Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

I find this comment extremely unhelpful.

There's a reason why everyone uses microsoft exchange, despite all its myriad of flaws, and the flaws of its major client Outlook.

And it's because it offers so much functionality, precisely because it so much more complicated.

It's like saying you can secure your house if you build a 20ft wall round it with no gate.

Sure you can, but it becomes pretty useless.



I don’t think that’s true at all. Exchange is awful. It’s slow, hard to configure and doesn’t offer anything you can’t do better with simpler tools.

Like the majority of awful “enterprise” products on the market, the primary reason that it’s popular is because it’s from a megacorp who speaks the language of the buyers, who are all aspiring megacorps. I was horrified the first time I used exchange and couldn’t wait to change providers the moment I had the chance.

So it’s more like saying you can secure your house if you use a security service who sets security targets instead of sales targets.


Exchange ... doesn’t offer anything you can’t do better with simpler tools.

I call maximum shenanigans on this. Exchange is a fully-integrated groupware suite with a single-pane-of-glass on both the management and the user side. I am aware of precisely zero feature-complete alternatives, let alone anything "better".


...with a huge army of engineers who can do basic admin jobs on it because of the AD integration...with a full suite of structured training programmes to bring up more of those engineers and keep them current.


I suppose if, as has been my experience, “feature complete” actually means “whatever features ship with Exchange” then you’re right. But isn’t that the tautology of enterprise software? Vendors build a moat of features which end up in enterprise RFPs and ultimately lock out other vendors - not because the features are necessary or even useful, but just because they exist and, perhaps, some department head thinks it might be useful one day - or, more likely in my experience, the consulting firm involved in procurement gets a cut of the action. Having been on both sides of this process, I know exactly how it works in practice.

So I’m sure that for some huge enterprises, the complete feature set from Exchange is actually necessary, or at least desirable. But for everyone else - including many companies I’ve worked in at a senior level, and almost certainly many of the victims of this vulnerability - I’d call shenanigans right back at you.


Feature completeness doesn't mean the software is better. I think, many of those companies affected or the poor people there certainly wished for at least a moment they didn't use Exchange.


It’s pretty bad, but it’s probably the best of the available tools at the time. Serious competitors like Groupwise and Lotus were kind of nightmares. Open source alternatives offered great individual components, but not the integrated solution you got with Exchange/Outlook/Sharepoint.

Sometimes being the least worst option is all it takes.


I think the point is that you can provide a lot of functionality by using back-end APIs to communicate to servers in different trust zones rather than having a big ball of trust - especially an internet facing big ball of trust.

And you are right, loose coupling does rule out a very small set of functionality. For example an email sent to a user might have an smb: link, and then Outlook used to do a preview of the email, automatically loading all the links, which would cause your credentials to be sent to the smb:// server just by previewing the email, thereby allowing malicious attacker to steal password hashes by sending emails to victims (no click was needed).

So that would be an example of excessively tight integration and a design philosophy that was fast and loose with shipping both credentials and executables across the network. I think we have learned from those lessons.

In terms of why it is dominant today, it is because of fairly rational C level decisions, not users clamoring for it as opposed to some generic email/calendaring solution. Microsoft still knows how to do support, there is a large pool of cheap IT admins certified to work on it, and it allows you to run your own server instead of buying a service from gsuite. Really if Google could shed their disdain for human beings and learn to think of them as customers, they could take a lot of market share away from Exchange, because right now it is a trade off of security versus support - the functionality is basically the same.


If you don't want outbound smb, don't allow outbound smb. Your bad firewall policy isn't exchanges fault. Bonus, blocking outbound smb also blocks the myriad other vectors for this same issue.


Gsuite doesn't need to be the same as Exchange in functionality. It needs to be the same as AD + Exchange +Teams +onedrive +Sharepoint.

Gsuite email doesn't even have good support for things like delegated access to shared mailboxes, treating them more like a distribution group. On Outlook they appear by magic on your sidebar.

Source: I am currently migrating some acquired users from gsuite to 365


It is unhelpful to your business, if you get hacked and your customers lose trust into your ability not losing confidential data. The daily toil of using Outlook and Exchange is also substantial.

You conflate functionality and complexity. If you think about it for a minute, complexity actually hinders functionality. There is some intrinsic minimal complexity to useful features of a software system for it to be functional. Exchange could be way more useful, if it wasn't so complicated and it could be a lot easier to keep somewhat secure.

Exchange in many circumstances feels more like a banks vault but instead of steel door with a wooden one with the cheapest padlock you can buy and a sign "we go here once a year to check everything is in order" where real banks usually work a bit differently... There are many cases, where an attacker gained access to the complete Active Directory through Exchange. At least so I was told by a company that did the consulting afterwards to clean up the mess.


"access to active directory" is granted to every user account in a domain (how do you think address lookups work?) and isn't nearly as scary as it sounds.


The default installation of Exchange 2013 and 2016 make changes to security descriptors in Active Directory that can make privilege escalation attacks easier. Presumably this is what the parent is referring to, rather than just "plain old" user access to Active Directory.


I know. It really is quite scary, if you have been in a for-real security audit actually. We wouldn't be creating admin workstations if the security story with AD would be so great, hint - it isn't. Exchange must communicate with AD with much higher permissions than most users. It really is scary how many barriers will be crossed just so anything you would expect, like contacts, works.


I've been a part of many for-real security audits. This is largely incorrect scare-mongering. Separate admin workstations are symptomatic of a bad security posture and check-box security, they are absolutely not necessitated by nebulous concerns about the directory being readable.

Of course a server process which is designed to modify (among other things) group memberships needs different permissions than a user, why would that not be the case...?

If you don't like it being highly privileged, don't grant it the permissions. Or hire someone who can.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: