This article really hams up the language -- but that makes sense, given its author is a lawyer who's spent most of his adult life trying to get PFOA banned. He is not a neutral actor.
That said, the pervasiveness and harmfulness of PFOA (and some of its newer replacements) is a real and significant issue that needs to be publicized.
> its author is a lawyer who's spent most of his adult life trying to get PFOA banned. He is not a neutral actor.
I dislike this logic: it penalises expertise and commitment. It’s similar to the way broadcasters frequently dismiss people as “activists”. As far as I’m aware, he is only not neutral because he has learned a lot about the problem and found it serious enough to devote himself to doing something about it.
When weighing people's opinions, expertise should be rewarded but commitment should be penalized.
Committed people have a psychological need to prove themselves right and to discount contrary evidence. This is due to a combination of conscious and subconscious factors: enhancing one's social and career standing, making oneself feel better about the invested effort, etc. Among people who spent a decade or two arguing in favor of a certain theory, not many would be comfortable admitting they were wrong all along.
There is a period of time when someone is already an expert but not yet committed to any particular belief. This is an excellent time to listen to their opinions. Unfortunately, this period is usually quite short for most people.
Sometimes (as in this case), the commitment is quite obvious; at other times, it may be hard to detect it.
> Committed people have a psychological need to prove themselves right and to discount contrary evidence
This feels like an unfairly broad brush to paint committed people with. True commitment and expertise invariably results in truths indistinguishable from opinion to the outsider, they can offer considerable insight to those who will listen.
> When weighing people's opinions, expertise should be rewarded but commitment should be penalized.
"Penalized" is too dismissive, and borderline bulverism. I would say it is important to listen to the committed while being critical and wary of any bias they may have.
Penalized is just the converse of rewarded. Use negatively-weighted instead if the language is the point that trips you up, but the person who writes “Frankly, I was shaken to the core by what was exposed, yet I understood why the stakes were sky high for those seeking to hide the truth. Why it was a fight to the death to keep a lid on their secrets?” does get those words negatively-weighted in my accounting.
That negative score is added to the positive score from the expertise part of the author when I determine how much credence to give their argument.
Yes, I understood the meaning, and stand by my refinement. However the passage you quote is devoid of argument and full of emotion (and to be fair so is much of the article), it is not the type of information for which I am suggesting a penalty is inappropriate.
When presented with a true argument, information that can be reasoned about or verified, this is where penalization is not appropriate - healthy skepticism ensures you are critical of it, but an attitude of penalization adds a handicap to every argument produced by a committed person regardless of any truth it could hold.
When the argument is almost entirely emotional however I'm inclined to agree - a negative weighting is reasonable.
Was there any particular section in that piece that struck you as deserving of strong positive weighting? I found the entire thing fairly breathless emotional screaming about a topic that quite possibly is one deserving of serious attention, but I'll never realize that through the tears.
No. I agree the article is not well written, and I think this is a case where the author is not the best placed to communicate the issue in a convincing way, he has literally been personally defending thousands of individuals directly affected by the manufacture of PFOS, so it's understandable how the subject is an extremely emotional one for him.
The parent's principle is in fact quite applicable in this case due to the lack of arguments presented along side facts and explanation, but that does not justify over generalizing it to argument from all committed people.
By "penalized", I meant the opinions they offer should be weighted lower (i.e., a penalty should be applied to the weight). Committed people do offer insights. However, for every valuable insight, there are a lot of confidently proclaimed but unfounded claims.
By this argument, few CEOs, salespeople, or advertising execs should ever have been heard.
Also, in the history of science and philosophy, you’ll find that the majority of those whose work significantly advanced human knowledge were committed to their work and to the promotion of their ideas.
> By this argument, few CEOs, salespeople, or advertising execs should ever have been heard.
You say this as if it was a negative.
Besides the history of science is very fuzzy, and complex enough that "commitment" by itself is too vague a term. Also, science is not homogeneous enough for any kind of it to be a positive on every field.
> There is a period of time when someone is already an expert but not yet committed to any particular belief. This is an excellent time to listen to their opinions. Unfortunately, this period is usually quite short for most people.
