Deliveroo already totally robs these restaurants. Even for a click and collect order where I get the food myself Deliveroo takes ~20-30%. I assume this will cause Deliveroo to either increase fees or reduce service which may inspire more restuarants to hire their own delivery people again.

Overall I think this is a good thing, especially now. These gig workers have been absolutely essential to society over the past year. People have been able to safely shelter in their home while these guys (it's mostly guys) go out and take all the risks. Let's pay them.

In Germany, if you can't afford a lawyer you are entitled to the government paying legal aid in civil cases [1]. As you are - I just realize - in many countries.

Problem is, that a restaurant owner isn't entitled to that so that even if you are a small company (self employed restaurant owner) you are toast. You could hope to have a legal insurance covering stuff like that, but not sure, if that would be the case for most insurances.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aid#Germany

"That ladder just happened to be placed there". "The forklift happened to be parked that way". "The room happened to have too many people in it". "The fire extinguisher happened to be expired and failed to fire" -- all illegal circumstances (in various parts of the US, based on Federal/State/Local regulations)

"They needed to sue, but couldn't get a lawyer" is absolutely a circumstance we could make illegal. Making a circumstance illegal doesn't mean it will never happen, of course, but it does mean there can be immediate repercussions and fixes for it if/when it does.

> "They needed to sue, but couldn't get a lawyer" is absolutely a circumstance we could make illegal.

I mean -- I guess, technically you can, but it's one of the most insulting things I have ever heard. What are you gonna do, sue them for not having the money to have a lawyer to defend themselves? Maybe take them to court for damages, caused by them not having money? Kafka would have a field day with this.

You wouldn't take action against the person without money. You'd do something to fix the situation, like provide them with a lawyer for free.

Note I don't necessarily think that's a good idea (really haven't thought it through), but that's how I interpreted th comment.

If I make houses without a sewer line illegal, that doesn't mean the state has to lay a sewer line, it means you the owner have to take care that you get a sewer line or you open yourself up to liability.

Maybe you mean that making a circumstance illegal doesn't necessarily prevent a circumstance from occurring?

For instance, if you make it illegal for the accused to lack representation in court, you can then sue them for not having representation, a suit from which they cannot defend themselves, lacking representation, which then opens them up to another suit, ad infinitum!

I think there's some conflation of "regulating" and "making illegal" going on here. Mandating that the state must provide everyone with a public defender is not equivalent to "making lacking representation illegal".

For the sister comment: I wonder why companies are not entitled to a public defender, interesting.

It's just like tax avoidance. It's expensive to set up but ultimately it results in rich people paying LESS taxes/wealth than poor people for those who can afford it.

Or rather "collective actions" and "group litigation orders" are a recent thing and haven't become a standard part of the legal system. Not many people on any side who understand how they're supposed to work in practice.

The UK also has a different set of priorities in its litigation culture. You can win a huge payout if you prove unfair dismissal or discrimination, but it's much harder to prove that your work contract is unfair/exploitative or that Service Provider X is operating in a shady way.

Look (listen?) for the cagey answers:

"Is this Restaurant X?"

"I can help you place an order!"

"But is this Restaurant X?"

"I can take your X order when ready!"

They advertise that you'll get food from Restaurant X and that's indeed what you get. It's not fraud to resell product, you don't need permission from the original seller to do it (in fact I think that's a specifically protected right), and it's not fraud or any kind of trademark violation to describe a product as being from Restaurant X if that is a fact.

edit: This got way more discussion than I anticipated. I think that even if there was a massive banner on the top of the site that told you GenericDeliveryCo was operating this website as a front for the restaurant, we are not them, etc, this behavior by GenericDeliveryCo is still damaging to the businesses they are creating websites of because they tend to absolutely bury the real website via better SEO. There’s an argument to be made that some restaurants would enjoy having a website made for them - for business or whatever other reason - but there’s no reason GenericDeliveryCo couldn’t... ask first.

The Resturant gets paid and the customers get food. The delivery service adds value and gets paid for it. If someone doesn’t realize doordash is not the Resturant by now... who cares? As long as the restaurants reputation is not hurt... (here’s were the issues start)

To that end, if I am the Resturant, I see that I can add my own delivery service, undercut doordash by a bit, and make more money, and control my reputation by employing people who have incintives aligned with me, then great! Thanks doordash, for showing me the way.

Ah, but can I? Maybe not without forming a power group with other restaurants (or some other economic structure..?), as the cost of adding a “real employee” may be greater than the margin added by the delivery service. I need a structure that both aligns incentives between delivery service and Resturant, and is cost effective. Since restaurants weren’t already doing this, probably it has to happen at the meta-Resturant level of it can be done while preserving reputation at all. (Of course, the difficulty of it depends on the food being served, so that’s why, e.g. pizza was already being delivered.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1125#a

1125(a)(1) is pretty unambiguous in this context. If Grubhub is using a restaurant's name to "deceive as to ... the origin, sponsorship, or approval of his or her goods", that's cause for civil action.

California also has a new law explicitly addressing this issue:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

... and yes, there's an aptly-named website called https://www.grubhublawsuit.com/ describing a class-action lawsuit on this specific topic.

And no, that website isn't an infringement of Grubhub's mark if it's not likely to be confused with Grubhub's business. (It'd be a different story if Grubhub were a law firm in the business of filing class action lawsuits.)

Your linked law suit is about something entirely different to what's being discussed in this thread - that's about describing restaurants as shut when they aren't.

https://www.classlawgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/Grubhub-Cla...

