way out. All I can say is that victims abound despite appearances.
Thank you. I believe I have enough experience to tell if a girl is enjoying her time with me or not and go out of my way to make her feel good (I perform oral and am generally not defensive). When I say I look for 'permissive' girls I mean I look for girls that permit kissing and "sports fucking". I don't choke / slap / hair pull or whatever. If a girl gives signs that she doesn't enjoy sports-fucking I don't persist, finish quickly and simply never visit her again.
I have heard my share of sad stories from them and I don't revisit those. Regardless of my participation or not in this trade I know the trade will go on, there will always be men who seek this kind of service so I appease my conscience by treating the girls well and not revisiting those that don't seem to genuinely enjoy my company.
I simply can not believe one can act so well in front of me and on the side be forced to do this. I mean moaning is simple to fake but the 30 min of conversation of the 1h I pay for? Keeping a cheerful vibe while opressed is hard to do.
I think many people could benefit by reading “Revolting Prostitutes” by Juno Mac and Molly Smith. I covers how sex worker’s rights are related to worker’s rights in general.
> I believe I have enough experience to tell if a girl is enjoying her time with me
Do consider that it is in the service provider’s interest to make you think this. When you are paying money for experience, you can’t use how the experience makes you feel to evaluate how the employees feel about it.
> If a girl gives signs that she doesn't enjoy [it, I] never visit her again.
Can’t you see how in this situation it would be in the sex worker’s interest to give signs she enjoys your thing? If she does not, she looses a customer.
I’m not saying that prostitution is wrong or that some sex workers don’t enjoy they job. It just might be the only realistic option for someone.
Some things that a country could do so that people have the option to not be a prostitute:
* food and housing for people who need it
* equal pay and career opportunity for men and women
* drug treatment programs that don’t put people in jail for addiction
I have no problem with a girl acting that she likes me in order to get my money. If she truly is that good of an actor then props to her. I only have a problem if she is forced into this profession by someone and my personal belief is that one can not be a perfect actor while being forced and abused by someone.
> Can’t you see how in this situation it would be in the sex worker’s interest to give signs she enjoys your thing? If she does not, she looses a customer.
You are speaking from theory and books. I speak from experience, I have been to a lot of girls that will tell you right quick that you are going too hard, won't like any position you want and are generally openly obnoxious to you so that you will leave as fast as possible. Usually you will find these after 23pm with low prices. I could write a small book on all types of sex workers I've encountered and very few of them are actually pleasant to be around. Now is that because they select their own customers just as the customers select them or because they're acting we will never know.
> It just might be the only realistic option for someone.
You are victimizing them because you haven't met them. I have yet to find a girl that is actually grateful as you would expect someone to be when they earn in 30 min what others work a whole day for. They could find a corporate job that easily pays 600-700 euros, live with a roommate and cook their own food like most other girls in Bucharest or have sex for 2h per day and make 4 times that. 99% of them, even the ones I carefully select are arrogant and spend money like there's no tomorrow living an expensive lifestyle. Can't really blame them because I am basically doing the same thing but to suggest these are hidden victims is really showing your lack of inexperience.
I'm not saying there aren't victims of abuse, what I'm saying is that it is hard to hide such abuse.
I'm not suggesting you are doing anything morally wrong, but keep in mind that they may be faced with a situation where not only are they being pressured into this by specific people but there simply aren't good alternatives for them to make decent money.
Men tend to make more money than women. If a woman has a child or children to care for, sex work or exotic dancing etc al may be her only really viable option.
I will add that like with any industry, insiders will know some tricks and may have been coached on how to handle certain things. In the book Mayflower Madame, the escorts were explicitly told to act excited if a guy splurged at dinner and bought an entire bottle of champagne and not act like this was an everyday occurrence for them even though it might be the second or third time that day.
There's a world of difference between the girls I'm talking about and the escorts who get booked for whole-night affairs and go to dinner with clients.
Honestly I don't even know if there are any escorts like that in Romania. The few people that could afford them are relatively well known and going to dinner in an expensive restaurant would be seen by basically everybody which I assume is not desired by men of high status. They might book them at the hotel though and honestly for 1000$ a night or more I assume it is easy to act.