Is there? Or is this an unfalsifiable classification that people one agrees with can be put in, and people who one doesn't agree with can be pushed out of?
The idea that opinions have no relation to expertise is a general argument against expertise. The magic period during which people have expertise but don't have opinions seems related to that magic period for journalists when they understand all of the facts about a story accurately but have no opinion about what is true and what is not true.
Your "... unfalsifiable classification" question is a fair one, but your final paragraph conflates "opinions" with parent's "commitment" -- a false equivalence that amounts to a strawman argument.
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My own take is that it's less about a period of time [during which loosely-held opinions ostensibly ossify into the kind of commitment that interferes with honest pursuit of truth] and more about mindset, ego and circumstance. Which latter variables are difficult if not impossible to ascertain or verify. Which is why peer-reviewed science -- in removing as much subjectivity as humanly possible -- is our best and only plausible path to truly objective knowledge. (Which in turn is not the only kind of knowledge worth having or sharing! Far from it! But I digress.)
Hmm, perhaps the main explanatory factor for ossified opinions is not the passage of time, but individual personality / circsumstances. If so, it is fortunate: once you discover an unbiased person, you can put greater weight on their opinion for a bit longer.
> When weighing people's opinions, expertise should be rewarded but commitment should be penalized.
This is straight paranoia, unless you plan on only talking to people about their job or topics that don’t interest them.
You’re clearly too committed to your opinion here.
> There is a period of time when someone is already an expert but not yet committed to any particular belief.
Experts without opinions? It sounds like you’re just talking about a toaster. Toasters have no opinions about you when you set the shade to dark, like a monster
Be fair, I’m not suggesting that experts don’t change their opinions. In fact, just like you say, that’s a sign that someone has stopped learning.
I’m suggesting that hand-waving away information because someone has some strong opinions is silly. I don’t believe someone would ever dive into something that deep if they didn’t have some commitment to some opinion about their area of expertise
This logic is actively dangerous. It takes commitment to make any kind of real change in the world. There are way more lucrative careers for a lawyer than public service.
No, listening to every conspiracy-theorist is actively dangerous. Look where the internet is taking us.
Not to say this bloke isn't right on the money. But one would certainly want to read other, less biased sources to weigh the actual gravity of the problem.
Oh come on. So then listen to none of them? Can you really not tell the difference between real conspiracies and the crap peddled by the alt-right? People really just must like dying.
Plainly described, this is a grave threat to public health being deliberately covered up by people with monetary interests. We've faced literally hundreds of these threats since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution. Remember asbestos?
Public awareness is the first major obstacle. Standing in the way of that means more people will die than necessary.
Here's the problem the commentor is probably getting at: people won't believe the narrative.
It's not hard to convince me that any type of plastic is bad. I dont use plastic containers for food. Only wood, metal and glass are in my kitchen when it contacts food. I dont even like plastic for anything else. If I can opt for something that's not made of plastic, I'd rather pay a premium than have it all if I can (obviously what I'm holding to type this flies in my belief's face, but right now the anti-plastic war I wage is a hill I will die on and it'll be a brutal death). Yet, after reading the article, I have doubts on what he's claiming.
Journalism used to be emotional only at very key, important points. The deadpan nature allowed for disciplined emotional tones to have extreme, nearly atomic impact on a subject. That used to move people. Now, everything is a life or death struggle. For fucks sake, figuring out what bathroom to use was and still is a "heated debate". 99% of people have zero issues figuring this out. Less than 1% are arguing yet everyone has to feel like THIS is what will collapse society if we dont fix it. The constant barrage of outlandish "passionate" claims to "save the world" along with the deep dark shady underworld of business, after a while, "yup, whatever". While I will always err on the side of "fuck plastic", I will also admit that I'm a casualty of the current "journalism" climate of ever increasing sense of doom around every corner. I dont believe the author even though I philosophically should knee jerk to being a cheerleader all because of the tone of the article. And given some other comments, I'm not alone.
And yes, my word choice is relevant to the theme I'm discussing.
I also agree that plastic is probably bad, but it's everywhere though and I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that it's become unavoidable.
With respect to the article, it's an opinion piece and clearly marked as such. I'm not sure if this is a difference between US and UK papers, but in papers that still try to have some journalistic integrity in the UK there is, by convention, a difference between articles marked as 'Opinion' and news articles. The writers of opinion pieces are invited to submit articles on a one-off basis and are not necessarily journalists, they can be anyone and the articles they write are expected to hold an opinion so when you read one the understanding is that it will be biased towards a particular viewpoint. So the Guardian frequently has opinion pieces written by politicians (generally centrist but from the left and right of politics), activists, scientists, etc. These opinion pieces typically lean leftish on average, because its The Guardian, but individually they are not always left leaning.
Do newspapers from other countries have a similar convention?
Defining activists as hopelessly biased due to their commitment is nothing but blanket immunity for corruption. The corrupt have no commitments to anyone but themselves.
Becoming passionate about something is generally a result of the interpretation of facts, not the cause. It's very difficult to become passionate about plastic pollution without any knowledge of plastic pollution. The only people that can maintain this fantasy libertarian opinion without enthusiasm are people who support plastic pollution because it makes them money, and pay people to come up with arguments to continue doing it - hence all people without a financial stake are hopelessly biased activists.
If they're not making money, what could they possibly be getting out of it? They're obviously insane and feeding their own egos through heroism, and therefore can't be believed.
I started reading this comment about your doubts with interest, thinking it would eventually lead to some concrete reasons that you doubt the evidence on PFOA/PFOS. But it turned out to be an opinion piece on why you reflexively disbelieve news about chemical contamination of the environment. Whatever you might say about the article at the top of this post, it’s written by someone who has done research and has concrete arguments. Why not hold your own beliefs and commentary to at least that standard?
According to Hans Rosling, his research shows activists have a less accurate picture than the general public on the issue they dedicate their activism to.
Interestingly enough, Hans Rosling's own activism revolved around overturning accepted wisdom, so what happens when you apply this result to his own work?
There is difference between journalist talking to such an expert and writing the article, than the expert writing himself.experise does not mean he will be unbiased.
You need a neutral perspective, same reason dev should be his own qa, or lawyer should not represent himself or a doctor not operate on family.
While they can be objective and unbiased, it is right to question that, when the author has a vested interest in the matter as it easy to loose perspective.
Bias is not bad in sciences. It means the person is dedicated to his/her cause. For example, if you read through nobel price winners you find one very strong common factor. They were always emotionally involved in their work.
Humans are emotional beings, not robots. If you want to have high performance, you want the performer to care deeply about his work.
Biases should not be hidden though! I think that is the pathology people generally confuse with bias. Bias is a positive thing, hiding it is not.
This does not contradict the above examples (lawyer, doctor, dev) but rather highlights there are different situations and no single approach to bias suffices.
Besides, journalism is almost never unbiased. If you don't know the bias of the writer, it means the writer has a hidden agenda. Much better to flaunt the agenda, then.
And our reaction is entirely coloured by bias and our own baseline understanding of the world. We expect higher quality argument from the side we are less comfortable with. And happily accept less proof on concepts that we are already familiar with. No one worries about bias when you are talking about pistgres.
Note that the article is in the Opinion section of the newspaper. You shouldn't expect unbiased reporting here, it's the designated space for editorializing and well... opinions.
If you have a financial incentive to do anything, your motives should be investigated if not outright suspect, even if they're objectively good.
If everything is above board there's nothing to lose. But hand-waving it away doesn't help anyone except people with motives that appear good at first blush but are in fact not.
He's learned 'a lot' but cherry-picked to prosecute. That's the difference between a biased actor, and a scientist who is supposed to be neutral and use experiments to distinguish between bias and reality.
Committed experts are basically activists, they are people with grandiose delusions who think that particular thing is so important that they committed their lives to it.
Our bodies are full of "toxins". For example, our bones are made up of calcium and phosphorus. Yet, if you eat a pinch of powdered phosphorus, you die.