You're not allowed to use trademarks to masquerade as the other party, especially if you're then trying to conduct business as if you were that other party.

Taking a step back: is there any trademark usage that you view as infringing?

Using an example from another side discussion: I hope we can agree that if you made a laptop and called it a Macbook Pro, Apple would sue the heck out of you, and they'd be in the right. Where we seem to disagree is whether it's infringement if you set up a storefront, name it "Apple Store", and exclusively sell products that you've purchased from an Apple-run Apple Store.

There's also a very large body of trademark specific law which may specifically address this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off

But the food isn't being misrepresented! It is the food of the restaurant. Passing off means pretending the product is something it isn't. That isn't what is happening here at all.

You and a few others seem to be under some kind of mistaken understanding that the food is 'fake' or from a fraudulent dark kitchen not actually associated with the restaurant? That's not the case. It's the actual real food from the actual restaurant, resold.

I'm not under a mistaken understanding. I'm explicitly saying that you might not have to misrepresent the food itself: if you insert yourself as an intermediary but claim to be the underlying provider, there's potential for confusion and damage to the goodwill of the underlying provider, and that is what passing off fundamentally protects against.

I don't know if it would fly, but you asked and that's a place a case might be found.

The broader point here: it's one thing to advertise selling someone else's product. It's another to _pretend to be them_.

The service of delivery is what is being passed off.

Somewhere in the product description, advertising, is the word "FOR".

Lightning cable FOR Apple iPhone.

Belking trying to sell the same cable as "Apple iPhone Lightning cable" would be problematic. Leaving aside licensing issues.

The proof is in the pudding. Go to one of the websites they register for a restaurant, and see just how many references to "We are not the restaurant, but we are reselling and delivering their food". Hint: rather few.

Call the number on the website. "Hello, I can take your order for [restaurant name]!"

"Is this [restaurant]?"

"I can take your order!"

Because all of the above isn't defensible. They're not just (re) selling the restaurant's food, they are implying that they -are- the restaurant.

Behavior here becomes important. Deception and context. Why in these cases if Deliveroo/Uber/etc were comfortable with their process would they not say "This is Uber Eats, and we can take orders for [restaurant]"? This again comes back to one of those definitions of fraud, "dishonestly obtaining financial advantage (your cut of the order, inflated pricing, etc) by deception (explicitly stating or repeatedly implying that you are the restaurant)".

and other vague hand-waving answer designed to imply that you are talking to the restaurant and avoiding the answer, "No this is a call center for a delivery service".

apple-sf.com (and the various food delivery sites being discussed) pass themselves off as the restaurant. It's not clear to a casual user that the order is being processed by a 3rd party.

Uber successfully had an app taken down that helped drivers determine whether Uber had cheated them out of wages they were owed. The important thing is that unless the people of UberCheats have a lot of money and time to burn they can't really challenge Uber's actions here.

Hell, a few weeks ago Apple forced a company to change their logo of a green pear because they claimed it was infringing on the Apple logo[2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26184352

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26084387

I don't like the colour of your shirt, so I'm going to say it's objectionable. It doesn't break any laws or infringe any regulations, but I want a judge's opinion on it anyway.

See?

In the case of passing off a service you offer as begin the service of another company, there is a clear legal case to answer. And as I recall this is settled caselaw in the UK and the people pretending to be other companies are in the wrong.

It wastes the time of the defendant and the legal service, which harms society.

It imagine it's also super stressful and expensive for the defendant to go through, even when it's thrown out.

Consider: - Cutting your grass at 8am when your neighbour works nights.

- A well off person putting their child up for adoption because they don't want the hassle.

- Payday loans given to people you know won't be able to pay them off, ensuring they pay you far more than the value of the loan.

- Banks processing payments out of order to trigger overdraft fees that would otherwise not have been collected.

Your example is flawed. It's not a crime or fraud to resell a product.

It is still fraud, not merely objectionable, to resell a product while in every way possible acting as if you are not a reseller but the original producer.

Isn't that what we (should) have judges for?

I mean, if a judge blindly follows the letter of the law, we can replace him/her by a computer.

A pro-restaurant argument might be that these alternative websites are interfering with new and extant restaurant-customer relationships, falsely implying a restaurant-delivery co. affiliation, and that the use by the delivery co. of the restaurant trademarks exceeds nominative use. The restaurants might also argue that the distribution of food, how and under what conditions, is part of their product: a delivery company taking too long to deliver an order could harm the quality of their product.

If I created a chase-bank.com website, and allowed users to interact with their actual Chase account through it, but I took a percentage of all transactions, it would be fine?

• https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24931128

• https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25114024

• https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20625232

What you should feel bad about are the excessive commission fees charged by those delivery apps.

The restaurant owner even discovered that, because of some inconsistency between his prices and the third-party ones, he could cause the delivering company to pay him by simply placing orders to himself.

This isn't what is happening.

The food still comes from the actual restaurants.

Personally I'm surprised you don't hear of hacker groups that protect websites and social media properties of the downtrodden. GoodFellas meets Social Network.

How does it cost the restaurant any money when they do this? The delivery companies can't unilaterally take a cut of the price, can they. I think you'll find the delivery companies mark up, and get their money that way, in this case where they don't have an agreement with the restaurant. The restaurant gets the price they ask for it.

If they've agreed to it, what's the problem?

The parent comment was complaining about Deliveroo setting up without an agreement. When they do that they have to mark up - they can't take a 30% cut of the restaurant's price as the restaurant charges Deliveroo full price.

They’re in a position where the options are pretty much “agree to this” or “go out of business”

(To which I guess the free-market response is “That’s not a problem - an independent restaurant SHOULD go out of business if they can’t compete with a website company when it comes to websites”?)

Or that they’d do just fine if no one had a website offering their food, but the Deliveroo website is an arms-race bleed-them-dry move?

For example, I like grocery stores because they deal with farmers and food distribution and save me from driving out to source my own produce from growers.

Sometimes they... might not. It's all relative the cut they demand.

So here, are food delivery companies worth ~30% of cost?

Yes, all sort of anecdotes are possible to drum up in this situation. Long term, across the entire food industry, can a ~30% cost be absorbed? Somebody is paying that, you or the restaurant, because it sure as heck isn't the delivery company.

Will the service provided by delivery (and advertising/marketing) increase volume to offset ~30%?

I don't think so, which means that because of their oh-so-useful help, means prices go up. This is needed because either customers pay more, restaurants make less, or somehow the delivery/advertising/marketing company drives more volume so they can turn around and immediately take that as their cut.

If the customers don't like higher prices, they'll stop spending. If the restaurants don't make profit after this new expense, they'll shut down.

The customer is. They are the only one bringing money into the system over the long-run. The customer is paying for the ingredients, the property tax, the delivery, the lights, everything. The restaurant just handles the money.

However I am under the impression that restaurants are NOT operating at a 30% profit margin, and cannot absorb this middleman cut entirely on their own.

It remains to be seen if sales volume goes up enough to offset this. Otherwise the middleman cut will be paid by the customer and thus prices go up.

FWIW, I don't think the middleman adds enough value to demand a 30% cut. So I personally opt out of that and order directly from a restaurant and also pick up in person.

>The restaurant just handles the money.

I thought they were providing the labor for the actual service/product the customer wants. Without that, there is no product for the middleman to attach to and deliver.

Basically what I think we're dancing around, is that perhaps the current business of model of restaurants is busted and has to change, post covid. The old model is rent a large space for indoor dining, cook/serve the food, sell high margin alcoholic drinks ;), plan for a steady stream of events/holidays (valentine's day, mother's/father's day, etc), try to locate near other office workers for a steady lunch customer base, and so on.

Maybe that doesn't work as well post-covid due to work-from-home a large shift to ordering out. I mean rent alone has got to be eating restaurants alive, when they don't need as much space now.

As far as middlemen and delivery, restaurants themselves are middlemen if you look at meat/produce being the actual materials and me, the hungry customer, wanting the spend cash for a product - but now eating at home.

Perhaps the new restaurant future is the rent smaller work spaces, or team up with other restaurants and have a booth with shared/common space, and serve mostly with delivery in mind. There's a place like this in my local large city, with a dozen or so vendors that rotate a little bit, sharing a large common area. It was packed every time I went, in the before times... not sure how it is doing now (website says they are mostly doing delivery so I suppose it is still up and running).

In which case a restaurant factors in the delivery fee/cut as an expense. Basically juggle it so part of the fee comes from not having to pay as much rent, and perhaps this delivery need is part of the new business model. Folks can still come by in person to get out of the house and save a bit, but factor in the majority of customers will order delivery.

I don't actually work in this industry so I don't know what actual numbers look like, but I do listen to the Planet Money podcast and a recent episode was about a restaurant that had to close due to high rents! It ended with the former owners wanting to open a new restaurant, but only if they owned the building.

I’d rather just go pick it up myself than use restaurant delivery.

I’m sure there may be exceptions somewhere, but even in Manhattan the deliveries that work for the restaurant sucked.

I think it’s that there’s no simple feedback loop.

An example is my local mom and pop pizza place. They used to have a few teenagers who would wait tables and drive deliveries. They meant well and tried hard, but it would take a long time for delivery. I’m a 15 minute walk and it would take two hours for two pizzas. If something was off I could talk to the owner and that took a long time but it was never anything bad enough to fire the poor driver, nor should they be. So the poor delivery lingered on.

They switched to Uber and deliveries went to 15-45 minutes. Not perfect but much better. Also easier to enter the order on my phone than calling it in.

Any time the food is cold or off, it’s easy to rate and get fixed.

It’s like taxis vs Uber rides. Taxis did have some advantages, but it way better now. Generally Uber drivers make more than taxi drivers, but there were some owner operator taxis (super rare at least in NY where almost all cabs are owned by big firms) who are losing out.

I've never, not even once, seen the same driver from one of these services.

This is a huge problem, because every mapping service directs them to an automated exit-only gate that nobody anywhere has the power to open for them -- certainly not if they just sit there for 5 minutes helplessly then chuck it out the window and drive off.

On several occasions I did not even receive a call, text, or any other indication to expect to find my food a thousand yards away sitting in the rain in a parking lot.

They are delivery dilettantes, with no knowledge of their delivery area, no oversight, no guidance.

Most of them have no fixed delivery area, they just follow the next call until they end up two hours away in another county they didn't even realize existed within the borders of their fine state until that evening.

I have received orders so delayed there were legitimate food safety concerns -- upwards of 3 hours from the time of preparation.

3 of the 4 delivery services I have tried did not take responsibility for so much as a single one of these failures to deliver.

2 of them charge more than double menu price for most items on most menus because they added the full base price of an item to (the full base price of an item plus the full upgrade price of an item) in an intentional and deceptive manner.