However I pay 70$-100$, you think a girl would care enough to act for such little money? Even though it's Romania, most people that make money easily learn to not give a crap about money and are not generally motivated by money.
Edit: also, I never tip, I only pay the advertised price.
I appear to be the highest ranked woman on Hacker News. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent any time on the leader board here (under a different handle).
A number of people on the leader board are millionaires. I have reason to believe their participation on HN is part of what makes them wealthy.
I was homeless for nearly six years and remain dirt poor and continue to get a lot of guff any time I try to talk about that, no matter the reason and no matter the framing.
I have six years of college. Etc.
While I was homeless, men sometimes offered me cash to sleep with them based solely on my looks and obvious poverty. But trying to network with business professionals on a platform that literally helps a lot of people become quite wealthy has done relatively little for my bottom line and I have been repeatedly told "Go get a real job" and this kind of crap.
You said you are paying four times your hourly wage and I imagine that $25/hour is fairly good money for Romania. It would be decent pay in the US where people are trying to advocate for a minimum wage of $15/hour.
I don't know what her cut is out of what you pay and I don't know how much of her time you are getting, but for a lot of women, that would be vastly better pay than they have any hope of making any other way and they will put up with it simply because the alternatives amount to starving to death and may be just as objectionable as sex work.
Lots of low paying jobs are unpleasant work, like cleaning toilets. Lots of low paying jobs subject you to abusive bosses and abusive customers. It's common knowledge that wait staff at restaurants are typically treated terribly.
> While I was homeless, men sometimes offered me cash to sleep with them based solely on my looks and obvious poverty.
The way I find girls is through a community forum which practices reviews. I very rarely visit a "new" girl which doesn't have good reviews from reputable members so while I am sorry to hear your experience, I have never offered money to a girl for sex out of the blue or because I felt she was vulnerable. I've only ever been to girls that explicitly advertise such services.
> Lots of low paying jobs are unpleasant work, like cleaning toilets. Lots of low paying jobs subject you to abusive bosses and abusive customers. It's common knowledge that wait staff at restaurants are typically treated terribly.
You assume I am going to girls that are generally treated terribly, have a pimp that takes all their money and are happy to act cheerful for 100$ per hour having sex with 20+ different men per week.
There's no need for her to act, there's plenty of demand for warm bodies without any need for good social skills. And I believe generally those girls that don't offer good GFE are probably forced into it. That would probably even be the majority of the market. I don't know, I haven't done any field research on this but I assume I only visit like 1-2% of girls and am very rarely dissapointed with a new girl because it's hard to fake honest signals.
However it is not hard to make a decent living as an independent girl. The good ones generally work from 10am to 22pm at most. They take good care of themselves, screen clients and build up private lists where they won't even take new clients. If she just wants to live a basic good life she could take 5 regular clients 2-3 times per month and make 1000-2000$ easily working at most 20h per month. That money could well pay for eating only takeout and have a very nice appartment in Bucharest.
My very first words in my first comment were: I'm not suggesting you are doing anything morally wrong
I'm not making any of the assumptions you accuse me of. I'm just trying to say that the world of work and opportunities available to women are different than for men, so their logic for why they make certain choices may not be what a man would expect based on how he thinks about his choices in relation to how to earn a living.
I'm medically handicapped and for that reason I have been celibate for nearly 16 years. If I thought I could successfully become a sex worker or exotic dancer and make good money for a while to pay off my debts and pay cash for a house, I would likely do that. I have no moral objection to sex work and I've thought a great deal about it and a lot of marriages are thinly veiled sex-for-money deals, in essence.
I would rather get paid by the hour for sex than be some man's property pretending we "love" each other when we don't. I'm crystal clear on that detail.
I'm sorry if you feel uncomfortable with the idea that maybe some of these women don't really want to be doing this kind of work and feel like it's a big moral issue if they don't. But the simple reality is that, say, in Hollywood, women need to look good and be sexy to become successful. In contrast, men are deemed to be sexually attractive because they are successful.