Thanks, that article is a great read. This was news to me:
Under the 1976 Toxic Substances Control Act, the E.P.A. can test chemicals only when it has been provided evidence of harm. This arrangement, which largely allows chemical companies to regulate themselves, is the reason that the E.P.A. has restricted only five chemicals, out of tens of thousands on the market, in the last 40 years.
Given that we're talking about something that's practically harming the entire population of this planet there are only two groups of people. The one's that get sick from it and get rich, and the one's that just get sick, so I think it's fair to say the number of people who have any reason to be neutral actors is 0.
No, there is a third, that oh so great government that everyone seems so keen to give more power and money too. This is exactly where they are suppose to do their job yet they're so woefully bad at it. If they can't even get this sort of shit right why trust them to do anything properly.
It's to deal with the actions that have a good cost/benefit ratio for everyone, citizens and companies. If something dramatically puts companies (the offenders) at a disadvantage they will fight against that with anything they have. Hence the EPA is more like a pebble under a steamroller fueled by billions of dollars obtained by not actually caring what the EPA or people want. It's hard to move an opponent who has more money and power (of every kind) than you.
Not the person you’re replying to, but I just got stainless steel cookware this year. Covid got me cooking much more, and I actually started liking it, so I thought I’d invest in some decent pans as my non stick ones were wearing down. I am not a natural in the kitchen, and the learning curve for stainless has been huge for me. The heat is different and the pans get much much hotter at a lower heat. When you throw things in the pan, it sticks for a moment. This can make things yummy but is unsettling after a life of non stick. You can season stainless like a cast iron pan to get it non stick.
I was really frustrated after making the switch. Non stick pans are so forgiving. However, now that I’m over the hump, I really love these pans. They are so sturdy and will last my whole life. I’ve learned how to control heat much better, and they’re quite satisfying to cook with. There’s something so quality feeling about them.
After I stopped using non-stick, I realized it was kind of a cheat method for cooking. Non-stick is super forgiving because you can cook anything too hot/too cold with too much/too little oil and get approximately the same result. With stainless, cast iron, etc. it actually takes some thought to make sure you have adequate time to preheat and are actually using the right heat in the first place, but by the end of it you end up being a lot more precise in the kitchen. Once you get the hang of proper temperature control it seems like your results get way more consistent. Plus you're spot on with the satisfaction thing, it's definitely more work to cook without non-stick but it just feels better for some reason.
For pots it doesn’t really make much difference, but cooking on a stainless steel frying pan is very different, especially when cooking eggs, fish etc. You need to heat the pan first, add a bit of oil and onion to the hot pan and spread that around (something in the onion creates a non-stick effect) before adding the eggs.
I never used Teflon regularly. I did buy them because it was modern and seemed to make life easier. But I never liked how it smelled at high heat. I am trained as a professional chef and have been cooking for decades now. I rely on my sense of smell for everything.
These are my preferences in no particular order...and materials I have used over the years
stainless steel: My go to in the kitchen. It has to be thick and heavy. All Clad is great. But IKEA doesn’t disappoint either.
Cast iron: for skillets. Heavy..you need strong wrists. Never wash them. They have to be conditioned.
Copper bottomed stainless steel: I used this for a while and I like it because copper spreads heat evenly.
Copper: when I have to be fancy and serve in the same dish as I have cooked. Like with sauces because it has to cook evenly and at low temperature.
Also for serving. My grandmother kept a glass of water in a copper jug with a couple of leaves of tulsi leaves soaked overnight. She would drink it first thing in the morning.
Silver: only for serving. Hot liquids are really really hot in it. Will tarnish. There is some religious or cultural significance to it in south India. The older generation always ate on silver plates and had a silver tumbler. They’d also eat from banana leaves so I know it’s not a vanity thing. But I know there was some significance to it. I will find out.
Tinware: this is traditional cookware from India. It is used to make exactly one dish..a soupy item called rasam. This is handed down from generation to generation. My grandmother taught me how to cook in this and as a young bride, I was gifted one by my mother in law who handed it over to me with confounding reverence.. as though it was made of gold and studded with emeralds and rubies.