I informed them of this repeatedly and went up a completely scripted escalation chain that very obviously started in another jurisdiction and very obviously said exactly what I was later informed after requesting a point of contact for service of process was absolutely not their policy (specifically: they have my money now so I can go and find something convenient with which to fuck myself)

I have to conclude that either you've been trying to order take out from the hardware store and been sorely disappointed that your pizza never arrived or must live in alternate reality filled with sunshine, rainbows and GrubHubs that aren't openly defrauding their delivery partners, customers, and shareholders

Yes, of course. Aside from the example I gave where I used their self-delivery for 10 years before switching to this new gen.

And I suppose I’ve ordered from about 500 self-delivery restaurants, although I don’t keep a log.

It sounds like you’ve had some bad experiences and they aren’t like mine. I have had really bad experiences with doordash and grubhub where they wouldn’t fix problems, but Uber is about 75% responsive that is so much better than self-delivery.

From first principles it seems like self-delivery can’t compete unless they are really into delivery. Because they can’t scale well beyond their drivers on hand and it’s not possible for them to send out 10 orders at once, etc

You know that you can easily fix this, right?

I will never ever willingly tolerate that two hour delivery again. At any price or discount. It was a week night and we were starving by the time the food arrived and it screwed up our routine for the day.

I would pay a reasonable premium to have that meal delivered to me on time and hot.

So really, deliveroo/uber eats created entirely new business. A friend who runs a restaurant said he thought they were the devil and was never going to join them until the pandemic but he said he is now a believer. Adapt or die.

As for drivers earning a liveable wage, I am for that and maybe regulation is required, who knows but you bet your ass the more efficient business with huge economies of scale will have more power to pay their drivers properly than indie mum n dad restaurants.

The only thing we've seen these "economies of scale" doing the last decade is the exact opposite, namely using all their muscles to pay workers as little as possible.

That anecdote was immediately relatable to many of us who have gotten late, soggy, cold food delivery.

My solution to their failure is to go pick it up myself, including purchasing some of those red insulated delivery boxes for our family use. It makes takeout much more enjoyable when the timing is predictable and the food almost as high-quality as if served on-site.

As a customer, my concern is with a goods and services I’m buying. The restaurant’s relationship with its employees, food suppliers, and power company is their concern, not mine. If a restaurant wants to pay $100/hr or any other legal wage, that’s their business, not mine.

Well. This is self-centered to me. I don't want to buy anything from anyone who doesn't treat people with dignity.

So then you add the cost of user aquisition - which is usually giving out £5 - £10 vouchers and for most of those customers to only use the service once. Clearly the first delivery is a massive loss. Then following that lots of orders are done on a free-or-low delivery cost basis (incl. Deliveroo Plus).

These companies are in a land grab still so it's low margin and high competition between them and Uber Eats. Uber Eats is technically a better cost model (i.e. more efficient) than Deliveroo assuming car delivery, as you can interleave deliveries and cab rides.

Still just don't see what's wrong here.

I don't want to mention that I'm blind in every frickin HN post but I'm blind, and Uber Eats and etc. are great. and there are restaurants that I specifically know that are in my neighborhood and they are not available on Uber Eats. And I don't order from them because I can't accessibly, so they lose my business presumably because they have opted out. Then there are other restaurants that are local and on Uber eats, and I order from them and feel absolutely fine that I have given the restaurant a sale it wouldn't have otherwise had and employed someone sitting in a car that otherwise had nothing to do. For a minor marginal cost, the restaurant made an extra sale and I got my food. If the restaurant did not want to make this transaction at all, it would not. So everybody came out ahead? I got food, Uber got money, the restaurant got money. What's wrong here? It's like the old argument so many have made about piracy. Uber eats turned a person who otherwise wouldn't be buying food into a sale. Who lost here?

Also, let's say that registering bobs-pizza-chicago.com is wrong. If so, this applies just as much to JebBush.com redirecting to Trump's website, and all the permutations you can think of there. We either solve domain squatting in the general case, or admit that it's shitty but just as okay when done to a restaurant as when done to your least favorite website or political figure.

There are of course some site builders restaurant owners can use to improve this, but since, as others have said, they are not always tech savvy they probably don't know, best thing to improve accessibility I can think of is that local commerce boards create some sort of recommendation or guidelines on how to setup a business website following best practices with a list of easy to use builders for such.

What sucks about the domain squatting is that those large corps will have much better SEO capabilities, so even if someone owns register bobs-pizza-chicago.com and make sure it works they could just make chicago-bobs-pizza.com or some variant and beat them in SEO and steal their traffic, even if they were required to provide some banner saying "this is a doordash website" most people wouldn't care and order anyway.

I have friends who own medium-sized restaurants in a couple different major EU cities.

They all have domain names, and web sites sort-of, but none of them thinks anything matters besides Facebook and to a lesser extent Instagram. The web sites are rarely, if ever, updated. Of course right now they are all forced to close anyway; but pre-Covid at least one of them tried to take the web site seriously and gave up after a while, everybody used Facebook anyway.

One of these owners is my age, the others are younger. I even know a guy who owns a catering company and doesn't bother with a web site.

I understand your friends think a social media website is enough. This doesn't mean they need to accept having a website created for them. It sucks that they have to opt out of local delivery services, but it also sucks I have to opt out of junk mail. I still don't understand where the evil is here? It's legal for people to create websites that look and feel similar to existing websites. If this is a problem let's fix it! if it's not, let's not focus on restaurants?

