> the second Volkswagen says you can't use a 3rd party part in your car that you bought - everyone should be up in their arms about it.
There's a risk-benefit question to be weighed even with cars; Lots of parts in a Volkswagen are sealed for safety reasons, and (in many countries) your car will get inspected regularly (here in Portugal it's an annual occurrence) to make sure your modifications don't impact the safety of your car and to others you meet on the road.
Having to re-tether your phone periodically to a diagnostic device to rekey and verify the trusted base seems like a reasonable analogue to me and that's largely where unlocking on iPhone is at the moment.
> like on android devices when you want to unlock a bootloader - a one way, single step process
I think "single step" is a bit disingenuous here: It's many little steps that all have to be performed correctly, and that then need to be sealed by relocking the bootloader (wiping the phone again) or you'll end up with a phone that cannot any longer protect your data from physical access, and may have a diminished capability to protect you from remote access.
There's a case to do this in the lab, but I think nobody in their right mind should put their banking details in an unlocked phone -- and yet that's exactly where most guidance about unlocking various Android devices leaves its users...
> There's a line here - and it should end at customers choice, always.
> it still leaves the final choice to you, the user
If I woke up to find my bank account suddenly $100k lighter, I'd want my money back, and giving the bank any opportunity to say well Geo, you made a choice to rip out the trusted base we were relying on would fill me deeply with regret for letting the Internet convince me this was something as simple as choice.
Right now, there are relatively few people in the world who would be confronted with that dilemma -- precisely because iPhones don't make this easy. Do you agree? Or can you explain why you think it would make our society better to have more people face that?
>>Right now, there are relatively few people in the world who would be confronted with that dilemma -- precisely because iPhones don't make this easy. Do you agree? Or can you explain why you think it would make our society better to have more people face that?
Well, I think you grossly overestimate the impact iphones have on financial security of people world wide. iPhones are a minority of all phones, in some countries less than 1% of all, and yet people aren't losing their life savings left and right. Yes it happens, but it also happens to iphone users - they are just targetted in different ways. And I think you are, like many others in this thread, assuming that it's all or nothing - android has a reputation for dodgy security, but I really don't think it's deserved. No bank app will allow installation on android if you have root enabled. None of them allow screen capture or 3rd party text input while the app is running. And yet, you have the freedom - you can choose(important word here) what you want to do with the product that you own.
I just don't think this would be anywhere near as large problem as people think, and I would prefer the personal freedom gained by it. Again, on Android, you can flash custom firmware to your phone, yet how many people(outside of HN) ever do it? In cars, you can absolutely reflash the ECU and break every regulation under the sun, and yet how many people(outside of enthusiast/modding circles) do you know who do so? There is no regulation there, no big brother stopping you from doing that - and yet 99.9999% of people never do it. And yes, I come from a country that has annual inspections too - that has absolutely nothing to do with fitting your own parts to a car. Even if I don't buy the OEM brake pads for my mercedes, it will still pass the annual inspection with flying colours. The whole argument that car manufacturers make of "we seal our parts so we know they are good" has been an utter nonsense repeated for at least 70 years now - most parts are not manufactured by them and can be bought directly(like OEM brake pads for mine are actually made by Brembo, so I can either pay £150 to mercedes for a set, or buy them directly from brembo for £90....exact same product).
> I just don't think this would be anywhere near as large problem as people think,
That's clear, but:
> you have the freedom - you can choose(important word here) what you want to do with the product that you own.
isn't using the definition of "choose" that I'm using, and I'm trying to make a point to you on this that I'm not entirely sure came across, so I'll try another way: Yes, you can choose to run someone over with your car, and it can happen by accident because of drink, but if you choose to install HideRoot, are you really aware of what you're choosing, or is the potential loss merely the same kind of accident?
I think speaking of the population who roots, probably not, and although most of the rooters I've met aren't on HN, I can imagine if you think most of them are, you might have a different perspective on that.
You can similarly think banks are wrong to try and override your "choice" to root things that you own, but they're also making an effort to try and keep their customers safe, and I think this is an important motivation to consider when asking why Apple makes it difficult to replace parts of the trusted base as well.
That being said, I'm not even remotely naive about the fact that the App Store revenue is probably an important factor as well for Apple, I just think that the solution has to be better/more-thought-out than you initially suggested -- for Android as well.
There's a risk-benefit question to be weighed even with cars; Lots of parts in a Volkswagen are sealed for safety reasons, and (in many countries) your car will get inspected regularly (here in Portugal it's an annual occurrence) to make sure your modifications don't impact the safety of your car and to others you meet on the road.
Having to re-tether your phone periodically to a diagnostic device to rekey and verify the trusted base seems like a reasonable analogue to me and that's largely where unlocking on iPhone is at the moment.
> like on android devices when you want to unlock a bootloader - a one way, single step process
I think "single step" is a bit disingenuous here: It's many little steps that all have to be performed correctly, and that then need to be sealed by relocking the bootloader (wiping the phone again) or you'll end up with a phone that cannot any longer protect your data from physical access, and may have a diminished capability to protect you from remote access.
There's a case to do this in the lab, but I think nobody in their right mind should put their banking details in an unlocked phone -- and yet that's exactly where most guidance about unlocking various Android devices leaves its users...
> There's a line here - and it should end at customers choice, always.
> it still leaves the final choice to you, the user
If I woke up to find my bank account suddenly $100k lighter, I'd want my money back, and giving the bank any opportunity to say well Geo, you made a choice to rip out the trusted base we were relying on would fill me deeply with regret for letting the Internet convince me this was something as simple as choice.
Right now, there are relatively few people in the world who would be confronted with that dilemma -- precisely because iPhones don't make this easy. Do you agree? Or can you explain why you think it would make our society better to have more people face that?