It is supposed to create a unique taste profile to the rasam(tamarind based broth soup with spices, tomatoes, lentils and herbs.) I was warned again and again not to use over high heat because it would ‘melt’. My mother explained to me later that at high heat, it would become a molten mess and that it can happen quickly. She also assured me that it’s ok. She herself has had her eeyum-chombu melted and there were tin smiths(?) who will remake it back to the shape you want in the kitchen.
I did my best rasams in that tho’..could have been the story. I was always excited when it came out without me melting dinner. I guess it’s the vegetarian south indian housewife version of ‘puffer fish’ syndrome. So there’s that. I thought I will pin it here.
Clay: I recently started cooking with this. I also make yogurt in it. And use small clay cups to serve tea. It’s a little tricky. Can’t use soap. Have to be soaked. I can use it only for one dish at a time. Because the odors stick around. It does make chai and yogurt taste out of the world or rather, ‘earthy’. I guess it’s an acquired taste. I like it. Don’t like the cleaning part. It will break. And pick up mold if it’s not dried out in the sun.
Brass/bronze: I could never tell what it is. I had a ton of stuff that I inherited from my grandmothers. It’s really heavy. It won’t work well with modern stoves. They have antique value now but were also used to cook.
Iron: I have a couple of ladles. I don’t use them.
Aluminum: some houses use these to cook for large crowds like events etc. to make rice or tea for 100 people etc. I don’t own them but we had a couple of utensils like this in the attic for family functions. As kids, we’d play hide and seek by crouching inside one of the giant utensils. Good times.
Glass: a lot of baking trays are aluminum. Some might even be Teflon coated. But Pyrex is awesome. But aluminum and coated with something nonstick(I never found out what it was ..maybe Teflon?) and silicone is still the way to go for cookies and quick order baking. I don’t bake a lot these days.
‘Stone’: I don’t know what kind of stone. My grandmother used to make only certain dishes in this. It was black and I think it’s soapstone. While copper is a good conductor. Soapstone was a good insulator. Super heavy.
Silicone: for the modern kitchen. In the oven, stovetop or for microwave. It’s very Meh. I don’t know what to make of it. I use a lot for cooking. Silpat baking sheets etc. I don’t know how to do any of my modern French culinary baking stuff without these materials. Like patisserie work or sugar work or working with chocolate etc.
I use many of these on a daily basis because I cook both traditional indian as well as classical French. They all conserve energy. The right material means you don’t use heat too much or that you don’t have to stick everything in the refrigerator.
You have to choose the right material for the right cuisine. You have to match the energy source you have with the cuisine and the material. Now we have electric stoves and induction and convection and ovens and gas stoves. So the cooking utensil material is meant to match those criteria. It is not a fad or a cost or a looks thing. It is about utility. And ultimately cooking with an energy source that is most efficient. It’s about controlling heat. A home cook doesn’t need all this. Stainless steel would do for a gas stove.
I am sharing this info because cooking brings me great joy. So just putting this out there.
Finally: Instant Pot. My absolute favourite. I mean. If you are starting out or an expert cook, this is a game changer. One pot electric pressure cooker. Changed my life in the kitchen during the pandemic.
Thanks, very insightful! Had been thinking about trying out a clay pot for slow cooking biriyani. Sounds like a fair bit of hassle though to clean it. Maybe a Kamado grill would work well, super well insulated and can cook long at low temp.
I recently bought a 8l Instant Pot - it cooks really fast and I’m still exploring the best dishes to cook with it. But so far I find slow cooking stews and curries on minimum heat on a gas hob for ~7hours still brings out a bit more flavour - I just use the stainless steel pot from the Instant Pot on the hob, with a glass lid mostly on. Maybe it’s because of the time the flavours can mix, or because the dish reduces a bit more this way. We cook a lot of Burmese and Indian food and European stews this way, it’s great every single time.
That said, the pervasiveness and harmfulness of PFOA (and some of its newer replacements) is a real and significant issue that needs to be publicized.
I personally prefer this article from NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-b...
(Note that the author of the OP Guardian article is actually the subject of this NYT article!)