EDIT: Note, the comment I’m replying to grew by about 300% after I posted this.

Let's assume that restaurants don't want people to order their food through delivery. Why don't they just opt out? If they aren't opting out, then clearly the people buying the delivery are paying the same as any other takeout customer? Where is the problem here? What is the thing that gets people so very offended on behalf of restaurant owners? I actively want to understand this!

If people have to pay a large markup, they may end up ordering less food. Or maybe ordering from another place because this one seems too expensive.

The offense comes from delivery companies forcefully inserting themselves between customers and the restaurant. Why not just let customers go to the delivery company's website to order, if that's what they wanted? Why is it necessary to deceive customers?

If a delivery company gets the domain freds-diner-restaurant.com, then they're competing for your traffic.

And their domain might end up higher in Google search results, leading customers to order there. So I don't think it's necessarily the case that they're getting customers they otherwise wouldn't have.

Customers that are only willing to order from Uber Eats etc. aren't going to look for the restaurant's website anyway, they'll just go through the delivery company's website.

The consequences would be union negotiated salaries are applicable as well as other perks of being employed (sick leave, vacation, etc.) and time spent waiting at a restaurants is counted as work.

Dude I don't know what you think business is, but restaurants aren't slaves: they mark whatever price they're comfortable with on their menu, generate margin, and if they don't like it, they close the door, or heh, refuse service to Deliveroo. It's not robbery if the client would never even have heard of you without it, and god the indian restaurant two streets away I discovered after 5 years missing it thanks to Deliveroo knows who they owe this new addicted client to :)

However, in the last year or so, that's all changed (in Berlin at least) with the introduction of the Finnish "Wolt" (which everyone here is pronouncing like "volt", but come to think of it, perhaps should be pronounced the English way). Like lieferando, they have salaried employees, but the app is much more akin to the deliveroo experience, with people who are on-time and great pictures/food etc. Prices are comparable with what deliveroo had before.

I'm sure VC money has something to do with the ability to execute, but assuming that deliveroo had the same, it doesn't seem impossible to run a food delivery service with real employees without huge price hikes.

That and them handling the order process.

Which means they might order less food than they would have with lower prices. Or that they might decide it's too expensive, and order from another restaurant.

Ok so if that's an option then what's the problem?! I don't get the fury here.

Restaurants are free to partner with delivery companies.

Restaurants are free to not partner with delivery companies.

Delivery companies are free to buy and resell product from restaurants and add their own markup.

Restaurants are free to decline to sell product to delivery companies who add their own markup.

Everyone can do what they want here.

Which is fine. I think the problem is that they are representing themselves as if they are the restaurant, not a reseller. Customers might go to the website the delivery company setup (restaurant-name-location.com instead of restaurant-name.com or whatever their pattern is) instead of the restaurant's website, see the high prices, and decide to try a cheaper place.

That's exactly my point - and your last touch is the Deliveroo worker. So take it up with them. They can then take it up with the restaurant if it was the restaurant's fault, but that's their job as the reseller.

Option A - 100% for a dining area at a trendy location

Option B - 80% w/o dining area at a trendy location

There are many cases where people say it is Option B but Option A doesn't exist.

Preparing food for takeaway actually saves a lot and that's why restaurants that traditionally offer takeaway in addition to on-premises service often offer 10-15% discount for takeway as a matter of course.

Deliveroo is not "robbing" restaurants if they charge 20%...

Anyway, at least in the UK and some other EU countries there is no obligation to lower the price because tax is lower (since prices to consumers are inclusive of all taxes) so if tax is indeed lower it can be a bonus for the restaurant (on top of cost savings), which makes Deliveroo's fee even less of a "robbery".

Deliveroo allows this too, but frankly I'd happily pay a premium to have those restaurants deliver using Deliveroo rather than themselves, as when it's the restaurant themselves you lose visibility of how far along the delivery is in the app. As a result, for restaurants that deliver themselves that will count against them when I consider where I want to order from.

This is far from universally true, especially Asian takeaways typically hired their own driver, but the practice was also commonplace for many actual restaurants too

Many of the local restaurants will deliver

I think perhaps many commenters here are very young, so when I say restaurants did not deliver they cannot remember how it was 20 years ago. Order over the phone for delivery was limited to a few types of food places (mostly pizza and fast food made by the same establishments).

As an online platform Deliveroo was perhaps not the first (Just Eat is older, though not as focussed on delivery) but in the UK (and perhaps Europe) they really made that service explode. Note, though that I did mention Deliveroo and similar services in my original comment, not only Deliveroo. I think this is also linked with the rise of smartphone and apps, which, really exploded in 2007 with the first iPhone. The same goes with Uber.

Even takeaway in a restaurant was not really a thing and asking for a doggy-bag would only get you a sneer (and often still does).

When I was in Uni in both France and UK (up to early 2000s), if you wanted food delivered it was pizza, kebabs (in UK), or perhap Chinese.

This really changed over the last 10 years or so. Deliveroo was founded in 2013 and they are the ones who really made that explode.

Gig economy companies like Deliveroo are particularly hostile to their labour force. Without fixed wages for employees they're directly incentivised to flood the pool of workers with as many people as possible. The consequence of this is that delivery times are lower, but the compensation available to each employee is greatly reduced compared to traditional delivery models.