When push comes to shove, women are expected to use their sexuality to some degree to open doors career-wise in a way men are generally not expected to do. This is rampant across multiple industries and it's something people mostly don't want to talk about and it's part of why you see so much sexual harassment of women on the job, etc.
I haven't caved to the pressure to go that route because I have a bigger personal demon looming over me that does such terrible things to a person it is classified as a dread disease.
But trying to get into that probably isn't clarifying anything. It's probably just opening up a giant can of worms pointlessly.
I think I will stop here, whether it served to clarify anything or not. Sometimes the least worst action is just "stop digging your grave deeper."
I won't comment on the personal stuff because I've stopped trying to save everyone. For the record I rolled on random.org with a 20% chance saying I should offer to personally help you and you got 57.
> When push comes to shove, women are expected to use their sexuality to some degree to open doors career-wise in a way men are generally not expected to do
Men are generally not epected to use their sexuality because it doesn't work. If it worked I'm sure some % of men would use it. Proof : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26165800
I don't believe women are expected to use their sexuality. Women just have that tool available to them and some will choose to use it. Some men will only hire or promote those kinds of women and honestly I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, we could debate this for hours.
> I rolled on random.org with a 20% chance saying I should offer to personally help you and you got 57.
Funniest thing I’ve read today. Is that a normal thing you do? Just online or for the panhandler at the corner via mobile? How do you determine the saving throw? So many Q’s..
For a while, whenever I felt tempted to goof off a little, I'd look at my phone. It if was an even number, I followed my desire, if [the last digit of the clock] was an odd number I carried on with what I was doing. Figured it would cut procrastination in half. I think it did.
I absolutely agree that if they could, there are men who would.
I don't agree that women are not expected to use their sexuality. I'm not interested in debating it.
I've stated my opinion. Some folks here will recognize my handle and have some idea of who I am and yadda and others won't. It is inevitable that different people will perceive my opinions differently depending on how much and what they know about me (and no doubt other factors as well).
There is no need for acting, a girl would have lots of visitors and make similar amounts of money even if she wasn't cheerful, probably make more if she's the fast-fuck type.
You underestimate how horny some men are. One girl was telling me how it was 15 years ago.. men would line up in front of the apt building, go in, get a blowjob and a quick fuck for like 20min door-to-door, pay 25$ and leave. I don't know if she in particular didn't perform "girlfriend experience" type work or that's how they mostly were but trust me, there are more men who don't care about how happy the girl is and don't give a crap about her being cheerful or not.
Not trying to insult but genuinely curious: how do you derive any kind of satisfaction (mental I guess) from this interaction? Don't you feel disgusted with yourself once it's over with? Why is just jacking off not a better option than this?
Why would I pay money to make myself feel disgusted? I am not a masochist. I derive great pleasure and satisfaction from this. My stress levels are kept well below my friends who are desperate to find girls and have sex but are disgusted by sex workers. I have much lower anxiety around women in general too and I am able to communicate with them normally without the overwhelming need for sex.
I just believe that mouthwash and soap works. Been doing this for 5-6 years now and it only gets better as I get better at treating them better, being more relaxed which makes them more relaxed etc.
> Why is just jacking off not a better option than this?
Why are you watching videos in 720p+ instead of using magazines? It's just a higher resolution experience.
I do not want to participate in some mating ritual that involves two persons lying to each other in order to just relieve some sexual tension. In Romania I do not feel that generally girls are ok with no strings attached sex without this dishonest dance and even so, I couldn't probably get as attractive a girl as an escort. Maybe I could by investing a lot more time than I'm comfortable with just to satisfy a basic urge... but for 100$ I can have sex with girls of the same level of say Emma Stone that really know what they're doing.
So if I make even 25$/h that's 4h of work for 1 sex session, which will take place entirely when I feel the desire for it. To find a similar (looking) girl that will have sex "for free" will probably take more than 10x more time and even then the actual sex might not be as good. Even if it is as good it will happen when the stars align and we both want it at the same time.