The reason is that it ends up not being a choice of the worker at all, incentives align in such a way that these are no longer an "option" but instead a replacement of existing work/choice that had much better outcomes for the worker than the replacement. A great example of this would be "voluntary" exemptions from overtime protections in the UK. There is a default limit on the maximum amount of overtime most workers can undertake. The employee can optionally agree to lift this limit. In practice every employee is given a form to sign along with their employment contract that agrees to lift this limit. It no longer becomes a choice of the worker but one of management.

The same thing happened with "zero hours" contracts. Theoretically they allow employees to be more flexible in how much they work. In reality they remove the ability for workers to plan time or budget due to uncertainty in how often and when management decides they will be working. The key thing is that this replaced the existing, more reliable, system of work not because employees chose it as an option, but because employers unilaterally switched to it.

I'd argue further that the gig economy itself is both a cause and a symptom of economic instability in the lower working class. It emerged from the inability of this group to find to find enough stable, well paying work. It accelerates that economic instability by forcing workers into an even more precarious position. With a zero hours contract the economic uncertainty came from the fact that you didn't know when you'd be working. With gig work you know when you'll be working but you won't know what you'll be paid. This is a fundamental shift in the social contract of employment, in that the risk of loss is born by the employer and in exchange the employer keeps any profit. In the gig economy the employer shifts that burden onto the employees without a corresponding shift in control/profit.

In that sense, having some companies with shitty conditions offers an important safety valve to learn that regulations were misguided.

There's a lot of churn in the job market, so people go in and out of work frequently. They may spend a few weeks or months claiming unemployment benefits. In the UK that would be Universal Credit, and some people claiming UC were forced into working zero hour contracts for companies like Uber by the DWP.

For many people it's not a choice.

In your example if we had no unemployment safety nets at all then any form of labour would be justifiable because some workers would choose it over begging/starvation. In fact it is this very argument that is used to justify why people should be allowed to sell themselves into slavery. I believe the preferable alternative to this is to improve those safety nets such that people are able to make a choice on whether that work is worth doing, free from coercion.

> But in a situation where some companies offer shitty conditions, and lots of people decide to go away from their existing companies and work for the shitty companies, then you have to at least entertain the notion that you were wrong about what makes a job shitty.

The problem is that if those shitty conditions allow the company to outcompete, competitors are eventually forced to match those conditions. If we get rid of labour regulation and I start employing children for £0.30/hour my competitors are forced to take a similar step or I'll destroy the majority of them on price alone.

The gig companies do exactly this by shifting the risk of loss on to the worker and relying on information asymmetry between themselves and the worker on the effects of worker competition in order to retain them. In models of traditional employment the company hires and schedules its workers based on forecasted need. If the company mistakenly hires more workers than needed they suffer a reduction in profit. If a gig company "hires" too many employees, the employees make a lower hourly wage and the company increases customer satisfaction due to quicker delivery/ride times. This shifting of risk is what makes gig companies dangerous to the existence of other jobs regardless of whether they're preferable in other ways.

Gig companies are directly incentivised to maximise the "supply" of workers which results in a situation where each additional person signing up reduces the potential earnings of participants in the same area. This is advantageous to the companies but not the workers and that's something that isn't immediately obvious, we have to hope that enough people realise before it becomes the only option.

What makes this even worse is that these companies are burning huge amounts of capital dumping prices/inflating payouts in order to disguise the true costs of their business. The result is that stable businesses are squeezed out artificially.

> In that sense, having some companies with shitty conditions offers an important safety valve to learn that regulations were misguided.

This wouldn't tell you that regulations were misguided unless they happened to be in violation of those regulations. I think that while imperfect public opinion/democratic vote is a much better option than "the invisible hand" for deciding which regulations are valuable.

Is this what's actually happening here? Are there delivery/cab companies paying a fair wage that's being out-competed by uber? To my knowledge delivery/cab companies don't pay a fair wage in general.

The reason the smaller ones haven't faced more attention is that these actions usually require the person who wants employment status themselves to raise the issue and be prepared to take their employer to tribunal or court.

is it really normal for a CEO to earn a thousand times more than a normal employee? a hundred times?

1. Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn 2. Uber set the contract terms and drivers had no say in them 3. Request for rides is constrained by Uber who can penalise drivers if they reject too many rides 4. Uber monitors a driver's service through the star rating and has the capacity to terminate the relationship if after repeated warnings this does not improve

Even if this does hurt Uber short-term, it sounds like the gig economy will be just fine, as long as companies change their behaviour with respect to the above points.

This is a fair judgement. I support zero-hours contracts in a balanced and non-exploitative relationship where the "self-employed" label is not just lip-service.

This was clearly not the case according to the first 3 of those observations.

1. The company set the hourly rate which meant they dictated how much I could earn

2. The company set the contract terms

3. The company told me what features to build and could penalize me if I decided not to build some

4. The company could evaluate my performance any way they wanted and terminate the contract at any time for no cause

If this company could do all of these things, which I think are pretty standard, why can't Uber?

2. I also negotiate contract terms. Uber drivers cannot do this.

3. Uber drivers are penalized for not taking rides, which is more akin to refusing a paid opportunity than building a feature. Again as a contractor I do negotiate the work I can and want to do.

4. For this point I agree with you. I can also terminate the contract on my end.

The main difference I see is the imbalance of power. As a self-employed software engineer I can decide who I work with and negotiate almost everything with them. I have my business, they have theirs, and we discuss to try to reach agreements or not. Uber drivers are not in this position. Uber can dictate everything they want, drivers can only decide to stay or leave.

For #3, drivers may be penalized for being logged in and rejecting rides (though even that may have changed recently). But that is more akin to missing a deadline or not being available at an agreed upon time, something which any contractor might be penalized for. Uber drivers are always free to just decide not to log in and work at all and aren't penalized for that.

Is there a 3rd party coming in and deciding what their rates are going to be? Or is it between them and the client?

I still have no power to negotiate contract terms though, as the only other company I could contract with is Lyft, and their terms are basically the same.

Nevertheless, driving for Uber is much much more profitable than it was in the early days. Increase in ride demand is the main reason. Tips can also put you to $30/hour pure profit if you know how to be entertaining.

Except now the pandemic has destroyed the market.

company: Our payment terms are ABC.

contractor: Can we do XYZ instead?

company: Sorry, but we are not willing to do XYZ. It will need to be ABC, can you accept that?

contractor: OK

You are mistaking the right of the contractor to negotiate with an obligation on the company to concede, which does not exist in any situation.

https://www.hiscox.co.uk/business-blog/what-is-ir35-and-what...

There's a questionnaire you can do here:

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/check-employment-status-for-t...

It seems more likely to come down to setting your own hours, can you pay other people to do work for you, can you have other clients, are you using your own equipment, etc.

This sounds much more like what I would think the definition of contractor is, except for maybe you can subcontract the work. That would be something I would think could go either way in a contract.

https://www.freelancermap.de/blog/aktuelle-rechtslage-zur-sc...

No holidays, no sick pay, no minimum notice term, no overtime, no bonus, no 20% time, no paid lunches or benefits.

A few years ago this was common in many London investment banking dev jobs - it appealed to both the companies and certain developers. Often those who had other business interests.

I had a colleague whose contracting company was paying his wife in gold via an offshore company to further reduce tax paid (I only remember that from a drunken discussion so can't swear to its truthfulness)

They seem to have died down a lot now.

Dividends only save NI rather than tax as only first 2K is tax free, then its' 7.5% to the end of the lower rate band, and then something else in the higher one (andahdn as they come from profits corporation tax has already been paid on them)

Real savings come from avoiding NI, and having partners as co-employees / directors / shareholders so the 'income' can be split between two people rather than one

Offshore companies and gold bars is ripe for HMRC taking a closer look

This rate would have been negotiated by you. You then agreed to a specific rate.

The price of Uber rides varies based on demand so the driver doesn't know the price in advance + even if they did they are not allowed to refuse the ride.

That Uber exercises control of the relationship is what is indicating that Uber is an employer here.

1. I negotiate a rate. Sometimes I negotiate a higher rate after a few months.

2. I have frequently asked for changes to contract terms, usually after a legal review, and had those changes put in place.

3.... kinda agree with you, not sure it's exactly the same as the uber situation

4. The client company can't evaluate my performance in any way they want, at least officially, they get no say over how or when I do the work, how much I am available to work etc.

Practically speaking, point 4 is usually something of a compromise, as the client needs me to deliver the work in a timely fashion, and me signing a contract then disappearing for a month wouldn't go down well! But neither would it be good business practice for me.

Large companies obviously don't negotiate as much as small companies. In the US, contracting for engineering has been outlawed to a large degree, so large companies avoid doing it because the penalties are retroactive taxes and fines. And perhaps class action suits from former contractors as well. So it's mainly small companies without "by the book" behavior doing it in software. In other fields, it is completely common however.

> The converse doesn't work. Maybe your experience is with companies who like to do legally-unnecessary things.

It's not legally necessary to negotiate a pay rate, but it is something that often happens, usually informally. The point is not that it is necessary but that it is possible - an uber driver cannot negotiate. I can and do.

> In the US, contracting for engineering has been outlawed to a large degree

Thankfully that's not the case here!

The lack of ability to negotiate prices - be it with a middleman or the actual customer - is one of several tests to that points strongly towards an employee relationship, whether you're a driver or an IT contractor.

I'll note that I see you say elsewhere you're an IT contractor. If you're an IT contractor in the UK, I presume you've had to answer questions about IR35. If you haven't, then you really should have a discussion about IR35 with your accountant, because get that wrong and you risk facing a massive tax bill.

I'm an IT contractor in the UK, but not an UK resident nor citizen; my accountant said IR35 doesn't apply to me then.

For your comparison to contracting, I've contracted quite a lot, and I have always had the ability to state my rate, and the client have had the ability to state theirs, and we arrive at something that may be mine, or theirs or something in between, but there has always been actual discussion.

With Uber you're presented with a price, and you take it or leave it, and if you leave it Uber never comes back with a higher price - on the contrary, if you keep leaving it they may penalise you.

That alone would not necessarily have caused it to be deemed employment, but combined with the other element that all points to drivers having very little control demonstrates that this is not a contract entered into by equals, but one were drivers are subservient, and that points very strongly to an employee relationship under UK law.

That there may be similar elements in your IT contracting does not mean Uber drivers are not employees, but that you might be.

E.g. when I did contracting:

* I always negotiated a rate, whether or not there was a middleman in the process.

* There was always a defined end to the contract (but it could be extended)

* I had marketing costs.

* I paid for my own equipment, and the costs were amortised over my contracts.

* I had more than one client at a time a lot of the time, but certainly more than one per year.

* I decided when I worked, and how to do the work, and where to work and it was not ordinarily in their offices.

Each one of those pointed towards me being a genuine contractor outside of IR35. Each one of them going the other way would not individually mean I was suddenly inside IR35 or in a deemed employment, but each additional one would increase the likelihood the relationship is an employment relationship.

EDIT: To make it clear, IR35 is the tax treatment only, but it's often a useful proxy to indicate whether or not you have a claim to be an employee, because the tests that indicate if you're within IR35 are much the same things a court or tribunal would consider if you were to ask them to rule on whether or not you're an employee.

EDIT2: Also, if you're a contractor in the UK but not resident that points to a short term contract. That does suggest you'd not be considered an employee, certainly.

There is a contradiction here... Keep in mind that Uber have always explicitly stated that they are just a platform to connect drivers with passengers. So the negotiation (even if it is just accepting or declining terms) must happen between the driver and the customer - i.e. every new passenger.

Except that, as you point out, Uber punishes drivers who negotiate in this way! The driver isn't even allowed to refuse customers. It's as if you told your agent "ok I'm open to work", they reply "there's a job 150 miles away, you need to be there at 6am every morning", and you weren't allowed to decline!

So we started with very little negotiation power (the "contractor" can say yes or no to the terms predefined by the platform), and then saw this reduced even more when the platform prevents "contractors" from negotiating in this way with each customer - clearly they are a contractor no more

As I said, you are allowed to refuse customers - simply turn off your availability. You are not allowed to decline rides when you've marked yourself available, just as IT contractors aren't allowed to decline jobs after they announce availability.

It's not true that platforms must allow direct provider-customer negotiation or it's employment. Be careful with this, because most of B2B world is running on middlemen similar to Uber (just without an app) - you might suddenly make everyone an employee!

> "there's a job 150 miles away, you need to be there at 6am every morning", and you weren't allowed to decline!

This is totally false in case of Uber. You can be anywhere in a city-wide zone, you're free to turn on your availability at any time you wish, and you can turn it off at any time you wish, and you can stay offline for as long as you wish - all of this is impossible for employees.

> clearly they are a contractor no more

How so? Are they using their own equipment? Yes. Are they defining their own working hours and place of work? Yes. Are they able to work or not work whenever they choose? Yes. Are they paid per job and not per hour/month/year? Yes.

Please tell me, who is a contractor in your world? Seems like absolutely no one would fall into your criteria. Negotiation never was the defining feature of a contractor, only one of many criteria, and many contractors don't have any ability to negotiate at all (due to long term contracts based on e.g. volume)! And still, in case of Uber there is negotiation, you can decline to work if you don't like the terms, unlike employees.

I don't get this - I've done a bit of consulting and it didn't work like you describe. A client reaches out to you (either directly or through an agency), they describe the mission, you say yes or no, negotiate the rate and bingo. Exactly like a plumber.

What system are you describing?

> who is a contractor in your world?

Plumbers, independent building contractors, software contractors, corporate trainers - there are lots of contractors out there. The general rule is that they accept no job security in exchange for higher rates than the equivalent salaried position (e.g. an independent plumber makes 2x what a salaried plumber does, however if they get ill or break a leg they are in trouble..). This for me is the main test that shows Uber isn't contracting - Uber drivers make the same or less than salaried taxi drivers!

For your contract to be legal it would have to pass other tests, but for you it was an objectively much stronger position (your agreed a rate you thought your time was worth when you signed the contract, not whatever your client thought they could hire you out to their next customer for)

It's hard to tell from the information you have given us, but it sounds like it could be an employer-employee type relationship.

You can take an online test here: https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/check-employment-status-for-t...

In other words, you're not working for these platforms, it's just a marketplace. With Uber, drivers are working for Uber, not for the passengers. However, Uber is pretending to be a marketplace, and it isn't. This sentence just proves that.

The issue is whether you can pay someone way less than what they'd otherwise be paid for the same work, just by saying they're contractors. A lot of software contractors get paid quite a lot more than comparable salaried employees, so they don't complain.

2. As above.

3. Not equivalent with plenty of other drivers in the area to take the call - if the driver was dropping the passenger off halfway it would be equivalent.

4. This is fair - and the only argument in the judgement I thought weak.

So, maybe it is not exactly the same.

What are you trying to say? Did you take the company to court?

Because Uber "could" as well, until a court said they don't.

Uber isn't actually going to reclassify their drivers after this ruling because the case was about its policies as of 2016. For example, they have since removed the penalties for rejecting too many rides. Labor activists would have to go back to court for current drivers.

I sure hope they'll declare all taxi drivers "employees of the cities they get the medallions from". With the city being equally on hook for all the insurances and other benefits for its taxi drivers.

How is the relationship, as described, any different from relationship between a city-managed tax driver? Aside of the star rating system - cities, having local monopoly, have literally no interest in maintaining high quality.

This is the UK supreme court (the one where the judges have real world experience)

Does the city auction the permits every year?

Uber was absolutely great in the US because it replaced the medallion system that was more of less a pyramid scheme. That's one of the big reason, I think, it worked so well.

In no cases do we have a medallion system, though. Licences are not transferable and have no monetary value.

Nobody is saying that Uber can't apply whatever terms they want to the relationship if they're in international waters and not under any particular flag.

edit: the city can require that people who live in it must work under the exact same terms as Uber, and will not be treated as employees of the city (if they can get this enacted in legislation and it has been found not to conflict with higher laws or treaties.) Uber doesn't get to require anything of local law.

Obviously different points could be raised and argued - as per other posts in this thread. However the specific points on which the court decision was based do match the relationship between cities and (regular) taxi drivers. If UK was a nation of laws, this ruling would also change the relationship between cities and taxi drivers.

But we know that won't happen - because public entities get an extra leeway with laws.